Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?

[Ryan in Maine]

With the handouts and layoffs from big manufacturers, do you think we'll see any corners cut?

I've already heard that companies will try to adopt a more "overseas" model and cut out a lot of available trim levels and some customizing options. So far so good.

However, I'm kind of skittish about buying a new vehicle. I'm worried about lower quality parts and standards coming in under radar.

[Boomhauer]

The quality of cars produced by the Big Three are already pretty low.

If you are buying a new vehicle, buy Japanese.

[PTK]

The quality of cars produced by the Big Three are already pretty low.

If you are buying a new vehicle, buy Japanese.

Japanese cars are, by and large, made in Ohio. FWIW, anyway... 

[Ryan in Maine]

Yeah. Comparing a Chevy to a Toyota side-by-side is saddening. Comparing a Dodge to a Subaru is saddening. Comparing a Ford to a Honda is saddening (although at least Ford seems to be trying). I just wonder if it could actually turn into an even larger gap.

Japanese manufacturers make better vehicles in the US than US manufacturers. *Sigh*

[Jamisjockey]

I'm happy with the quality of my Ford truck.  Oh, that's right...Ford doesn't have thier hand out, either.

[Gewehr98]

Here we go again.... 

[Manedwolf]

With the handouts and layoffs from big manufacturers, do you think we'll see any corners cut?

I've already heard that companies will try to adopt a more "overseas" model and cut out a lot of available trim levels and some customizing options. So far so good.

However, I'm kind of skittish about buying a new vehicle. I'm worried about lower quality parts and standards coming in under radar.

Overseas model? Um. Like how Acuras and Hondas are put together like the proverbial Swiss watches? There's not a single gap between any of the panels of high-quality material in my Accord, and at eight years old, not a thing squeaks or makes any noise at all, anywhere. It's silent.

And it was built in Marysville, Ohio by American workers, so it's not really an import. It just has a feel of quality to it that of the us makers, only Ford seems to be trying for. Ford is the only one with a clue, I think.

If they want to to go for that, they need to reach UP pretty darned high. GM seems to have had this idea that they could turn the interior quality material level down to "riding in a rubbermaid bin" and nobody would notice. I've noticed when I've ridden in or tried to drive any! Panel gaps, squeaks and rattles and magic biodegradable plastic in the sun...GM, they have that. Chrysler, they have that (someone I know who bought a PT, it did not age well)...

Explains why Ford didn't need the bailout, either, yes!

(and to be fair, not all imports are good. Mitsubishi has specialized in clunkers and oil-burning engines for a looooooong time. Their Eclipses were horrible fallaparts.)

[HankB]

Funny thing . . . I just saw a report on the 5 best American cars . . . three of them were Ford products. (The Fusion and its Mercury and Lincoln stablemates.)

Funny thing is, they're based on the Japanese Mazda Six platform, and are built at Ford's plant in Hermosillo, Mexico.

American indeed.  :rolleyes:

[Ryan in Maine]

Jamis:
I checked out some '09 Fords and I was impressed. Chevy Silverado's/GMC Sierra's are probably the best seller around here for a full-size pick-up, but it seems to me that Ford is actually trying to do some innovative work lately. The tailgate step? Freaking genius. Chevy's '09 vehicles didn't impress me as much. Dodge's '09 vehicles didn't seem to offer anything except good looks.

Maned:
I didn't mean building tolerances. What I meant was available trims/customizing options. The Japanese manufacturers offer a few different trim levels on their vehicles and don't really screw around outside of that. US manufacturers offer more trim levels and a number of customizations that I wouldn't exactly call cost-effective.

Hank:
Yeah. Ford is what continues to pop up. It looks like they might make a power move, if that's possible right now.

Hermosillo? Kind of disappointing to hear the Fusion is assembled there. That's a vehicle I've been considering since you can find a nicely equipped one for a bit under $14,000.

[Regolith]

Funny thing . . . I just saw a report on the 5 best American cars . . . three of them were Ford products. (The Fusion and its Mercury and Lincoln stablemates.)

Funny thing is, they're based on the Japanese Mazda Six platform, and are built at Ford's plant in Hermosillo, Mexico.

American indeed.  :rolleyes:

They could probably afford to put their plants in the US if it weren't for the UAW.



As it is, I don't really care so much where a product is made, so long as it is made well and competitively priced.  I'd prefer to buy US, but if US companies can't get their $%^& together, I'll buy foreign.

