Author Topic: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?  (Read 13160 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2009, 04:48:46 PM »
they are already in cahoots  have been for decades
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2009, 04:50:22 PM »
you know what henry ford said about the unions back when they started? wanted that 6 day week later 5 day?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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mtnbkr

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2009, 04:52:15 PM »
The first one?  I don't know which union that was.  The second one would be a telco union.

Chris

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2009, 04:52:48 PM »
I try so hard to resist your trolling, but I'll say one more thing. Of course it's voluntary, to take the job in the first place. Or did GM institute a draft when I was looking?

In any case, I'm done here. Go hassle MB, he likes arguing with trolls.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2009, 05:02:58 PM »
some folks gotta work  can't be all that picky about feeding the kids. my understanding is the only way to work at an auto plant , and a lotta other places , is to join the union. thats a legislative failure.  why i like right to work states
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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mtnbkr

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2009, 05:05:10 PM »
Even in a right to work state, not joining the union means much reduced wages, less work, etc.  A friend of mine is an electrician and union member.  He's told me non-union folks on the projects he works get less pay for the same work regardless of experience or skill.

Chris

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2009, 05:08:19 PM »
I'm sure a lot of mobsters, gang bangers, Quislings etc all felt they had little choice. "I gotta feed my family, can't be too picky" is a fine excuse I'm sure. But it wasn't a valid defense last I checked.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Gewehr98

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2009, 05:09:09 PM »
Quote
You think way too highly of yourself csd. I didn't bother answering your questions because they're moronic and have no bearing on my simple statement.

What say we attack the arguments and not the arguer, hmmm?

"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

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Balog

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2009, 05:13:12 PM »
I thought I was. I carefully specified I was referring to his questions. Saying "Your argument is retarded" is acceptable, it's "You're argument is stupid so you must be retarded" that is bad. Or that is my understanding at least.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Gewehr98

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2009, 05:23:35 PM »
And calling him a troll would be what...?
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Balog

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2009, 05:39:36 PM »
Ahhh, I was responding to the part you quoted.

To be honest I think it's a fair characterization of a lot of his posting. If the mods feel it's a personal attack I apologize and I'll stop saying it.

Does this also mean you'll put a stop to csd calling anyone who disagrees with him a "hero of the revolution" and either saying or insinuating they are naïve, disingenous, or too scared to respond to his "questions"? Turnabout is fair play and all, and I'd hate to think the way to escape punishment for one's bad behaviour is to post so illegibly that few mods bother reading or deciphering your posts.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Gewehr98

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2009, 05:55:15 PM »
Granted, we aren't everywhere, all the time.

Hell, I've been pounding the pavement job-searching the last couple of weeks.

We also work on a case-by-case basis, as we see them.

Sometimes we do pretty good, sometimes we miss things.

I figured we've been doing alright lately, since I just saw this notice in the staff forum:

"This facility has gone 4 days without a Balog reported post" 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 06:19:49 PM by Gewehr98 »
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Balog

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2009, 06:01:00 PM »
Granted, we aren't everywhere, all the time.

Hell, I've been pounding the pavement job searching the last couple of weeks.

We also work on a case-by-case basis, as we see them.

Sometimes we do pretty good, sometimes we miss things.

I figured we've been doing alright lately, since I just saw this notice in the staff forum:

"This facility has gone 4 days without a balog reported post" 


Aww shucks, are ya'll talking about me back there in modland? /blushes

I generally try to avoid putting my name into open forums. Could you maybe edit that to "Balog"?  =D

That being said. LOL!  :lol: :lol: :lol:

I hope my reporting ways aren't viewed askance. As you said mods can't be everywhere, so I just try to do my part and help. Is this viewed as a bad thing by you all? Serious question here; I really do just want to help, so.....
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 06:04:35 PM by Balog »
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2009, 07:24:30 PM »
I'm sure a lot of mobsters, gang bangers, Quislings etc all felt they had little choice. "I gotta feed my family, can't be too picky" is a fine excuse I'm sure. But it wasn't a valid defense last I checked.


