Author Topic: F-22 Raptors are having problems  (Read 13088 times)

MillCreek

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F-22 Raptors are having problems
« on: August 07, 2011, 01:50:39 PM »
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-fighter-jets-grounded-20110807,0,5483241.story?track=icymi

I did not know that the F-22s had not yet been combat deployed, and that they were having problems.  Let's hope that these are teething issues that can be readily and inexpensively fixed.  I wonder how the 45 hours of maintenance for every one hour of flight time compares to other contemporary military aircraft.  Maybe some of our resident military aircraft experts can comment. 

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Balog

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2011, 02:08:45 PM »
Wow, it was approved in 91 but didn't arrive until 2005? I didn't realize it was a 20 y/o design. All those billions and it's never been used? Damn boondoggle.
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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2011, 02:16:42 PM »
Well, it was killed off, iirc with only those built or being built to be finished so we've ~100 or less F-22's. 

And as I recall just about every piece of .mil hardware has teething issues, once it goes from the design board to actually being used in the field.

And I thought the F-22 was an Air Superiority Fighter, designed to replace the F-15 and F-16. (which only later were converted to the CAS role).
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Balog

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2011, 02:20:39 PM »
Well, it was killed off, iirc with only those built or being built to be finished so we've ~100 or less F-22's. 

And as I recall just about every piece of .mil hardware has teething issues, once it goes from the design board to actually being used in the field.

And I thought the F-22 was an Air Superiority Fighter, designed to replace the F-15 and F-16. (which only later were converted to the CAS role).

According to the article we have 158 already, order capped at 188. Actual cost is over 400 million each, triple advertised cost. And for what? China and Russia don't have significant air assets to justify this project.
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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2011, 03:01:09 PM »
According to the article we have 158 already, order capped at 188. Actual cost is over 400 million each, triple advertised cost. And for what? China and Russia don't have significant air assets to justify this project.

And we're going ahead with the JSF, which is also capable of an air superiority role and is stealth.
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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2011, 03:15:11 PM »
Apparently they are amazing when they work. But at $400 million direct, plus huge infrastructure and support equipment costs, why not roll 5-6 new F15s with upgraded avionics off the assembly line? Maybe I'm still stuck in the 80's but to get stealthy and whiz-bang we gave up simpler stuff like AIM-54s that could autonomosuly engage at 100+ nm.  Build cheap and stack deep, probably wouldn't hurt to buy more F-16s too. If you have 100 F-22s and someone takes out one base, you're sucking. 500 lesser fighters in more locations? Still winning.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2011, 03:31:30 PM »
And we're going ahead with the JSF, which is also capable of an air superiority role and is stealth'ish

Steel golf ball cross section versus steel marble of the F-22.



... And for what? China and Russia don't have significant air assets to justify this project.

Don't keep up on things do you? The Chinese have already effectively copied, and improved the 4th generation Sukhoi Su-27SK as the J-11 with 120 built, the 5th generation Eurofighter (the superior to the F-35) as the J-10, of which they've built 190 so far, and are in the process of copying the F-22 itself in the form of the J-20. Russia, while not producing significant amounts of the the Su-27SM/35/37 or MiG-1.44, for them selves anyways, are none-the-less keeping relative technological parity. Also, the Chinese are not the only ones ripping off the F-22, try taking a gander at the Sukhoi PAK FA T-50.  Edit: Forgot to mention that the T-50 is the expected replacement for the Russian Air Force, and they're also working on a variant of it with and for India.

American military and technological superiority is not a universal constant, taking it for granted however, appears to be.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 03:39:29 PM by kgbsquirrel »

kgbsquirrel

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2011, 03:32:28 PM »
Apparently they are amazing when they work. But at $400 million direct, plus huge infrastructure and support equipment costs, why not roll 5-6 new F15s with upgraded avionics off the assembly line? Maybe I'm still stuck in the 80's but to get stealthy and whiz-bang we gave up simpler stuff like AIM-54s that could autonomosuly engage at 100+ nm.  Build cheap and stack deep, probably wouldn't hurt to buy more F-16s too. If you have 100 F-22s and someone takes out one base, you're sucking. 500 lesser fighters in more locations? Still winning.

Quality over quantity. It doesn't matter if you have 10 F-15's to their one J-20, if the F-15's can never see or shoot at them and are blown out of the sky before they even know they are in a fight.

drewtam

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2011, 04:53:10 PM »
Why would we still put people in fighter aircraft?

The F-22 and F-35 were obsolete on arrival.

A remote control fighter with limited self directive can out stealth, out turn, out climb, and out loiter any manned aircraft, while using less fuel and carrying more ammo.

