Author Topic: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)  (Read 8091 times)

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« on: December 10, 2012, 10:31:25 AM »
http://washingtonexaminer.com/jim-demint-was-the-libertarian-hero-of-the-senate/article/2515445?custom_click=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter#.UMX5YXf0-tp


Quote
For libertarians, Christian conservative pro-lifer Jim DeMint was the best thing to come through the Senate in decades. DeMint, quitting early to run the conservative Heritage Foundation, embodied an underappreciated fact of life in Washington: The politicians who most consistently defend economic liberty are the cultural conservatives.


Quote
DeMint and others could make deeper philosophical arguments about family, church and community as counterweights to state power, but there are also the basic facts on the ground: The best fiscal conservatives in politics are all social conservatives. Look at the Club for Growth scorecard again. All the most fiscally conservative senators are pro-life. You have to go down to No. 27 in the Club's rankings -- Mark Kirk -- to find a pro-choicer.

Self-described "fiscal conservatives and social moderates(1)" almost never end up being both. Most end up embracing taxes, regulation and spending like Mark Kirk, with a Club for Growth lifetime score of 52 percent. The rest become pro-lifers like Pat Toomey.


Do read the whole thing and appreciate that it was a social conservative that was instrumental in getting the most classically conservative folks elected to the Senate.

Reading it, I was reminded of a scene from Chasing Amy (NSFW, audio, you've been warned):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTKTh2MRm-w
[FTR, "male-affectionate, easy to get along with, non-political lesbian" = socially liberal, fiscally conservative policritter]


Also, my favorite scene from Chasing Amy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0VZj-85E5o
Gentrification!
I just about fell outta my chair at that.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 10:47:20 AM by roo_ster »
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,986
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2012, 10:52:06 AM »
False assumptions.

Passing balanced spending bills and keeping Leviathan in check has nothing to do, for or against, abhorshins.

Just because there ARE NO LIBERTARIANS (except Ron Paul, who has a 100% libertarian voting record in direct contrast to your bolded assertion in your second quote) in Congress, does not mean that social conservatives are the champions of libertarianism.

I fail to grasp how social conservatives have any bearing on libertarianism.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,986
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2012, 10:58:29 AM »
To further expand, Libertarians are mostly concerned with DESTROYING THE RING OF POWER, using a Lord of the Rings analogy.

Conservatives think they are Saruman or Gandalf, wanting to take the ring themselves and use it to undo wrongs they perceive (abhorshins, flag burning, etc).  But, we see through the Bush II presidency with a GOP majority everywhere, that all we get is authoritarianism.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2012, 11:02:17 AM »
False assumptions.

Passing balanced spending bills and keeping Leviathan in check has nothing to do, for or against, abhorshins.

Just because there ARE NO LIBERTARIANS (except Ron Paul, who has a 100% libertarian voting record in direct contrast to your bolded assertion in your second quote) in Congress, does not mean that social conservatives are the champions of libertarianism.

I fail to grasp how social conservatives have any bearing on libertarianism.

Rand Paul is pro-life and against gay marriage.  Also, for both misconstruing the argument and not seeing any correlation what it has been demonstrated, I think you just earned a bunny with a pancake on its head:
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2012, 11:04:29 AM »
He isn't saying social conservatives = libertarians

He is saying elected libertarians = libertarians who are social conservatives.

The rest of the libertarian crowd is too busy maintaining philosophical purity or getting stoned.  :laugh:

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,986
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2012, 11:08:39 AM »
Rand Paul is pro-life and against gay marriage.  Also, for both misconstruing the argument and not seeing any correlation what it has been demonstrated, I think you just earned a bunny with a pancake on its head:


Rand Paul is NOT his father.




Rand Paul is NOT a libertarian.


Again, you miss the point.  Dems/Repubs all want to control.  Libertarians want to un-control.  I don't think you understand what libertarianism actually is.


Just because 1 Republican actually tended to vote to reduce taxes, doesn't mean he's a Libertarian or a stepfather figure for us poor underrepresented Libertarians out there.  DeMint voted Yea for NDAA last year.  DeMint voted for the Patriot Act, and its expansion later.  That is BUILDING the ring of power, not destroying it.

I don't care how many taxes social conservatives end up cutting.  If they pass ONE MORE LAW in this country full of trillions of words of law already, they have lost the point.  
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,986
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2012, 11:10:33 AM »
He isn't saying social conservatives = libertarians

He is saying elected libertarians = libertarians who are social conservatives.

The rest of the libertarian crowd is too busy maintaining philosophical purity or getting stoned.  :laugh:



DeMint is NOT a libertarian.  He may be Tea Party GOP...  But he ain't a libertarian.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,986
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2012, 11:16:23 AM »
The cited article even lies about DeMint's NDAA vote, trying to re-write history.

Quote
When DeMint departs from Republican orthodoxy, it's in the libertarian direction. He broke with his party just after Thanksgiving, when he voted to bar indefinite detention of Americans suspected of terrorism. Then he voted against the National Defense Authorization Act, a bugbear of civil libertarians.

It minces words, obfuscating the 2012 NDAA which is the big detention bugaboo with libertarians, and 2013, which is just another annual NDAA which happens every year for defense appropriations. 


Actually, DeMint voted FOR NDAA in 2012:


http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/112-2011/s218
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2012, 11:29:53 AM »
Ron Paul is also quite socially conservative, what with eh pro-life view & all.  Heck, check out the following:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/15/bruno-fools-ron-paul-by-t_n_187187.html

Quote
PAUL: We were in a studio situation. I wasn't invited to a hotel room. A studio situation where they had a lot of lights burn and blaze and all kinds of commotion. They said -- better get in this back room here. And all of a sudden, I was in this room, which they had it all fixed up as a bedroom. So, getting me there was sort of dishonesty. Getting me into the interview.


I was expecting an interview on Austrian economics. So, that didn't turn out that way. But, by the time he started pulling his pants down, I, What is going on here? I ran out of the room. This interview has ended.

When this all gets out, I'm probably going to have to apologize to my supporters because I think most of them are going to figure out why in the world didn't I sock this guy in the nose?

SLIWA: You ran out. But, did you actually see the original Borat film where he pulls these kinds of stunts?

PAUL: No, no. Movies I used to see are 'Sound of Music.' Tonight, I was sitting here watching 'Gone with the Wind.' So, I don't watch that kind of stuff. And I understand he makes a lot of money. But, if he makes a lot of money, I have to permit the market to do this.

I don't like the idea that he lies his way into an interview. That to me is fraud. But, the fact that he has raunchy material and people buy into it, it's sort of sad that that is a reflection of our culture. To me, it's a real shame that people are going to reward him with millions and millions of dollars for being so crass.


SLIWA: And you know he might actually end up using that piece to promote this upcoming film.

DR. RON PAUL: That means I'm helping him make money!

1. Sees it appropriate to respond with violence to an homosexual advance.
2. Doesn't watch contemporary movies because they are too crass.
3. Thinks it is a shame the culture is such that folks who make such crass movies and make homosexual advances make lots of money.

"Just because there ARE NO LIBERTARIANS (except Ron Paul..."

The cited article even lies about DeMint's NDAA vote, trying to re-write history.

It minces words, obfuscating the 2012 NDAA which is the big detention bugaboo with libertarians, and 2013, which is just another annual NDAA which happens every year for defense appropriations. 


Actually, DeMint voted FOR NDAA in 2012:


http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/112-2011/s218

When social conservatives get something wrong, it is a LIE.  When AZ44 is hilariously wrong, repeatedly, it is an honest mistake I am sure.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 11:49:35 AM »
He isn't saying social conservatives = libertarians

He is saying elected libertarians = libertarians who are social conservatives.

The rest of the libertarian crowd is too busy maintaining philosophical purity or getting stoned.  :laugh:



Pretty much.

Also, you'd think folks might take a hint from the quoted text and particularly what the OP put in bold face.  But, that doesn't let folks go off frothing regarding their own hangups about so-cons.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,986
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 12:21:54 PM »
Ron Paul is also quite socially conservative, what with eh pro-life view & all.  Heck, check out the following:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/15/bruno-fools-ron-paul-by-t_n_187187.html

1. Sees it appropriate to respond with violence to an homosexual advance.
2. Doesn't watch contemporary movies because they are too crass.
3. Thinks it is a shame the culture is such that folks who make such crass movies and make homosexual advances make lots of money.

"Just because there ARE NO LIBERTARIANS (except Ron Paul..."

When social conservatives get something wrong, it is a LIE.  When AZ44 is hilariously wrong, repeatedly, it is an honest mistake I am sure.


Yes, Ron Paul is socially conservative.

But he would not pass a Federal level ban on abhorshins, because when you boil it down to its essence, it is MURDER.  There are no Federal murder statutes, so there should be no Federal abhorshins statutes.  It is a State issue.

Which is how Paul is drastically different from DeMint, and what social conservatives just don't get.  And why Paul would probably vote AGAINST a federal abhorshins bill.



I would sock Borat in the nose, as well, if he flashed his junk in my face.  And I'm a libertarian. 

You can be libertarian and socially conservative.  But you can't be libertarian and socially conservative and wield the Ring of Power.  You lose the libertarian creds once you do that.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,479
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 12:52:03 PM »
AZR,

Your prime example of a libertarian is a social conservative. Are you roo_ster's plant?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,355
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2012, 01:18:46 PM »
Am I the only one going "WTF" and scratching my head, trying to figure out what is being said when reading this thread?

Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

ArfinGreebly

  • Level Three Geek
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,236
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 01:41:13 PM »

And all this time I thought I was "socially conservative."

Clearly, I have no idea what that means.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2012, 01:59:22 PM »
Social liberal and fiscal conservative are two incompatible positions.
Eventually, the social liberal side will want someone else to pay for one of their brilliant ideas.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 02:14:43 PM »
who has a 100% libertarian voting record



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bHv3410g-g


http://news.yahoo.com/ron-pauls-hypocrisy-earmarks-pork-barrel-spending-012000440.html

Ouch.

I would say in RP's defense, that improving a port's navigation is a legitimate role of gov't.  So, trying to get the fed.gov't to remove a sunken ship that is a hazard to navigation is OK by me.  Especially when it is likely that the fed.gov has placed restrictions on such activity via EPA, Corps of Engineers, etc.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,986
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 02:44:43 PM »
AZR,

Your prime example of a libertarian is a social conservative. Are you roo_ster's plant?

It's a venn diagram of sorts.

Libertarian is a circle.  Social conservative is a circle.  They intersect and overlap.  You "can" be both.  But you can also be one or the other.

DeMint voted for Patriot Act and NDAA-Detention.  That clearly excludes him from the Libertarian camp, and puts him squarely in the Statist camp.

The article's title:

Quote
Tim Carney: Jim DeMint was the libertarian hero of the Senate

The first paragraph:

Quote
For libertarians, Christian conservative pro-lifer Jim DeMint was the best thing to come through the Senate in decades. DeMint, quitting early to run the conservative Heritage Foundation, embodied an underappreciated fact of life in Washington: The politicians who most consistently defend economic liberty are the cultural conservatives.


Note that it says "economic liberty."  Not just plain old "liberty."  That may make him financially conservative, but it doesn't make him a libertarian.


Now, take a look at this gem from the article:

Quote
DeMint opposes gay marriage, but again, the U.S. Senate hasn't had much to say on the issue.

That ain't a libertarian stance.

Libertarians don't care about private contracts between consenting and capable adults.  Marriage is a private contract.  Having the government sanction ANY private contract is a violation of libertarian doctrine.  Private means private, not government supervised. 

Am I the only one going "WTF" and scratching my head, trying to figure out what is being said when reading this thread?




The article is trying to lay groundwork that DeMint is some sort of authoritah on libertarianism.