i've heard a similar line of reasoning, if you wanna call it that applied to folks who serve in the military, particularly when they seem so opposed to the government they willingly served, and took the coin from. the ongoing coin too in the case of those who use the benifit package after serving.  i thought its bogus then too.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2009, 07:28:24 PM »
I'm sure a lot of mobsters, gang bangers, Quislings etc all felt they had little choice. "I gotta feed my family, can't be too picky" is a fine excuse I'm sure. But it wasn't a valid defense last I checked.


i've heard a similar line of reasoning, if you wanna call it that applied to folks who serve in the military, particularly when they seem so opposed to the government they willingly served, and took the coin from. the ongoing coin too in the case of those who use the benifit package after serving.  i thought its bogus then too.

Comparing UAW workers to the military is sickening and insulting to the military. If you really want to feed your family you can get a mcjob (or three).
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2009, 08:05:59 PM »
And calling him a troll would be what...?

a handy default position if a question gets tooo haaaarrrrd.? :angel: =D
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Balog

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2009, 08:15:18 PM »
I fail to see how your questions address anything I've said. I despise the UAW, I don't like people who choose to be a part of it, and I'd rather give my money to car makers who don't get in bed with the UAW. Your questions have nothing to do with that statement.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2009, 08:30:08 PM »
Even in a right to work state, not joining the union means much reduced wages, less work, etc.  A friend of mine is an electrician and union member.  He's told me non-union folks on the projects he works get less pay for the same work regardless of experience or skill.

Chris

not on a fed job site  we got union rate no dues. and the nonunion folks could arrange to be part of collective bargaining. and still not pay dues. we had one girl at the seminary who wouldn't join union and they still represented her on pay and other nonsense. that was a low budget cooks and bakers union in alexandria.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2009, 08:32:08 PM »
in dc you hada join to work in the better hotels. you could say you wanted to be inactive. still pay dues for benifits but allegedly your dues couldn't be spent for political activity. outa 500 some folks we had one of those.

we also had a clause for chefs that allowed us to drink beer at work with the company required to provide the beer :laugh:
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 08:46:10 PM by cassandra and sara's daddy »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2009, 08:44:34 PM »
is joining voluntary at auto plants?
surely one should have the liberty to work anywhere? and since the job/law requires you to be union to work at the plant wouldn't it be an affront to their liberty to say they can't ?
or do you have info i'm not privy to?

what wages do they all make?
and what amount is it you think they should make?
simple question  i don't know the answer  i don't know why if you don't either it should bother you to aknowledge that. except you asserted ther wage is obscene so i thought you might know

could you substantiate this ?
but the organization they prop up is corrupt from toe to tip, 

is the uaw corrupt from tip to toe?  should be easy to prove that.   then again i've noted before never and always are used more often by younger folks  the older you get the more you come to realize that absolutes tend to be more fluff than fact  words like most or mostly tend to slip into conversation more lest your words be dismissed as just more hyperbole  though ymmv
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Balog

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2009, 08:55:25 PM »
Charby posted a UAW wage sheet a while back. About $25/hr for totally unskilled beginner position. In a place with condos that go for $10k (there's also a thread about that around somewhere).

Did I say every single person in any way involved in the UAW was corrupt? No, so you can stop putting words in my mouth kthx. They are however, corrupt "from toe to tip" or top to bottom if you prefer. In other words, theirs is a culture of corruption extending from their highest ranking members to the lowest supervisors. Proving it..... /sigh

Can you "prove" Mexico is institutionally corrupt? Would you dispute me if I said it?

They may have to be union to work in the plants, but working in the plants is a choice. They're free to make it, and I'm free to with hold both my money and sympathy from them for that choice.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2009, 09:01:07 PM »
http://www.financialweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070928/REG/70928003/-1/NEWS01
GM, UAW agreement cuts new-worker pay scale in half 
 


September 28, 2007 9:49 AM ET

General Motors and the United Auto Workers agreed to a new class of jobs that would pay about half the current rate, breaking with the UAW's tradition of equal earnings for union members, people with knowledge of the plan said.

