Author Topic: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle  (Read 13020 times)

zahc

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2008, 01:15:56 PM »
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5.56mm out to 600 meters without the benefit of a hollow/soft point?  I use .223 55grain JSP's deer hunting, but most of my shots are within 100m.  Even with the JSP, there's not a hell of a lot of knockdown power on a Hill Country white tail. They'll run for a bit unless you head shoot.

Similar experience on OH whitetails. .223 will kill them, but not satisfactorily past 100m regardless of projectile. 22-250 is better and 6mm rem is very satisfactory.

Of course even 22-250 is drifting by a matter of feet in even a faint breeze past 500m, in our experience. I think if they are wanting a sniper rifle capable of taking on mansized targets at 1800m, it's going to have a good bit of electronical goodness onboard.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2008, 01:23:16 PM »
Here comes the .338 Lapua to save the day.  Or, conversely, something in the 6mm-7mm range moving nice and fast but without a belted case like the 7mmRemMag.

The idea of a .223 FMJ at 600 yards... I'm not volunteering to be hit with one, but talk about an anemic girly round.  I'd feel awfully bad for any SDM that got his M14 taken away in favor of some souped up M16A2.  Maybe this is a role for the AR-10.  Looks like an AR/M16/M4 from far off.
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xavier fremboe

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2008, 02:41:18 PM »
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5.56mm out to 600 meters without the benefit of a hollow/soft point?  I use .223 55grain JSP's deer hunting, but most of my shots are within 100m.  Even with the JSP, there's not a hell of a lot of knockdown power on a Hill Country white tail. They'll run for a bit unless you head shoot.

Similar experience on OH whitetails. .223 will kill them, but not satisfactorily past 100m regardless of projectile. 22-250 is better and 6mm rem is very satisfactory.

Of course even 22-250 is drifting by a matter of feet in even a faint breeze past 500m, in our experience. I think if they are wanting a sniper rifle capable of taking on mansized targets at 1800m, it's going to have a good bit of electronical goodness onboard.
  I concur on the 22-250 or the 6, but I can't imagine electronic goodness that would help much without downrange sensors.  Am I missing something?
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xavier fremboe

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2008, 02:43:23 PM »
Here comes the .338 Lapua to save the day.  Or, conversely, something in the 6mm-7mm range moving nice and fast but without a belted case like the 7mmRemMag.

The idea of a .223 FMJ at 600 yards... I'm not volunteering to be hit with one, but talk about an anemic girly round.  I'd feel awfully bad for any SDM that got his M14 taken away in favor of some souped up M16A2.  Maybe this is a role for the AR-10.  Looks like an AR/M16/M4 from far off.
I personally love the 7 mag.  Fantastic round.  My dad's got a Kleingunther with a double-set and a muzzle brake.  Absolutely amazing.
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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2008, 03:22:12 PM »
That's odd.  I distinctly remember numerous Laws of Land Warfare briefings, conducted by JAG lawyers, where we were told that the .50 cal was acceptable to use against people.

I had that briefing, too.
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zahc

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2008, 03:31:52 PM »
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I concur on the 22-250 or the 6, but I can't imagine electronic goodness that would help much without downrange sensors.  Am I missing something?

I imagine embedded computers that can help compensate for the elevation difference between the shooter and target, for the coriolis effect, possibly for the wind, built in rangefinding, etc.

Of course there's no magic o computers. But I wouldn't even be surprised to see sniper rigs evolve to have the weapon setup on a firmly-tamped tripod with the rifleman effectively acting as his own spotter, the rifle being remote-controlled to minimize human error.
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Bigjake

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2008, 05:36:45 PM »
I'm waiting for the scope that hits what you're aiming at with a laser rangefinder, and then adjusts itself so the zero is as close to dead on as possible.  All computer based, It should be able to figure out wind drift, humidity, range, the whole 9 yards.

RevDisk

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2008, 07:07:11 PM »

If we ban porn among the troops due to "cultural sensitivities" you can be sure some commanders prohibit the use of .50 cal weapons at various levels.

There are four different Geneva conventions. I wouldn't be surprised if none of them prohibit using a .50 caliber weapon against an unarmored target. Doesn't mean you aren't told "no" when it comes to using one in combat.

FYI, the Army banning porn is another myth.  Sorta.  Congress banned the military having porn.  Military Honor and Decency Act of 1996, introduced by Congressman Christopher H. Smith (R-NJ), cosponsored by Rep. Roscoe G. Bartlett (R-MD), and Rep. Robert K. Dornan (R-CA).  "Family values" types, not "cultural sensitivities" types.  Same evil, just a different flavor.  The Army has chosen interpreted MHDA in a more strict manner than legally required.  Standard CYA. 

