Strip-search of US girl illegal

[Jamisjockey]

JJ: I know it's not a popular opinion, but a double income family could afford it, they just refuse to adjust their lifestyle. I always hate to see people choose material things over their kids best interests. Sad commentary on today's excessive, debt ridden society.

Not always the truth.  You're putting dual income families into the "two good jobs" box.  Plenty of people around here working multiple crappy jobs just to make ends meet. 

[Balog]

One can never speak in absolutes of course, but generally a cut in lifestyle would make those ends meet with one person working. After Dad got sick, died and was revived in the hospital he was unable to work. Mom raised 6 kids while working a crappy low paying job, homeschooling us, and taking care of Dad. So don't try to tell me a lot of those families couldn't do it; they just aren't prepared to make the needed sacrifices. Whether those sacrifices are worth it is another question that only they can answer. But "We just can't live on one income!" is unmitigated crap in many many cases.

[taurusowner]

What was once considered middle class is now often considered party.  I can't remember where I read it, but I do recall seeing that most familes that fall beneath the official "poverty line" have a home or apartment, at least one television, and at least one vehicle.  And many also have cell phones.  Thing like that would be considered wealthy or at least middle class 30 years ago.  It isn't that there are so many people who are truly poor, it's just that there are so many consumer products they want but can't have, thus consider themselves poor.

[MicroBalrog]

m raised 6 kids while working a crappy low paying job, homeschooling us, and taking care of Dad.

And here I thought the feat my Mom and Dad carried out in raising me, teaching me English, history, arithmetics, paying for my instruction in various languages (the primary public school was so crap I essentially learned nothing from them even though I went), and then finally breaking and paying for a private school while worknig below minimum wage - I thought that was great. Your mother is awesome.

[Boomhauer]

So? Is that a violation of the law?

The schools consider OTC meds the same as marijuana. Zero tolerance, baby! Combine that with the nutty administrators who consider the schools they manage little fiefdoms, and lack of oversight of said administrators...

[roo_ster]

C&SD:  The individual administrators can't be held liable, but the district as a whole can...


Great way to manufacture a ponzi scheme, IMO.

I'm a principal.  I'll order your daughter to do a strip search if you'll split the civil suit proceedings with me down the middle.  We'll get millions from the district... I'll lose my job but then I'll go buy a thousand acres out in the mountains and live like a king.  And I'll never feel an ounce of heat for my decisions.  In fact, I'll get rewarded.

See the (pretty bad) movie Wild Things starring the formerly Mrs. Charlie Sheen's mammaries.

[roo_ster]

Maybe they can even start respecting the dignity of students - but that'd probably be "utopian" of me.

You can get down from the cross.  If we absolutely need a libertarian martyr you'll be the first one we call.  Collect.  (Just to make it even more tragic and full of martyr-y goodness.)

   <-- Martyr Cop says, "No, you don't get one free phone call."

Oh, and a big 'ol "+1" to the Supremes on this one.

[BridgeRunner]

Ok...homeschooling?  Sorry, no.  My kid has a right to be treated as a human being EVEN if I allow her to go to school.  I'm not going to homeschool my kids because I don't want to.  The fair and just result of this decision in not that my child be treated like a prison inmate. 

It's cases like this that make me want to donate time to the ACLU.

[Standing Wolf]

The schools consider OTC meds the same as marijuana.

Does that make it law?

Seems to me those puny little bureaucrats need to be visited by some assault lawyers.

[Balog]

Oh, I agree Bridgewalker public schools shouldn't be like this. And the 16th Amendment should be repealed, Social Security should've been laughed down when proposed, and I should be able to buy a full auto suppressed 10/22 over the counter with no paperwork. Should be != actually is.

[BridgeRunner]

Oh, I agree Bridgewalker public schools shouldn't be like this. And the 16th Amendment should be repealed, Social Security should've been laughed down when proposed, and I should be able to buy a full auto suppressed 10/22 over the counter with no paperwork. Should be != actually is.

I disagree that the most appropriate response to a problem with a system is to say that people should simply not use the system.  This holding, for example, is a much better (if less that ideal) response. 

Homeschooling is, in many or most cases, not a good solution.  Not all parents are even halfway decent teachers.  Many schoolteachers aren't either, but at least there's some variety. 

[MicroBalrog]

That's just not statistically true. Mark-wise, homeschooled children perform better. And it's really really obvious why, and it has nothing do with schools being bad.

Even an average college student, operating with a single tutored child, can teach a subject better than the average teacher operating with a class of 40.