Edit:  If I were in the car market right now, BTW, I'd probably buy an F150. Regardless of whether it is hecho en Mexico or not.  As Jamis stated, Ford is putting out some pretty good vehicles.

[Gewehr98]

They're just cars.

I've owned and witnessed Japanese lemons, too. 

You pays your money, you takes your chances.

As the world economy continues to tank, watch as Toyota/Honda/Mazda/Mitsubishi go through their own gyrations.

Toyota's already started.

[Manedwolf]

Maned:
I didn't mean building tolerances. What I meant was available trims/customizing options. The Japanese manufacturers offer a few different trim levels on their vehicles and don't really screw around outside of that. US manufacturers offer more trim levels and a number of customizations that I wouldn't exactly call cost-effective.

They're also better at dividing their standard and luxury divisions in a way that doesn't cannibalize their own sales.

Infiniti, Nissan. Lexus, Toyota. Acura, Honda.

For example, the Acura TL and Honda Accord have the same base chassis to save money, but different engine, shell styling and trim. Modular designs that are well-planned across the brands.

This was not the case with even Ford, where it was obvious that the Lincoln truck was the Ford truck with new badges, the Grand Marquis was the Crown Vic, and so on. And GM just seemed to either make a new car every time, or use the worst choices of base chassis for something. At least, that's what I saw of it.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Should we expect to see a decline in quality?  No.  Just the opposite, in fact.  Those car manufacturers who wish to remain car manufactures will increase the quality of their products. 

Ford is a prime example.  They seem to like manufacturing cars and want to continue doing so in the future.

[Balog]

All car makers, of all nationalities, turn out both good and bad cars.

However, going from empirical not subjective evidence, the Japanese makers have a lower incidence of serious failure compared to American makers for some models. Blanket statements are too general to be of much good; do your research for the type of vehicle that fits your needs. Look at the data, not generalizations.

[Bogie]

I suspect to see more utilitarian stuff, with options becoming options instead of packages...
 
For instance, I'd like a cheapo-interior, but heated front seats. I can buy my own radio, but air conditioning would be nice.
 
I'd like to see a true American-made work truck.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I'd like to see a true American-made work truck.

I'd like to see one too, but I wouldn't want to pay for the labor to make one.

[Marvin Dao]

They're also better at dividing their standard and luxury divisions in a way that doesn't cannibalize their own sales.

Infiniti, Nissan. Lexus, Toyota. Acura, Honda.

For example, the Acura TL and Honda Accord have the same base chassis to save money, but different engine, shell styling and trim. Modular designs that are well-planned across the brands.

This was not the case with even Ford, where it was obvious that the Lincoln truck was the Ford truck with new badges, the Grand Marquis was the Crown Vic, and so on. And GM just seemed to either make a new car every time, or use the worst choices of base chassis for something. At least, that's what I saw of it.

Definitely not the case.

For Japanese brands, Nissan and Acura brands have terrible track records in regards to self cannibalization. Honda, Toyota, and Lexus do a good job of avoiding it though.

For American brands, GM actually has a pretty good track record. Cadillac still maintains a distinct stable of models and platforms apart from the lower tier GM brands. Saturn also had a good track record for having unique products until it became Opel USA. The duplication between Chevy and Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealership groups falls under poor business strategy rather than cannibalization.

The same dealer explanation applies to Ford. It has Ford and Lincoln/Mercury dealerships to keep happy, so product duplication again is less cannibalization and more poor business decision (and sheer money grubbing in the case of the Blackwood).

I'll give you Chrysler though. Any company that releases the Patriot/Compass pair at the same time deserves the ridicule. Bad enough that they're softroad pretenders trading off of the Jeep name to cannibalize the Liberty. But releasing a pairing that's designed to cannibalize off of each other? Moronic.

[Manedwolf]

For Japanese brands, Nissan and Acura brands have terrible track records in regards to self cannibalization. Honda, Toyota, and Lexus do a good job of avoiding it though.

Pssst. Acura is Honda.

[Cromlech]

As the world economy continues to tank, watch as Toyota/Honda/Mazda/Mitsubishi go through their own gyrations.

Here in the UK, Nissan recently announced some significant job cuts, up in Sunderland, where they have a large manufacturing plant.

[HankB]

. . . it was obvious that the Lincoln truck was the Ford truck with new badges, the Grand Marquis was the Crown Vic, and so on.

And as a matter of interest, the Grand Marquis and Crown Vic have been made in Canada for decades, so they're actually imports.