Using drones for strike attacks reduces the need for fighter escort in the first place.
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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2011, 05:29:17 PM »
American military and technological superiority is not a universal constant, taking it for granted however, appears to be.

Ayup.  I am sure folks were making the same, "Hey, why don't we refurb the F-86 instead of buying the F-100/101/102/104/14/16/18?" back in the day.

Quality over quantity. It doesn't matter if you have 10 F-15's to their one J-20, if the F-15's can never see or shoot at them and are blown out of the sky before they even know they are in a fight.

This counts on land as well, WRT better sensors.  Guns, missiles, armor doesn;t mean much when the other guy can see and react in a timely manner.

Why would we still put people in fighter aircraft?

The F-22 and F-35 were obsolete on arrival.

A remote control fighter with limited self directive can out stealth, out turn, out climb, and out loiter any manned aircraft, while using less fuel and carrying more ammo.

Using drones for strike attacks reduces the need for fighter escort in the first place.

Yeah, but no.

No AI is going to out-think a seasoned pilot. 

And latency for RPVs piloted by the most experienced guy is likely to get them destroyed.  Especially once the enemy figures out which freq he's using to maintain commo with the RPV.  That assumes you can get commo to your RPV in anything like a timely manner.  Then, factor in the deadly serious matter of autonomous engagement and you can expect a human in the engagement loop for the foreseeable future.  For air superiority missions, human in the loop means a human in the cockpit.

Air superiority fighters do more than escort strike planes.  They do things like protect the fleet, friendly air space, recon, all sorts of stuff.  Also, ask any infantryman how comfy he would feel having the CAS mission he called being executed by an autonomous UAV.

For some missions in some cases, RPVs and autonomous UAVs are a terrific improvement.  But, there are WAY too many circumstances that require a living, thinking human to make judgment calls and/or timely decisions.
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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2011, 05:59:13 PM »
We still should not put our eggs in one basket. Our airborne command and control is going to track whatever anyone sends out in the forseeable future. Have some stealth sure, but we need lots of capable frontline multirole aircraft. We will never afford all the F-22s we need. We will hoard them and not send them for fear of loss, much like the B-1B. We will lose aircraft in a real fight no matter what they are. An F-16 is eminently more replaceable, logistically sustainable, and repairable than the latest toy. If we have 180 F-22s the loss of ever one will be felt. Losses will not be able to be replaced within the timeframe of the fight we are in now.

You know, the A-10 was obsolete until we needed to smoke a bunch of tanks and mountaintop hideouts.
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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2011, 06:26:16 PM »
The F-22 was limited because they are developing the F-35 JSF. 

And yes, we still need planes with a human in them who can make a decision RFN.  The drone's are a great addition to the force, that allows us to send a plane, where we don't risk a pilot (or Multi-million dollar plane). 

Having more then one variety of arrow in your quiver gives one the flexibility to respond appropriately or overwhelmingly.
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zahc

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 06:31:28 PM »
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Build cheap and stack deep

I subscribe to this philosophy myself, and it disappoints me to see that our military strategy is so influenced by what amounts to pork-barrel politics and good salesmanship by the military contractors. The fact is, these planes are supposedly designed for war. I don't have faith that we could maintain the ability to support a fleet of these in a real live war. To me, it's pure vanity and it's making a very grave mistake of assuming the US will always be on top of any military situation.

When I was watching the JSF program on Discovery channel, back when they were still bidding for the contract, one of the planes (I believe it was the one that won the contract) was behind schedule because the airframe depended on an absolutely massive titanium forging aft of the cockpit, and there is only one vertical mill in the country big enough to do the machine work. Seriously? On a supposed warplane? Does anyone believe we will be able to crank these things out as they get sunk to the bottom of the ocean? Does anyone believe we will be able to source enough titanium to make them in the middle of war?

Who won the tank battle in WWII? The vastly superior Tiger tanks or the hoards of cheap Sherman tanks?

I would be much more confident if we had updated F-16/18/15, warthogs, and other proven planes, and we had lots of them, stored about the country.

Our military strategists are so thick, I fully expect our next conflict to start out with a Pearl Harbor Redux. Only this time, the US will not have the manufacturing infrastructure to rebuild its fleet of super-whizbang fapfighters.
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birdman

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2011, 08:38:37 PM »
According to the article we have 158 already, order capped at 188. Actual cost is over 400 million each, triple advertised cost. And for what? China and Russia don't have significant air assets to justify this project.