In terms of how to apply my efforts, it would be easier for me and 2swap to homeschool a child than it would be to fight the educational system on every thing we fight issue on.

[BridgeRunner]

That's just not statistically true. Mark-wise, homeschooled children perform better. And it's really really obvious why, and it has nothing do with schools being bad.

Micro, my issues with homeschooling don't have much to do with grades.  Let it lie.

[MicroBalrog]

Neither are mine. And now I will stop derailing the thread.

[Balog]

I never said we should not fight to make the system better. But it sure sucks for the kids who get sent off to the crappy schools. "Don't worry Timmy, it really should be better than it is!"

The fact that some abusive cultures mis-use homeschooling is sad but hardly an indictment of the concept. That being said, there are a wealth of non-homeschooling options that are preferable. And I absolutely think every parent and concerned person should be fighting tooth and nail to kill the NEA, allow more options for alternative schooling etc.

[BridgeRunner]

The fact that some abusive cultures mis-use homeschooling is sad but hardly an indictment of the concept. That being said, there are a wealth of non-homeschooling options that are preferable. And I absolutely think every parent and concerned person should be fighting tooth and nail to kill the NEA, allow more options for alternative schooling etc.

Totally with you on the NEA.  Fortunately, although this town has crappy regular public schools, there are some good to excellent charter, magnet, and parochial options.  We're actually leaning towards a magnet school that focuses on the performing arts--we've heard some good things and I think some exposure to music and dance early on could be really good for her. 

I wasn't actually thinking of cultural misuse of homeschooling, but of several families and homeschoolees of my acquaintance for whom homeschooling has become an expression of the parents' desire to build small clones.  Liberal or conservative or whatever, too many of the homeschooling families that I know build a micro cult of personality around the parent. 

[MicroBalrog]

For the record, I went to a most awesome private school starting mid Grade-9. It was one of these traditional institutions, started in 1863 as a Christian girls' school. It's still heavily Christian, and owned by the Scottish church. They have prayer and everything.

[HankB]

Kids today have no backbone.

In my school days, we respected the legitimate authority of the teachers & administrators, and no kid I know would've consented to a strip search by school bureaucrats; we knew they were NOT police.

Parents today have no backbone.

There's a good chance that any bureaucrat that ordered or participated in a strip search of a student would've spent a couple of months in a full body cast, thanks to a vigorous attitude adjustment administered by outraged parents.

That's proabably why, in 12 years of combined elementary & high school, I never even heard of an attempted strip search by school officials.

[Firethorn]

What was once considered middle class is now often considered party.

I think you mean poverty.  And I have to agree.

If you went back 60 years -
A significant portion of the country still didn't have electricity.  My grandmother, for example, grew up in a house that was only electrified in her teens.
Iceboxes were still competing with refridgerators
Radios were a luxury - tvs were for the richest family in the town
Cars?  To own one was solidly in the upper middle class.  Two?  You must be rich.
Homes back then - even upper middle class, were tiny compared to the ones built today.
How many people remember party lines for phones?  Where you shared one phone system with a number of your neighbors?

On the cell phone topic, I feel the need to elaborate somewhat - a cheap cell phone plan can be substantially cheaper than a land line today.  Especially if your housing situation is somewhat unsettled.

Of course, many of those living in poverty aren't actually doing so bad, because the index doesn't measure 'non-monetary' income like public housing or food stamps.  Also, I think that many under the poverty line actually make at least some extra, unreported/under the table income.

[zahc]

Great, so now when our kids get violated by government employees, instead of them punishing their own, they dip into that taxpayer coffers and dole it back out to us. What incentive does give them to not do the same thing over again? I must have missed it.

[Balog]

Totally with you on the NEA.  Fortunately, although this town has crappy regular public schools, there are some good to excellent charter, magnet, and parochial options.  We're actually leaning towards a magnet school that focuses on the performing arts--we've heard some good things and I think some exposure to music and dance early on could be really good for her. 

I'm glad to hear you have options. How will those alternate choices work financially? 

I wasn't actually thinking of cultural misuse of homeschooling, but of several families and homeschoolees of my acquaintance for whom homeschooling has become an expression of the parents' desire to build small clones.  Liberal or conservative or whatever, too many of the homeschooling families that I know build a micro cult of personality around the parent. 

1. I've never seen or heard of that, and I'd wager I've been a hell of a lot more active in the homeschooling community than you.
2. Bad parents are bad parents. "Too many of the public school parents I know just want to ship their kids off for someone else to raise." 
3. Isn't the entire point of being a parent to attempt to inculcate your values in your child? Are you claiming you raise your children to not hold the same values as you? I'm actually rather confused about what you mean here.