See the full story from Bloomberg.


you know what a union cashier under the old safeway giant contract makes for working a holiday?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2009, 09:04:43 PM »
this article would seem to question your numbers,
and the starting pay for union workers here in va at the gm plant isn't 25 an hour

UAW Dissidents Add to Pressure
On Union's Chief
Dealings With Auto Makers
Could Damage Gettelfinger;
Close Vote Raises Questions
By JEFFREY MCCRACKEN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
December 30, 2005; Page A1

Growing resistance from auto workers is putting pressure on the head of the industry's most powerful union and threatening the tenuous ties he has forged with Detroit's Big Three.

United Auto Workers union President Ron Gettelfinger recently agreed to make concessions on health-care benefits to General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co., which have been battered by heavy losses. But union members ratified both deals by relatively slim margins.

The deal to raise drug co-payments for union workers at Ford and charge monthly health-care premiums to Ford-UAW retirees squeaked by earlier this month with 51% of the vote, well short of the 80% or more typical for union-backed initiatives.

Now, some UAW workers and plant-level union officials are questioning the accuracy and integrity of the vote tally. Two officials said they are considering challenging the results and pushing for a recount. UAW spokesman Paul Krell declined to comment.

The matter, which could come to a head next week as union members return to work from their holiday break, is another sign of the complex challenges facing Mr. Gettelfinger. In finding ways to cut costs -- and try to save jobs -- at GM, Ford and their respective former parts-making units, Delphi Corp and Visteon Corp., he is taking increasing flak from union members who think he has already given away too much. One dissident group has threatened to picket the Detroit auto show on Jan. 8, when the automotive press arrives.

Though he can be blunt and combative in public, behind the scenes Mr. Gettelfinger and his aides have taken an increasingly flexible approach to bargaining. Besides endorsing cuts in health-care benefits for UAW retirees of GM and Ford, the 61-year-old Mr. Gettelfinger agreed to a two-tier wage structure at Delphi and Visteon.

The Delphi and Visteon deals angered some UAW members. But so far, this month's ratification vote at Ford has generated the most controversy, both because of the narrow victory margin and because the proposal -- which is expected to cut $650 million from Ford's estimated annual health-care bill of $3.5 billion -- was defeated by a 2-1 margin at some of Ford's biggest plants.

"It's a very, very close vote, but there aren't extensive, detailed procedures for regulation of ratification votes in the UAW," says Ellis Boal, a Charlevoix, Mich., labor lawyer who is scheduled to meet with Ford UAW members next week.

The controversy is sure to raise questions about how much more room Mr. Gettelfinger has to maneuver, particularly with DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group, the only one of the Big Three whose car and truck business is profitable. Mr. Gettelfinger, who is up for re-election next year, has said he won't take an offer back to members if he knows it won't pass, which could be the case if he were to agree to health-care concessions at Chrysler.

Though he prefers negotiations to confrontation, Mr. Gettelfinger can play hardball. After Delphi, the nation's largest maker of auto parts, filed for bankruptcy-court protection in October, its chairman and chief executive, Robert S. "Steve" Miller, asked the court to slash UAW wages to $9.50 an hour from $25. Mr. Gettelfinger called him to say it wasn't worth discussing. "I don't negotiate with a gun to my head," Mr. Gettelfinger said, according to a person familiar with the conversation.

Soon after, he and UAW Vice President Richard Shoemaker began warning that the union could strike Delphi, a move that would hurt GM, which depends on Delphi for parts. Alarmed, GM, which had tried to insulate itself from its former unit's woes, reversed course and declared it was prepared to help negotiate a settlement.

Now, the UAW and GM are discussing ways the auto maker might help cushion the blow for thousands of Delphi factory workers who otherwise might lose their jobs and retirement benefits as Delphi restructures. Mr. Gettelfinger, a former chassis repairman for Ford, is seeking a "soft landing" for Delphi's UAW members through buyouts or wage subsidies financed by GM. He has warned GM that without its intervention, union dissidents could mount unauthorized strikes against the parts maker.

GM, meanwhile, has outlined plans to close more plants, and Ford is preparing to do the same as both companies, hurt by global competition and slow-selling vehicle lineups, fight to stave off bankruptcy. For Mr. Gettelfinger, that will be a prelude to 2007, when the UAW must negotiate new labor contracts with all three domestic auto makers.

The union chief, an Indiana native who has held his post since 2002, acknowledges that concessions have tested his leadership. But he sees even more risk in refusing to give ground to the auto makers. "We want them to survive," he says, avoiding the bankruptcy process that has cost some steel and airline workers their pensions.

"He is trying to navigate a situation that is frankly impossible," says Pete Pestillo, who until May served as chairman and chief executive of Visteon. "He is the right man for the job, if there is such a person."

In an effort to keep Visteon and Delphi afloat, Mr. Gettelfinger last year reluctantly agreed with Mr. Pestillo on a two-tier wage agreement under which new hires would have a lower pay scale than veterans, topping out at $16 an hour, rather than $28. The UAW had long insisted on equal pay for equal work.

An increasingly vocal minority in the 1.2 million-member UAW is questioning such decisions. It accuses Mr. Gettelfinger of being too willing to accept auto makers' complaints about financial distress, at a time when auto executives continue to receive big pay packages.

Todd Jordan, a 28-year-old machine operator at a Delphi plant in Kokomo, Ind., is among those critics. Disgusted with the two-tier wage deal, he launched a Web site called thefutureoftheunion.com to undermine UAW efforts to get members to accept concessions. Mr. Jordan, a third-generation auto worker, says site traffic has jumped to 20,000 hits a week from 500 since Delphi's bankruptcy filing.

If Delphi moves in bankruptcy court to void union contracts covering 24,000 UAW workers, some dissidents favor calling for a walkout at plants in Michigan and New York, where their support is strongest. That could force GM to halt production within days, says David Cole, director of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich.

"The union has failed us and adopted the company's view on things," says 55-year-old Gregg Shotwell, a Delphi machine operator in Coopersville, Mich., and one of the dissident leaders.

The dissidents have already had an effect on Mr. Gettelfinger's tactics. When GM approached the UAW earlier this year for reductions in retiree health-care benefits, Mr. Gettelfinger sought to head off criticism by hiring investment bank Lazard Ltd. to study the auto maker's finances. Lazard's report persuaded Mr. Gettelfinger, who holds an accounting degree from Indiana University, that GM's financial condition was precarious enough that the company risked being unable to deliver on existing health-care obligations to retirees.

In October, he struck a deal with GM that will impose the first-ever monthly health-care premiums on UAW retirees. The deal, which will save GM about $1 billion annually, also means higher drug co-payments for active workers. In a subsequent letter to retirees, the UAW's Mr. Shoemaker wrote: "Were GM forced to file for bankruptcy, it is likely that health-care benefits for its UAW retirees would be reduced in ways far more drastic than required by the proposed settlement -- if not eliminated entirely."

Even so, the deal won approval by only 61% in a ratification vote -- another squeaker by UAW standards.

Write to Jeffrey McCracken at jeff.mccracken@wsj.com
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Should we expect to see a decline in quality of automobiles?
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2009, 09:07:32 PM »
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081202111853AAjO41k
Resolved QuestionShow me another »
What is the REAL payscale for UAW? ?
Can I please get a real answer and not cynical views from those who chose to blame the workers, and not the damned CEOs and politicians that have allowed private companies to rape the people. The very same people blame the poor for being poor..... whom are only becoming more so and adding to their ranks from what used to be the middleclass daily.

So I am curious to know the REAL amount that they are making being in a union.
 
Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
According to the Center for Automotive Research, the average salary for an auto worker at GM, Chrysler and Ford is actually $28 per hour.

The ridiculous salary of $70/hour being touted by conservative "pundits" is arrived at by adding the current hourly wages PLUS the health benefits and pensions of current AND retired workers plus money paid to surviving spouses of DECEASED workers, then dividing the total by the number of ACTIVE workers. The number derived is $70–clearly a distorted way of reaching an average salary.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I