You succumbed to the same logic failure that congress continually does w.r.t. acquisition costs.  The RECURRING cost of an f-22 isn't $400M, just like the B-2 recurring cost isn't $2B. (it's about $100-150M and $500M respectively)

The "cost per airplane" always thrown out by the media is the program cost, divided by the number of aircraft (thus including RDT&E, which is extremely high for first-of-a-kind aircraft like these).

For instance, the B-2 program was about $45B, of which only $11B was the actual aircraft produced.  The original ATB program was supposed to be 130-140 aircraft (if I remember correctly) for a total of $100B, or about $750M per.  Congress said "$100B and $750M/aircraft?!  That's too much!  So they (making the I correct assumption of marginal cost, start by saying "well, if we cut it to 100, we will save $30 billion ($750M times 40 a/c cut)...of course, this only saves $20B, since only the recurring $500M per plane is cut--now the 100 planes "cost" $800M each.  So time goes on, RDTE cost increase, so more marginal costs are cut...reducing the order further...now congress has 70 planes for $70B, and says "a billion a plane?!" let's save $50 billion by cutting it to 20 planes....and voila, $45 billion program for 21/22 planes :(

This also happened with the F-22, F-35, DDG-1000, seawolf, and a variety of other programs--seems our dear leaders seem to forget economy of scale and cost amortization--AND they do this cutting after most of the RDTE expenses are sunk---this is why we spend so much, and get so little, it's because we continually "waste" the front end costs of programs because we 1. Aren't allowed to do multiple-year budgeting and appropriations, and 2. Dumb leaders.

Another thing--congress always tries to reduce per year costs by stretching programs, when it has been conclusively proven that total program costs RISE when stretched--typically a 10% stretch results in a 5% cost increase, so less than half of the per-year reductions are realized...they then compensate by cutting procurement, which only reduces end-year costs, not current, and results not only in the above cycle, but also in a continued schedule slip that drives up costs.  Since the bulk of RDTE expenses are labor related, program stretch often results in a 1:1 increase in RDTE costs--that's why the RDTE expenses are so high.  ATB and ATF both had their RDTE times stretched by 50-100%, with commensurate increases in costs...which lead to their abysmal production numbers as the marginal costs were then cut.

If congress and the civilian DOD simply decided (early) which programs are delayed through an actual STOP, they could fully fund 80% of programs, instead of 80% funding 100% of programs...the former would result in minimal cost growth, and a savings compared to the latter of 10-20%, which would then allow fully (but delayed) funding of the remaining programs--with a huge increase in results.  Since most program cost curves are front loaded (RDTE), followed by steady-state, and then a decline post-procurement, staggering the RDTE expenses across the services for big programs would not only reduce the cost per unit capability curve, as a whole, but result in a net schedule reduction for each increment in capability.

Basically--if you need a new bomber, a new fighter, a new sub, a new destroyer, a new tank, a new APC, a new....   Pick the most important ones that address the biggest capability gaps, do those first, fully funded and on schedule, then the next, then the next.  This way, you can keep budgets under control--let's say most programs if fully funded are a 5-10-20 timefram (years RDTE, production, sustainment), staggering the program starts for each service by 5 years (and let's say 4 major programs per service, e.g. A bomber, fighter, tanker, and helo, or a sub, carrier, amphib, and destroyer, or a MBT, APC, truck, and helo), all 4 would be through RDTE in 20 years (about 20% longer than now), but you would have 3 of 4 years earlier, at lower cost...which also would reduce O&M costs of fixing the older equip those 3 of 4 are replacing.
Note, this does require multiple-year appropriations and budgeting to prevent program reallocation and stretch, otherwise the gains are totally lost

This isn't news...this is basically the recommendation of most procurement reform proposals, books on the subject, etc.

Funny thing is, congress screams at DOD to reduce costs, when it's congressional micromanagement and budget process that keep DOD from reforming to reduce costs.

Argh.  Now I'm all pissed off :(

French G.

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2011, 10:12:16 PM »
On the cost thing anytime you go to a revolutionary platform you have huge associated costs with facilities and support equipment upgrades. Hey, they upgraded my Tarawa class to support the Osprey. 5 months in the shipyard, lots of crazy mods. I think it may have made one deployment after I left with V-22s. Then it decommissioned. Hey, good way to spend a few million there. We do those things time and again. That's why, despite being a tactically inferior aircraft to the best possible, the F-18E/F Super Hornet was a good buy for the Navy. A lot of similar support equipment, very similar training pipeline much less expense to get pilots and maintainers up to speed. Vastly different than the A/B/C/D series, but same enough. A big economy of the F-16 was in using the GE F-110 engine. Proven, high rate of production, extremely reliable, common to foreign nations and other aircraft such as F-15, used to be F-14 too. Not run out and build something crazy new and then source it from 37 congressional districts. Production line motor all day long.
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drewtam

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2011, 10:26:27 PM »
My comments are based on a aircraft that is remote guided and human directed engagement directives, but once combat is initiated; takes on a lot more self direction.

