Author Topic: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.  (Read 13025 times)

Ron

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2009, 01:00:19 AM »
A "shock jock's" reaction is hardly proof that waterboarding combatants is torture. Perhaps we should ask the men and women in the armed forces who have been waterboarded as part of their training if the practice is torture. Mancow would probably consider it torture to go on a three-mile hike.

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2009, 05:02:35 AM »
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De Selby

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2009, 06:03:18 AM »
Isn't the purpose of waterboarding during training to teach folks what to expect if they are...tortured?

Regardless of what people think it should be called, waterboarding is obviously torture so far as the federal laws are concerned. 

It was reckless in the extreme for the administration and its lawyers to order its use.  Through sham legal advice and short-sightedness, they exposed servicemen and agents of the government to life imprisonment at the whims of whoever happens to be in charge of the justice department. 

Aside from the debate over whether it should be used, it was clearly against the law, and as far as I'm concerned the people in charge had an absolute duty to at least tell their employees. If the political winds shift now and they decide to prosecute, proof of having waterboarded detainees will without a doubt result in torture statute convictions.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Antibubba

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2009, 06:09:49 AM »
Still, kudos for him trying it.  Howard Stern's idea of torture is an entire show without a woman exposing herself.  ;)
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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2009, 07:33:49 AM »
Still, kudos for him trying it.  Howard Stern's idea of torture is an entire show without a woman exposing herself.  ;)

Torture is listening to BTLS now that they've gone PG13 again.
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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2009, 07:36:27 AM »
If a civilian suspect were interrogated in this fashion, any court in the land would declare it torture and render any confessions inadmissible.
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Ron

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2009, 10:11:08 AM »
Having endured being tortured it is my fervent hope mancow recovers fully.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 10:38:16 AM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

DJJ

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2009, 11:02:14 AM »
A "shock jock's" reaction is hardly proof that waterboarding combatants is torture. Perhaps we should ask the men and women in the armed forces who have been waterboarded as part of their training if the practice is torture. Mancow would probably consider it torture to go on a three-mile hike.
I work with a guy who went to the Air Force Academy, and who was was waterboarded as part of his CERE training. He says it's torture. Good enough?

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2009, 11:15:35 AM »
Quote
Isn't the purpose of waterboarding during training to teach folks what to expect if they are...tortured?

Regardless of what people think it should be called, waterboarding is obviously torture so far as the federal laws are concerned.

If waterboarding is torture, and it's illegal, then how can we legally torture members of the military who were waterboarded? Why aren't they suing the federal government for torture?



dogmush

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2009, 11:24:02 AM »
If waterboarding is torture, and it's illegal, then how can we legally torture members of the military who were waterboarded? Why aren't they suing the federal government for torture?




They volunteer for it, sign a waiver, and tend to not be the kind of folks who sue.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2009, 11:32:25 AM »
drewtam nailed it. The US military, IIRC, also exposes some servicemen to tear gas in closed rooms as part of their training. Yet surely spraying the terrorist suspects with tear gas to elicit information would be torture, right?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2009, 12:01:57 PM »
I never heard of him but he aint all bad
http://www.mancow.com/blog?action=viewBlog&blogID=445353524013451041

I used to listen to Mancow regularly when I drove through Chicago every day. He is pretty darn Conservative compared to most people on the radio and tends to support Republican administrations. He was also a regular contributor to that "Extreme Right Wing" news organization, Fox News. I have no reason to believe he would make such a statement simply to support a certain (counter to his own) political ideology. If he says it's torture, I would tend to believe him.

Isn't the purpose of waterboarding during training to teach folks what to expect if they are...tortured?

Regardless of what people think it should be called, waterboarding is obviously torture so far as the federal laws are concerned. 

It was reckless in the extreme for the administration and its lawyers to order its use.  Through sham legal advice and short-sightedness, they exposed servicemen and agents of the government to life imprisonment at the whims of whoever happens to be in charge of the justice department. 

Aside from the debate over whether it should be used, it was clearly against the law, and as far as I'm concerned the people in charge had an absolute duty to at least tell their employees. If the political winds shift now and they decide to prosecute, proof of having waterboarded detainees will without a doubt result in torture statute convictions.

Excellent points. My high school metal shop teacher used to have a saying (which I try to live by to this day), "When in doubt, don't".
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FTA84

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2009, 12:45:51 PM »
ZOMG war is ugly WTF LOL

Waterboarding only causes emotional damage.  Is the emotional damage better or worse than the damage caused to an 18 year old solider exposed to one of the following:

a) Seeing his high school best friend take a sniper round to the face
b) Accidently killing innocent civilians
c) Daily tours in areas infested with road side bombs for a year, watching the humvees behinds and infront of you recieving direct hits from, wondering which day will be your turn.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 12:55:42 PM by FTA84 »

DJJ

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2009, 12:46:21 PM »
What I want is for people who don't think waterboarding is torture to be waterboarded - and not for a measly 6 seconds, but (what was it?) 162 times. If after that they still say it's "just a little dunk" (Cheney's words), I'll accept that.

Then, of course, I'll expect those same people to apologize to the families of the Japanese officers we put in prison, or sent to the gallows, for waterboarding in WWII.

41magsnub

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2009, 12:59:23 PM »
I never heard of him but he aint all bad
http://www.mancow.com/blog?action=viewBlog&blogID=445353524013451041

Listen to his show.  He a raging, self promoting, arrogant, *expletive deleted*che bag.  He has no credibility with me to care what he thinks of the topic one way or the other, or he thinks he should say to prop up his listenership.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2009, 01:01:22 PM »
Quote
Waterboarding only causes emotional damage.

Only? "Only" emotional damage?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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DJJ

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2009, 01:09:43 PM »
ZOMG war is ugly WTF LOL

Waterboarding only causes emotional damage.  Is the emotional damage better or worse than the damage caused to an 18 year old solider exposed to one of the following:

a) Seeing his high school best friend take a sniper round to the face
b) Accidently killing innocent civilians
c) Daily tours in areas infested with road side bombs for a year, watching the humvees behinds and infront of you recieving direct hits from, wondering which day will be your turn.


In that case, better tell Grandpa Shooter you think his PTSD is only emotional damage.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2009, 01:11:25 PM »
I thought PTSD was psychological, rather than merely emotional. 
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Cromlech

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2009, 01:30:21 PM »
I don't quite understand the difference between emotional and psychological damage...are they not one and the same?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2009, 01:48:59 PM »
I don't understand it either. 
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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2009, 01:57:51 PM »
Okay we keep beating up on the waterboarding torture issue and almost every time it gets out of control.  Don't repeat the pattern.
JD

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FTA84

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2009, 02:59:18 PM »
Only? "Only" emotional damage?

The "only" here refers to the fact that I compared it with other events that cause emotional distress and not direct lasting physical distress.  As opposed to torturing someone by crushing their fingers with a hammer -- that is emotional and physical torture.  The "only" in no way reflects me devaluing emotional distress in any fashion.

I was simply pointing out that many people become emotionally damaged during war but only some of it is deemed 'torture'.

Here I am also trying to make no distinction between psychological and emotional though there may be such a distinction in the literature. 

The point I am trying to make is that you cannot legislate away the horrors of war, war sucks and leaves people messed up.  Legislating away waterboarding as torture is the same as legislating away land mines and snipers as torture.  War is torture.


Edit: I picked those three examples because I know personally of three vets suffering from the above situations.  My post is to point out how they are just as damaged as people who were waterboarded, but somehow what happened to them was "within the rule book of war" and so is considered less than waterboarding.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 03:23:33 PM by FTA84 »

roo_ster

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2009, 03:08:48 PM »
I work with a guy who went to the Air Force Academy, and who was was waterboarded as part of his CERE training. He says it's torture. Good enough?

No.

First off, he's Air Force.  A night without cable TV is damn near torture for some of them. ;)

Second, it is SERE.

Third, let me re-emphasize, the differing levels of "stress" considered appropriate by the different branches and different units in those branches.  According to many Air Force men (both enlisted and officer) I had the privilege to serve with, many admitted they were ill-served by some of their training and/or acculturation.  Some of the few who were really given a quality taste of suck (before SERE) were the AF PJs and Combat Controllers.  Those were some good folks to work with, uh-huh.

OTOH, my unit dished out the suck & stress with a liberality that had to be experienced to be believed as a matter of course, even discounting the wall-to-wall counseling(1) that was sometimes required.

What I want is for people who don't think waterboarding is torture to be waterboarded - and not for a measly 6 seconds, but (what was it?) 162 times. If after that they still say it's "just a little dunk" (Cheney's words), I'll accept that.

Then, of course, I'll expect those same people to apologize to the families of the Japanese officers we put in prison, or sent to the gallows, for waterboarding in WWII.

Uh, you are aware that the Japs used a form of waterboarding as different from what our interrogators used as Singaporean caning(2) is from private school paddling?  No apology necessary, only an understanding of the facts.




(1) Everything and more (save WB) that was described in the (melodramatically named) "torture memos" was fair game and used before anything got elevated to the wall-to-wall counseling stage.  If you became a "leadership challenge" such that WtW was prescribed, Lord help you.

(2) Do do justice to caning, it is not in the least bit likely to be fatal, as opposed to what the Japs did. 


Regardless of what people think it should be called, waterboarding is obviously torture so far as the federal laws are concerned.

Uh, no, that is false on its face. 

Not only did E-branch lawyer-critters take a good, long, gander at the practice (among others), but the L-branch folks who wrote the laws were duly briefed on the practice.  As we have seen in the press, those who wrote the laws supported its use and did not squawk until it was deemed a useful political weapon against GWB. 
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roo_ster

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DJJ

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Re: Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2009, 04:25:13 PM »
Uh, you are aware that the Japs used a form of waterboarding as different from what our interrogators used as Singaporean caning(2) is from private school paddling?  No apology necessary, only an understanding of the facts. 
I know John Ashcroft claimed the difference was that the Japanese "forced" the water in, while we merely "poured" it.  :rolleyes: In addition, who's telling us there was a difference? The people who did it?