.50 cal is not specifically banned from anti-personnel usage.  In general.  Now you have command driven Rules of Engagement that may ban usage of specific weapons for various reasons.  Basically staff poultry excrement types that think combat is about action items, power point presentations and getting promotions.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2008, 09:30:46 AM »
I think you guys are missing the point.  The Barrett M82A1 and such are neither procured nor issued as bona-fide "Sniper Rifles".  You won't find them listed as such in the Table of Organization and Equipment.

It doesn't mean, however, that they don't find use as such - even Gunny Hathcock used a scoped Ma Deuce to good effect.

A similar analogy is the big gray Boeing 747 flying around Edwards these days.  The ABL was designed and built to burn through the skin of boost-stage ICBM and IRBM missiles from several hundred miles away using a massive explosively-pumped laser.  What's verboten to discuss, however, is that the nose-mounted beam turret can also point downwards at potential ground targets, as well as upwards at spaceborne targets like reconnaissance satellites.  So it will remain an "Anti-Missile" weapon, per the Special Program Office. Go figure.  Wink 
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MillCreek

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2008, 10:20:39 AM »
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A similar analogy is the big gray Boeing 747 flying around Edwards these days.  The ABL was designed and built to burn through the skin of boost-stage ICBM and IRBM missiles from several hundred miles away using a massive explosively-pumped laser.

I remember seeing that parked down on the tarmac of Boeing Field in south Seattle, after they had installed the initial electronics and plumbing for the chemical laser.  So Edwards is where it ended up.  I wonder how the concept is working for them.  As I recall, one of the limiting factors was sufficient onboard chemical storage for about a dozen laser shots.
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280plus

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2008, 10:33:19 AM »
Crap, now that you've told us this does it mean you have to kill us all?  sad
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Gewehr98

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2008, 11:47:43 AM »
Axctually, it's 20-21 shots before it has to land for more chemical oxygen iodine laser  (COIL) fuel.

It's a veritable witches' brew of chemicals onboard, too.  Think about large amounts of hydrogen peroxide, potassium hydroxide, chlorine gas, etc. There's even an airlock between the laser compartment and crew compartment, in the event that all that laser fuel leaks.  The belly of the jet is titanium aft of the wings, because the damned thing farts corrosive gas after each laser firing.   shocked

The Seattle office for the ABL program closed, and all R&D pretty much happens at Edwards, using the 747-400F flying prototype and one derelict 747 they bought as a layout mockup.  The program is over-budget and over-time on the delivery/operational dates, as usual.   undecided
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mtnbkr

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2008, 01:14:37 PM »
the damned thing farts corrosive gas after each laser firing.   shocked

You and your CPAP might want to stay away from that. laugh

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2008, 01:24:43 PM »
I just hope the EPA doesn't get wind of the effluent from that thing.  It's concentrated evil.
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Tallpine

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2008, 01:41:46 PM »
I just hope the EPA doesn't get wind of the effluent from that thing.  It's concentrated evil.

Though possibly not quite as bad as a thermo-nuclear explosion ...? Wink
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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2008, 03:34:03 PM »
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the damned thing farts corrosive gas after each laser firing.
So do I after a couple bean burritos...  laugh 
Avoid cliches like the plague!

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2008, 03:43:56 PM »

If we ban porn among the troops due to "cultural sensitivities" you can be sure some commanders prohibit the use of .50 cal weapons at various levels.

There are four different Geneva conventions. I wouldn't be surprised if none of them prohibit using a .50 caliber weapon against an unarmored target. Doesn't mean you aren't told "no" when it comes to using one in combat.

FYI, the Army banning porn is another myth.  Sorta.  Congress banned the military having porn.  Military Honor and Decency Act of 1996, introduced by Congressman Christopher H. Smith (R-NJ), cosponsored by Rep. Roscoe G. Bartlett (R-MD), and Rep. Robert K. Dornan (R-CA).  "Family values" types, not "cultural sensitivities" types.  Same evil, just a different flavor.  The Army has chosen interpreted MHDA in a more strict manner than legally required.  Standard CYA. 

.50 cal is not specifically banned from anti-personnel usage.  In general.  Now you have command driven Rules of Engagement that may ban usage of specific weapons for various reasons.  Basically staff poultry excrement types that think combat is about action items, power point presentations and getting promotions.

Porn was specifically banned in Iraq - I know. They searched my belongings multiple times and that was listed among the "contraband" items that were going to get me in serious trouble if found. Too bad the Army is so far behind the times when it come to scanning encrypted hard drives.

RevDisk

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2008, 05:39:16 PM »

If we ban porn among the troops due to "cultural sensitivities" you can be sure some commanders prohibit the use of .50 cal weapons at various levels.