You've had bad experiences? I'm sorry, I really am. But making broad brush insulting statements about a group of people who are willing to sacrifice massive amounts of time, money, and energy trying to do what is best for their children is not an acceptable response.

Great, so now when our kids get violated by government employees, instead of them punishing their own, they dip into that taxpayer coffers and dole it back out to us. What incentive does give them to not do the same thing over again? I must have missed it.

I totally agree. Unless the punishment is brought to bear on the individual(s) responsible, it's nearly pointless.

And here I thought the feat my Mom and Dad carried out in raising me, teaching me English, history, arithmetics, paying for my instruction in various languages (the primary public school was so crap I essentially learned nothing from them even though I went), and then finally breaking and paying for a private school while worknig below minimum wage - I thought that was great. Your mother is awesome.

To be fair, some of the kids were older and helped out a lot. After a fairly short period (year or two maybe?) Dad was able to function fine, even if he couldn't work. But yeah, it was a pretty substantial effort.

[Hawkmoon]

That's proabably why, in 12 years of combined elementary & high school, I never even heard of an attempted strip search by school officials.

I never did, either.

On the other hand, I'm old enough that a report I had an aspirin tablet in my book bag (we didn't use backpacks in my day) would not have equated to a capital offense. It might have led a teacher to say, "Can I have one? I have a headache."

Our society has become overly paranoid (if there is such a thing) about DRUGS! For example, I take a very light dose of a blood pressure medication. So light, in fact, that although I can buy it over the counter when visiting my wife's native country, the smallest tablet they sell is twice what I take. In the U.S. I get my meds from the VA, and they send it in a 90-day supply at a time. They WILL NOT refill the prescription until I'm down to the last week's quantity in the bottle. Like there's a huge street market for 25mg tablets of Atenolol. Riiiiiight.

[RevDisk]

So, in light of this, for the parents out there; what should you teach your children about dealing with the situation where school administrators tell them to remove their clothes? 

Same thing as dealing with any other form of unlawful search or attempted sexual assault.  Resist as needed, evade, run, call the cops.  Explain that they will never get in trouble from their parents for defending themselves.


I don't think schools have magically legal right to detain children or stop them from calling their parents or the police if they are being unlawfully searched or sexually assaulted.  I'm probably wrong, and wouldn't be surprised if it was otherwise. 


Not that I'm blaming the parents or the kid whatsoever, but the kid should not have complied.  The kid was probably scared out of her wits, and I doubt the parents ever figured the school would intentionally unlawfully search or sexually assault their kid.  These days, it should be something you should teach your kids.

I try to teach my kids (the ones I play adopted Uncle to, or if I have any of my own) that no one has a right to do anything to their bodies that they're uncomfy with.  If anyone does, do what you have to do to get away and immediately call parents, police or Crazy Uncle RevDisk.  It's happened twice.  Once with an aggressive dog, the other when an adult threw my buddy's kid down a flight of stairs. 

[BridgeRunner]

1. I've never seen or heard of that, and I'd wager I've been a hell of a lot more active in the homeschooling community than you.
2. Bad parents are bad parents. "Too many of the public school parents I know just want to ship their kids off for someone else to raise." 
3. Isn't the entire point of being a parent to attempt to inculcate your values in your child? Are you claiming you raise your children to not hold the same values as you? I'm actually rather confused about what you mean here.

You've had bad experiences? I'm sorry, I really am. But making broad brush insulting statements about a group of people who are willing to sacrifice massive amounts of time, money, and energy trying to do what is best for their children is not an acceptable response.

Um, Balog?  Why do you care?  I didn't make any broad brush insulting statements at all.  I make a statement about the feeling I get from several families I know.  Homeschooling communities are pretty diverse.  Maybe the communities around here that I have explored are different from those you have experienced. 

I don't like the attitudes of many of the homeschooling families I know.  Deal with it.  And no, I don't have to agree with their choice merely because their choice costs them "massive amounts of time, money, and energy."  I really don't understand why this is an issue.  This whole conversation is starting to bear a startling resemblance to the kind of mommy-board competitive parenting bs that sent me running to APS in the first place. 

I don't have any objection to anyone else homeschooling.  I don't plan to homeschool.  I think it's often a bad idea.  You *seriously* think it makes sense to mess with me about this?  I'm kinda' surprised.  Seems out of character.

[Balog]

Allow me to quote you to explain why it bothers me Bridgewalker.

Second, you should educate yourself more thoroughly before you draw conclusions regarding issues of which you are clearly largely ignorant.  Especially when those conclusions involve someone else's family.