AI has certainly gotten to the point where it is a better fighter tactician than an average human. Maybe not against the best pilots, but that is only a software/hardware upgrade away in the very near future. Especially as practical experience with the tech is developed.

With a better power to weight ratio, and higher sustained turning gee's; it'll easily out maneuver the human even if he was a master tactician.

Compound that with the inherent cheapness of unmanned aircraft. The UCAVs could have a 2:1 or 3:1 numerical advantage over any foe.
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birdman

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2011, 10:38:43 PM »
That and (flashback to the statement being made early in Vietnam) dogfights just don't happen anymore.  Especially if both forces have 4/5th generation fighters, air superiority will be established BVR with only follow-up done with short range stuff.  up against a country like china, it will be who can out the most BVR missiles in the air first, and who can have the most of theirs survive the response.  Future air combat is going to be minimal human flown aircraft each with a swarm of UCAV's...it's already in planning...

To quote the CNO...the f-35 will be the last manned major aircraft the navy will purchase.

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2011, 11:54:16 PM »
Read Dale Brown's later novels. He was writing about AI-controlled fighters ten or fifteen years ago.
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Scout26

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2011, 02:13:53 AM »
I subscribe to this philosophy myself, and it disappoints me to see that our military strategy is so influenced by what amounts to pork-barrel politics and good salesmanship by the military contractors. The fact is, these planes are supposedly designed for war. I don't have faith that we could maintain the ability to support a fleet of these in a real live war. To me, it's pure vanity and it's making a very grave mistake of assuming the US will always be on top of any military situation.

When I was watching the JSF program on Discovery channel, back when they were still bidding for the contract, one of the planes (I believe it was the one that won the contract) was behind schedule because the airframe depended on an absolutely massive titanium forging aft of the cockpit, and there is only one vertical mill in the country big enough to do the machine work. Seriously? On a supposed warplane? Does anyone believe we will be able to crank these things out as they get sunk to the bottom of the ocean? Does anyone believe we will be able to source enough titanium to make them in the middle of war?

Who won the tank battle in WWII? The vastly superior Tiger tanks or the hoards of cheap Sherman tanks?

I would be much more confident if we had updated F-16/18/15, warthogs, and other proven planes, and we had lots of them, stored about the country.

Our military strategists are so thick, I fully expect our next conflict to start out with a Pearl Harbor Redux. Only this time, the US will not have the manufacturing infrastructure to rebuild its fleet of super-whizbang fapfighters.


Really?!?!

And just who is going to fly these "built cheap and stacked deep" aircraft??  Just anybody who happens to find 'em once the shooting starts?  I mean it's not like they need any maintenance or ground support folks to fuel 'em, arm 'em and make sure the engine won't crap-out in mid-air. Right?  These magical aircraft that don't require trained pilots or ground support staff (or infastructure like an airfield), what are they again?  I cause recall a whole heap of folks in Air Force Green pickle suits at Bitburg, Spangdahlem, Hahn, Ramstein, Sembach and Zweibrucken when I was stationed in Baumholder and all we had at those bases were F-15's,  F-16's, and A-10's .

Our entire strategy is based on the premise that our quality, not just equipment, but also people will win the day.

And it wasn't a bunch of Sherman Tanks that beat the Mark VI's, Panthers and Tigers, it was the P-47 and the Mosquito's providing CAS after the Mustangs and Hurricanes wiped the Luftwaffe from the sky.  Because we had pilots who were better trained in better aircraft.  (Our pilots had far more training time the Luftwaffe (and the Japanese also)).

Chances are we aren't going to have time to build the "Arsenal of Democracy" again.  The next war, like the last couple have been, "Run what ya brung"

We can't match the Chinese (or Indians or Russians or Norks) man for man in uniform.  So we have to have the qualitative edge, in both equipment and people.

And we've got to make sure that no one ever gets the notion that we've become "beatable".
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

French G.

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2011, 03:31:25 AM »
Quote
Chances are we aren't going to have time to build the "Arsenal of Democracy" again.  The next war, like the last couple have been, "Run what ya brung"
I agree, so it ought to be field sustainable as possible with spares back home.

Quote
And just who is going to fly these "built cheap and stacked deep" aircraft??
That's why we have reserve forces. Also, many pilots are healthy after rendering an aircraft completely unflyable.