There are four different Geneva conventions. I wouldn't be surprised if none of them prohibit using a .50 caliber weapon against an unarmored target. Doesn't mean you aren't told "no" when it comes to using one in combat.

FYI, the Army banning porn is another myth.  Sorta.  Congress banned the military having porn.  Military Honor and Decency Act of 1996, introduced by Congressman Christopher H. Smith (R-NJ), cosponsored by Rep. Roscoe G. Bartlett (R-MD), and Rep. Robert K. Dornan (R-CA).  "Family values" types, not "cultural sensitivities" types.  Same evil, just a different flavor.  The Army has chosen interpreted MHDA in a more strict manner than legally required.  Standard CYA. 

.50 cal is not specifically banned from anti-personnel usage.  In general.  Now you have command driven Rules of Engagement that may ban usage of specific weapons for various reasons.  Basically staff poultry excrement types that think combat is about action items, power point presentations and getting promotions.

Porn was specifically banned in Iraq - I know. They searched my belongings multiple times and that was listed among the "contraband" items that were going to get me in serious trouble if found. Too bad the Army is so far behind the times when it come to scanning encrypted hard drives.

Bosnia (TF Eagle)/Kosovo (TF Falcon) as well.  Hell, porn was forbidden stateside during OIF IV mob back in '05.  Brass got nailed for moving porn over SIPRNET.  They were eating up 60% of the satellite bandwidth, which honked off the satcom guys.  We enlisted just used external hard drives with TrueCrypt.  My going rate was $50 per hour per HD, plus a copy of all the porn you had that I didn't.  Didn't exactly watch the stuff myself, but it paid very well.  Paid a couple PFC's to sort the stuff out by catagory, another SPC to do anti virus scans.  A tidy business on a 15 month deployment.


Quote
It's a veritable witches' brew of chemicals onboard, too.  Think about large amounts of hydrogen peroxide, potassium hydroxide, chlorine gas, etc. There's even an airlock between the laser compartment and crew compartment, in the event that all that laser fuel leaks.  The belly of the jet is titanium aft of the wings, because the damned thing farts corrosive gas after each laser firing.


Lovely.  Does the crew get hazard pay for that?  Not that any amount of money would get me in a friggin aluminum can with enough deadly chems to wipe out half a state.  Gods I hope that thing is loaded to the gills with countermeasures...
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wmenorr67

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2008, 07:37:59 PM »
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Lovely.  Does the crew get hazard pay for that?  Not that any amount of money would get me in a friggin aluminum can with enough deadly chems to wipe out half a state.  Gods I hope that thing is loaded to the gills with countermeasures...

Nothing a little Gold Bond won't fix. laugh
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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2008, 12:34:28 AM »
Nice to see you military folk still have the knack for creative moneymaking...  laugh
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xavier fremboe

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2008, 01:03:11 AM »
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the damned thing farts corrosive gas after each laser firing.
So do I after a couple bean burritos...  laugh 
Where does the laser beam come out?
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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2008, 02:25:49 AM »
That's odd.  I distinctly remember numerous Laws of Land Warfare briefings, conducted by JAG lawyers, where we were told that the .50 cal was acceptable to use against people.

I had that briefing, too.

Not that this means much, but I just finished reading House to House by David Bellavia.  It is a book about the house-to-house battles in Iraq in 2003-2004 (IIRC).  The author was a SSGT in the Army infantry and the book is basically a compilation of his memoirs.  Good read.

Anyway, during the fighting, many weapons were used against individuals including the main 120mm smooth-bore gun of the M1 Abrams tank.  Yep.  On several occassions the author describes quite well what happens to a human who is shot with a 120mm tank round.  His unit also used grenade launchers (M203 and Mk19), anti-tank rockets (AT4?), M2 .50 rounds, and even the lowly M4/M16 every now and then.  Pretty grisly stuff.
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280plus

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2008, 09:18:59 AM »
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the damned thing farts corrosive gas after each laser firing.
So do I after a couple bean burritos...  laugh 
Where does the laser beam come out?
Some things are best left unknown...  shocked

 laugh
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Manedwolf

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2008, 09:55:36 AM »
Porn was specifically banned in Iraq - I know. They searched my belongings multiple times and that was listed among the "contraband" items that were going to get me in serious trouble if found. Too bad the Army is so far behind the times when it come to scanning encrypted hard drives.

And who would keep their porn in the form of paper anymore?


Manedwolf

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Re: Corps, Army want long-range sniper rifle
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2008, 09:58:17 AM »
Quote
the damned thing farts corrosive gas after each laser firing.
So do I after a couple bean burritos...  laugh 
Where does the laser beam come out?