Just in case some people weren't already aware of that.

[JonnyB]

I've been a GM owner since 1970 or so but currently own a 2006 Toyota Corolla (and an '01 Silverado). While I like the car quite a bit, the materials are below the quality of the GM 'stuff'.

Rocks and gravel that bounce off a GM paint job leave pretty good chips in 'Yota paint. Same with the windshield; small rocks chip it where with the GM products, no harm is done.

I have a small dent in the rear door that is due primarily to thin metal. The paint cracked, too, where a GM auto would not have dented or cracked.

Overall, it's a decent car, built with inferior materials, when compared to even a Chevrolet. If I had to replace it today, I'd buy a Chevy Impala. The Corolla was ~$17K the Impala is in the low $20s for a lot more car. Only about 5 mpg difference, too, between the itty-bitty 4 and a 3.something V6 that hauls ass.

jb

[Manedwolf]

I've been a GM owner since 1970 or so but currently own a 2006 Toyota Corolla (and an '01 Silverado). While I like the car quite a bit, the materials are below the quality of the GM 'stuff'.

Rocks and gravel that bounce off a GM paint job leave pretty good chips in 'Yota paint. Same with the windshield; small rocks chip it where with the GM products, no harm is done.

I have a small dent in the rear door that is due primarily to thin metal. The paint cracked, too, where a GM auto would not have dented or cracked.

Overall, it's a decent car, built with inferior materials, when compared to even a Chevrolet. If I had to replace it today, I'd buy a Chevy Impala. The Corolla was ~$17K the Impala is in the low $20s for a lot more car. Only about 5 mpg difference, too, between the itty-bitty 4 and a 3.something V6 that hauls ass.

jb

Remember apples to oranges, though. Corolla =/= Silverado. Corolla = GM K-car.

You are paying for the level of material quality in the price of the car. Obviously, a Corolla is not going to be the same as a Lexus!

[JonnyB]

Remember apples to oranges, though. Corolla =/= Silverado. Corolla = GM K-car.

You are paying for the level of material quality in the price of the car. Obviously, a Corolla is not going to be the same as a Lexus!

C'mon, Maned. I compared the damn Corolla to a Chevy! For the little difference in price, the materials ought to at least be close. They aren't.

It's not apples to oranges. Chevrolet is GM's 'entry level' brand. The quality of materials still surpasses that of the entry-level Toyota. I gave prices, even. Comparing the Impala to the Camry, for example would be a dead-even comparison. Even the Corolla isn't priced *that* much below the Impala.

jb

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

C'mon, Maned. I compared the damn Corolla to a Chevy! For the little difference in price, the materials ought to at least be close. They aren't.

It's not apples to oranges. Chevrolet is GM's 'entry level' brand. The quality of materials still surpasses that of the entry-level Toyota. I gave prices, even. Comparing the Impala to the Camry, for example would be a dead-even comparison. Even the Corolla isn't priced *that* much below the Impala.

jb

A Corolla is a $15k car.  The Impala is a $24k car. 

Maned is right on this one.  Apples and oranges.

I rode in a friend's Cobalt the other day.  I'd say that's a better comparison to a Corolla.  I can't say how solid the body panels and paintjob are, but the interior fir and finish quality in that thing was a joke.

[JonnyB]

A Corolla is a $15k car.  The Impala is a $24k car. 

Maned is right on this one.  Apples and oranges.

I rode in a friend's Cobalt the other day.  I'd say that's a better comparison to a Corolla.  I can't say how solid the body panels and paintjob are, but the interior fir and finish quality in that thing was a joke.

I don't think Maned is close at all.

The Corolla is a $17k auto - I know; it's mine; I paid for it.

The Impala is, as stated, a low $20s car. The difference is in the amount of material in the base car, creature comforts, engine, drive train, wheels, accessories, etc. Yes, you can buy a stripped Corolla for  less. You can get a "fleet" (stripped) Impala for less. The two have the same paint and glass as the 'loaded' versions of the same model, so is not relevant. With a nicely equipped Corolla and a stripped Impala, the price is barely worth arguing over.

I'd bet fair sums of cash that the Camry and Impala don't compare, in the paint and glass durability, any better than the Corolla and Impala. The finish and glass (or interior) of Toyota doesn't match that of GM, even entry-level GM. The Avalon may be different but surely isn't on par with high-end GM cars. Lexus? Probably, but not greatly better than say, Cadillac. (But no Lexus owner calls it a Toyota.)

jb