More aircraft=more spare parts both on the ground and in the supply pipeline. If I'm stuck say in Guam and it's a shooting war I want 50 F-18s because I can steal parts when Fed-ex quits supporting us because they either got blown out of the sky or bought by the Chinese, whichever comes first. 10 F-22s? Not so much.

I read the sports page in every aviation safety magazine I get. In back they list the recent class A mishaps. You know how many aircraft we destroy with no one shooting at us? Better have spares. Every time Captain Holdmybeerandwatchthis augers in an F-22 there goes better than 0.5% of the fleet.

Qualitative edge, I believe we maintain it with the current generation of fighters, advanced avionics and armament, as well as airborne surveillance/countermeasures. I believe in a small core of advanced manned and unmanned aircraft. I think the manned combat aircraft will be here longer than its naysayers. UAVs often rely on something we can't guarantee, control of space. We're running around actively trying to give up that control that our navigation and datalinks depend on. We won't spend the piddling money on some more F-22s, we certainly won't pony up to the bill that staying ahead in space will cost us.

China can't even build a quiet nuke sub, I suspect it will be some time before they can field significant quantities of their F-22 knock-off.

I agree that if we'd sign up to build 500 F-22s the unit cost would go way down. Especially if we did radical things like built them in one place.  ;/ But we lack that political will so we'll spend 3 times the money trying to develop and test cheaper stopgap measures.

If I'm our adversary and I see 188 fighters that cannot be defeated aloft I start looking for ways to defeat them when they are not aloft. I step up my hacking efforts of the military I oppose. I learn all the aircraft's secrets. I screw up the markets for the raw materials*, maybe if we're going to have a shooting war some of my countrymen are the friendly service staff the Langley AFB maintainers see everyday as they visit the mobile canteen where we sell them burgers and fries right next to the flightline and all those magnificent parked aircraft. Who knows, but there are more ways to get rid of a fighter aircraft other than sticking a missile up its tailpipe. The higher the value target, the more means become reasonable.

P.S. If we go for the sabotage route, we'll make sure the same day an inbound container ship runs aground on the Hampton Roads tunnel, drifts sideways and capsizes, spilling its containers right into the narrow channel. Who says counterflooding the wrong way isn't fun? We'll shoot for Christmas maybe when 4-5 of your pretty carriers are home for the holidays. You have 11 right?


*Speaking of going to war with the military we have, good luck sustaining a conflict with China or a conflict that China disapproves of. Rare earths, metals, etc, they can strangle the world markets.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2011, 04:05:54 AM »
Quote
And we've got to make sure that no one ever gets the notion that we've become "beatable" .


I'm no longer 100% sure we aren't beatable. Only because of our current leadership.
China is big enough to make a strong showing right now. If the current admin gets it's way with the talked about cuts to defense it won't be long before China being militarily superior in a conventional conflict is the better bet.
If Obama gets a 2nd term it would not be beyond the realm of possibility to see China make a military move against the US. Likely start out with taking Taiwan back and see how far they can push Obama.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

French G.

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2011, 04:20:00 AM »
That's my wild prediction. 2014, shooting war with China. I made that WAG about 5 years ago. Russia's problem too. China is going to want more resources and lebensraum, easier to get that going to sea and north than it is dealing with the Himalyas.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Scout26

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2011, 04:25:04 AM »
Yeah, but they have studied the lesson the Japanese didn't learn before WWII.


Don't go to war with your biggest trading partner.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

MechAg94

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2011, 09:11:52 AM »
Yeah, but they have studied the lesson the Japanese didn't learn before WWII.


Don't go to war with your biggest trading partner.
No, it is "Don't go to war when you have zero raw materials."

or

"Don't pick a fight with the guy on the right when the guy on the left is the one you want."

“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: F-22 Raptors are having problems
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2011, 09:15:11 AM »
Quote
More aircraft=more spare parts both on the ground and in the supply pipeline. If I'm stuck say in Guam and it's a shooting war I want 50 F-18s because I can steal parts when Fed-ex quits supporting us because they either got blown out of the sky or bought by the Chinese, whichever comes first. 10 F-22s? Not so much.
Except what you fail to see if that those 10 F-22's would wipe the sky with the 50 F-18's you want according all the testing and simulation they have done.  The stealth capability of the F-22 gives it a huge, huge advantage. 

Also, for those who want to wait for the Joint Strike Fighter, it remains continually delayed and costs are going up so much it will likely end up being more expensive than the F-22's and probably less capable.  Of course, that assumes they ever actually get built. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge