Author Topic: Rotate Water Supply  (Read 12978 times)

Silver Bullet

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2010, 11:53:48 AM »
I'm thinking about buying one of these drums

http://beprepared.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_137_A_c2c_E_tn_A_name_E_WaterStorageandWaterFiltration

and either emptying/refilling it once a month, or buying some of the purification tablets to maintain it with.  You can buy the drums with and without the "combo" (drum, emergency siphon, bung and gas wrench).

Since I move a lot, I wouldn't have a ton of water to carry from house to house, just empty the drum and refill at my new destination.

French G.

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2010, 12:14:16 PM »
Return to the old days. Beer, it's got lots of water in it and is pretty microbe resistant. Plus you won't care if the world ended. Buy Bud, it's cheap and you won't be able to tell when it has gone bad, taste will be the same. If you buy by the truckload you also have payroll for your new private army.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2010, 12:39:09 PM »
Wine.  Lots of wine.

In USAF Combat Survival School, we were taught that iodine tablets merely drive the evil bugs dormant until they pass through your system.  Of course, that's probably why we added lots of iodine tablets to the water we collected downstream from a herd of cattle spotted later...   :O
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2010, 12:49:41 PM »

Therein lies the rub. If you need to be mobile, bottled water is very heavy, but a water purified is portable. If you are stayin in one place, your water stock will run out faster than you think. You need another way to get water pure enough to drink. It doesn't need to meet EPA or Clean Air Act standards, but good enough that contagions are removed to keep you from getting immediately sick.

If its a short term emergency, drinking water with some contaminants for a few days or a few weeks isn't going to matter much. If its  a TEOTWAWKI situation, your lifespan is going to be cut in half anyhow, so the main thing you need to worry about is disease.

Heh.  I'd like to see how mobile you are after contracting dysentery from your filtered water.  And the duration of the disaster doesn't hardly matter, you can get immediately sick enough from one drink of bad water to leave you incapacitated for days.  

Filters are great tools for weekend trips in the mountains where your only real fear is giardia or crypto.  I question their reliability in a EOTW type event, when the public utilities shut down (including sewers and sanitation) and things start getting messy.  It's too easy for filter-proof viruses to spread in that sort of environment.  

My preference is for bottled water for as long as necessary to set up a permanent water cleaning solution.  My second preference would be for chemical treatment, for instance if I had to leave my supplies behind.  Filtration would be a third tier choice for me.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 12:58:37 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

brimic

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2010, 01:08:32 PM »
Quote
Filters are great tools for weekend trips in the mountains where your only real fear is giardia or crypto.  I question their reliability in a EOTW type event, when the public utilities shut down (including sewers and sanitation) and things start getting messy.  It's too easy for filter-proof viruses to spread in that sort of environment.

There are filters, and there are FILTERS.  Some are cheap yet good enough  for occasional camping or backpacking, some are expensive, sturdy, and made for long term usage.   http://www.katadyn.com/en/katadyn-products/products/katadynshopconnect/katadyn-wasserfilter-endurance-series-produkte/katadyn-pocket/

http://www.berkeyfilters.com/berkeytech.htm

There are other things that can be done to pretreat ground water to make these even more effective- filter ground water through a bed of sand/gravel/charcoal to remove particulates and turbulance (even radioactivity). before using the unit for final filtration.

How long can you survive on $250 worth of bottled water?
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Fly320s

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2010, 01:21:14 PM »
I'd debate that...

The small bottles are typically made from better plastic, less gas permeable and more stable.

Gallon jugs are generally HDPE, which is less stable and allows lighter gasses to pass through  it.

I'd use the clear PET(E) bottles for long-term storage. They're often identified by the "1" in the recycling icon on the bottom of the container.

jb

What about the 5 gallon heavy plastic jugs that are used by the delivery companies?
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Balog

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2010, 01:54:54 PM »
Here's a detailed lab test of the Berkey filters. http://www.berkeyfilters.com/watertest.htm

One thing I didn't see though: how well do they remove heavy metals from ground water?

Oops, there it is...

Quote
The water test below show results for the Black Berkey elements when required to filter water containing Lead, Chloroform (represents volatile organic compounds and trihalomethanes) and chlorine. milligrams per liter (mg/L) is equivalent to parts per million (ppm), as stated in this document. The lead was reduced from 170 ppb(.017ppm) to less than 6 ppb, that's greater than 96% reduction.VOC's and Trihalomethanes were reduced from 170 ppb (.017 ppm) to as low .5 ppb (.0005 ppm) that's greater than 99.8%. Chlorine was reduced from 2 ppm to .01 ppm that's greater than 95% reduction.

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jackdanson

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2010, 01:57:09 PM »
The water you drink now was peed out by an australopithecine, and by a triceratops before him, and by a tetrapod before him, etc.  

mmmmmm, triceratops pee.  As a side note, filters must work pretty well, I've used them backpacking in very questionable water sources and I've never gotten sick.  Once had to pull from a spring near a horse trail, there were stacks of horse poo 15 feet from where I was pulling.  I did have a fairly nice katadyn filter though... Now I'm looking into that endurance one.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 02:03:18 PM by jackdanson »

Chester32141

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2010, 03:28:29 PM »
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that filters are only good for removing particles larger than the filter will allow to pass.  They do nothing for the big three contaminates that I would have to deal with in my area; gas, oil, and salt water ... I realize that I could get a filter that would handle salt water but the cost is high and the lifetime volume is low and it still wouldn't take care of gas, oil or any of the other poisons that can be in water found in ditches and puddles ... I don't live near a source of fresh water so ditches and puddles would be my source, poor as they are, and I'm disabled so hunkering down here at home is my plan for TEOTWAWKI ...  =|
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Sawdust

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2010, 03:53:57 PM »
I'm thinking about buying one of these drums

http://beprepared.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_137_A_c2c_E_tn_A_name_E_WaterStorageandWaterFiltration

and either emptying/refilling it once a month, or buying some of the purification tablets to maintain it with.  You can buy the drums with and without the "combo" (drum, emergency siphon, bung and gas wrench).

Since I move a lot, I wouldn't have a ton of water to carry from house to house, just empty the drum and refill at my new destination.

I have had five of the thirty gallon barrels from that site for the past four years.

Work great; I rotate the water about every six months. I throw in a few tablespoons or so of bleach when I refill them. Move them around with a hand truck.

A buddy of mine uses the same barrels, and two weeks ago he refilled them after they had been sitting for about three years - nothing wrong with the old water.

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brimic

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2010, 04:09:07 PM »
Quote
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that filters are only good for removing particles larger than the filter will allow to pass.  They do nothing for the big three contaminates that I would have to deal with in my area; gas, oil, and salt water ... I realize that I could get a filter that would handle salt water but the cost is high and the lifetime volume is low and it still wouldn't take care of gas, oil or any of the other poisons that can be in water found in ditches and puddles ... I don't live near a source of fresh water so ditches and puddles would be my source, poor as they are, and I'm disabled so hunkering down here at home is my plan for TEOTWAWKI ...

Do you get any rain?
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S. Williamson

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2010, 04:09:41 PM »
Does adding pure grain alcohol (say, 1/4 cup) to water (say, a gallon) help prevent bacteria/virus growth?  ???  I don't really like the idea of drinking bleach.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2010, 06:50:05 PM »
There are filters, and there are FILTERS.  Some are cheap yet good enough  for occasional camping or backpacking, some are expensive, sturdy, and made for long term usage.   http://www.katadyn.com/en/katadyn-products/products/katadynshopconnect/katadyn-wasserfilter-endurance-series-produkte/katadyn-pocket/

http://www.berkeyfilters.com/berkeytech.htm

There are other things that can be done to pretreat ground water to make these even more effective- filter ground water through a bed of sand/gravel/charcoal to remove particulates and turbulance (even radioactivity). before using the unit for final filtration.

How long can you survive on $250 worth of bottled water?
I know a man who runs mission trips abroad, to places where the same river serves double duty as sewer drain and water supply.  He tells me he's tried filters in the past (good filters, Sweetwaters and Berkeys) to treat water for his groups, and each time someone got sick.  The problem is viruses.  Even the best filters leave enough virus in the water that people can still get sick from it.  Yes, even the Berkey.

He says bottled water is best, boiled is second best, and chem treated is third.  He's given up on trying to find a filter that works.  I take him at his word, he knows this stuff pretty well.  Listening to him about how "modern primitive" communities live is quite enlightening.

It's worth noting that the water found in the wilderness here in the States is generally pretty clean.  The only contaminants to worry about are giardia or cryptosporidia, which any average filter can handle with ease.  Heck, thru hikers often drink right out of the stream, and they usually fair well well enough.  If your plans are to hide in the hills until the mess blows over, then a filter is probably OK.  Just make sure nobody else is crapping in your stream.  

I figure boiling is impractical in a prolonged emergency.  The amount of fuel required would be prohibitive.  And even if you had the fuel you'd probably be better off saving it for some other purpose.

Chem treatment probably works.  I don't relish the idea if drinking bleach with my water, but in a pinch I could make do.

That leaves bottled water.  If you're careful what you buy you can get cases of 35 half liter bottles for about $3.00.  A case is enough for about a week for one person, if you only use it for drinking and rely on something else for washing and sanitation.  For $250 I could buy 80 cases, which would last 10 months for my wife and me.  That's more than I feel we need.

YMMV.  I figure in the end, the only real solution is acreage and a hand-powered well pump.

Ben

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2010, 07:18:08 PM »
My current wilderness system is an MSR MIOX unit coupled with a PUR filter with carbon element to kill any aftertaste from the MIOX. I also have a SteriPen I gpt for Christmas last year but haven't really used it much. Downside with the Steripen and MIOX units of course is batteries.
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Leatherneck

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2010, 08:25:39 PM »
Where do you live? In a dump?

Just get some filters like coffee filters and some water purification tablets like
NSN 6850-01-352-6129

We're talking survival, right?

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MillCreek

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2010, 08:56:38 PM »
Quote
He says bottled water is best, boiled is second best, and chem treated is third.  He's given up on trying to find a filter that works.  I take him at his word, he knows this stuff pretty well.  Listening to him about how "modern primitive" communities live is quite enlightening.

I wonder if he is referring to water bottled in the First World or under First World conditions.  Can you trust the local bottled water in the boonies of Asia or Africa?
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Chester32141

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2010, 09:56:28 PM »
Where do you live? In a dump?
Just get some filters like coffee filters and some water purification tablets like
NSN 6850-01-352-6129
We're talking survival, right?
TC

If that was in reference to ...
Quote
the big three contaminates that I would have to deal with in my area; gas, oil, and salt water

 ... ask yourself how much filterable water there was in the New Orleans area after Katrina ... I live in a small town on Florida's east coast, the most likely situation here would be devastation and flooding caused by a hurricane ... if you don't think there would be oil, gas and salt mixed w/ any available standing water then you have never seen or experienced the after effects of a hurricane ...  ;/
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Balog

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2010, 09:59:42 PM »
I wonder if he is referring to water bottled in the First World or under First World conditions.  Can you trust the local bottled water in the boonies of Asia or Africa?

Do 3rd world countries bottle their own water?
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2010, 10:00:19 PM »
I wonder if he is referring to water bottled in the First World or under First World conditions.  Can you trust the local bottled water in the boonies of Asia or Africa?
I dunno.  I doubt they brought the water with 'em from America, tho...

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2010, 10:00:55 PM »
Where do you live? In a dump?
Once city infrastructure shuts down, I expect the dump will come to you.

Silver Bullet

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2010, 12:41:15 AM »
Does adding pure grain alcohol (say, 1/4 cup) to water (say, a gallon) help prevent bacteria/virus growth?  ???  I don't really like the idea of drinking bleach.


Dunno about adding alcohol.  My plan was to either cycle the water every month, or add this Aquamira chlorine dioxide treatment:

http://beprepared.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_WP%20T160_A_name_E_Aquamira%20Chlorine%20Dioxide%20Water%20Treatment

At $16 for 60 gallons, though, I hope it can keep the water pure for a long while.

I now notice that it can "also be used to treat existing stored water supplies ..." so I suppose I could wait until I needed the water, add the treatment, and wait a day.  That seems especially effective in conjunction with cycling the water periodically.

Hutch

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2010, 08:38:12 AM »
Teh alcohol not so shiney...Srsly.

Alcohol has a much lower vapor pressure (evaporates much more quickly) than does water.  Regardless of what sort of plastic container you store the mix in, it is gas-permeable to some degree.  Even chlorine-treated water will have the chlorine evaporate before the water does, which is why you can prepare water to go into an aquarium by pouring into a shallow, open container and leaving it overnight.  The chlorine evaporates, leaving goldfish-friendly water.  The same holds true for all stored water.  HDPE and other plastics will allow the alcohol (or chlorine) to evaporate, leaving your water untreated.  Glass and metal containers slow this down the most, but are hardly suitable in this context.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2010, 08:48:17 AM »
But do you need the chlorine any more after it's killed off all of the bugs in the water?

S. Williamson

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2010, 09:30:06 AM »
^^Good point.

Ethanol and chlorine molecules are far smaller than microorganisms, and besides, does professionally bottled/ sealed water gain bacterial growth over time?
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Fjolnirsson

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Re: Rotate Water Supply
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2010, 10:34:19 AM »
I'm thinking about buying one of these drums

http://beprepared.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_137_A_c2c_E_tn_A_name_E_WaterStorageandWaterFiltration

and either emptying/refilling it once a month, or buying some of the purification tablets to maintain it with.  You can buy the drums with and without the "combo" (drum, emergency siphon, bung and gas wrench).

Since I move a lot, I wouldn't have a ton of water to carry from house to house, just empty the drum and refill at my new destination.

Check Craigslist. If you are anywhere near a big city, most have food packaging centers who use these barrels like toilet paper. Use them once for wine, fruit juice, etc, then get rid of them. There's a guy nearby me who makes extra cash by picking up various food grade containers and reselling them. I get the large 55 gallon drum for $15/each. Fill them with water, treat with bleach, and cap them. I also store cases of small bottles, and gallon jugs. I have a berkey filter for emergencies, and a creek that runs behind my house, about 300 feet off, and 15 feet downslope. My next step is finishing up actual barrel storage, then starting on rain catchment. I don't like having all my eggs in one basket if I don't have to.
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