I expect to see the GOP, by proxy of DeMint's involvement at The Heritage Foundation, try to take some of the thunder away from the growing libertarian movement.  This is the opening of that play.  Just like they tried (and succeeded!) with the Tea Party movement in 2008, co-opting it and rendering it impotent inside of 2 years.  The first step is the GOP attempting to assimilate those viewpoints.  Then it attempts to redefine what those viewpoints mean, by using GOP "experts" on those topics.  Palin did this for the Tea Party, DeMint is being planted to try this with libertarians.  The final step is to de-escalate those watered down perspectives and say they are less important than "rallying behind the party for this next critical election."  The election cycle begins again, and the topics raised by the grass roots movement are abandoned.


I strongly object to roo_ster's assertion that this article has anything to do at all with libertarians.  The first quote he raised,

Quote
For libertarians, Christian conservative pro-lifer Jim DeMint was the best thing to come through the Senate in decades. DeMint, quitting early to run the conservative Heritage Foundation, embodied an underappreciated fact of life in Washington: The politicians who most consistently defend economic liberty are the cultural conservatives.

Could just as easily say:

Quote
For surinamese toads, Christian conservative pro-lifer Jim DeMint was the best thing to come through the Senate in decades. DeMint, quitting early to run the conservative Heritage Foundation, embodied an underappreciated fact of life in Washington: The politicians who most consistently defend economic liberty are the cultural conservatives.

Or:

Quote
For plate tectonics aficionados, Christian conservative pro-lifer Jim DeMint was the best thing to come through the Senate in decades. DeMint, quitting early to run the conservative Heritage Foundation, embodied an underappreciated fact of life in Washington: The politicians who most consistently defend economic liberty are the cultural conservatives.

DeMint has as much in common with plate tectonics as he does with surinamese toads or libertarians.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,986
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 03:04:35 PM »
who has a 100% libertarian voting record



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bHv3410g-g


http://news.yahoo.com/ron-pauls-hypocrisy-earmarks-pork-barrel-spending-012000440.html

http://libertarianviewpoint.com/blog/?p=3697

Quote
An earmark is a legislative provision that directs monies to be spent on specific projects or gives specific exemptions from taxes and mandated fees. Earmarks are usually referred to “pork barrel” legislation but, in fact, they are two different things. While I agree there is a lot of overlap, there is a critical difference and should NOT be confused as the same. You see, earmarks are “objective” in determination, while “pork” is subjective.

I guess the easiest way to define an earmark is to say it is a guarantee of federal monies to recipients in appropriations-related type documents. They are funds provided by Congress for programs where the congressional direction circumvents the Executive Branch merit based allocations and processes.

Example:  A bill is a massive omnibus $500 billion spending bill.  $100 billion for DOT, $100 billion for HUD, $100 billion for DOEd, $100 billion for DOEn, $100 billion for DHS.

Sent to the Executive branch this way, the directors of these departments all spend the money however they want, under the guidance of the President and his executive oversight.

However, if Ron Paul says "In that $100 billion for the DOT, $10 million must be spent to dredge out the Corpus Christi harbor" then the money has been earmarked.

It's congressional micromanagement.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 03:44:38 PM »
As I understand it, libertarians prioritize individual liberty, conservatives prioritize cultural stability, often based on Judeo-Christian principles.  The overlap exists where cultural stability forms the foundation of liberty but begins to diverge thereafter.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2012, 04:01:35 PM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/ron-paul-big-government-libertarian/2012/01/03/gIQAVj1QYP_blog.html

The Texas Republican defends his record, telling Fox News’s Neil Cavuto in a 2009 interview that “earmarks is the responsibility of the Congress. We should earmark even more.” And besides, he explained, he votes “no” on all his own earmarks anyway. “I think you’re missing the point,” he told Cavuto, "I’ve never voted for an earmark, I’ve never voted for an appropriations bill.” 

But that is exactly the point. His strategy is to stuff legislation with earmarks that benefit his constituents and thus his reelection, and then vote against the overall bill — knowing full well it will pass over his objections — so he can claim to have opposed all the spending in the first place.

Consider Paul’s record. The libertarian Reason magazine points out that in 2009 Paul voted against a $410 billion omnibus spending bill that passed over his objections. But the magazine notes (quoting the Houston Chronicle) that “Paul played a role in obtaining 22 earmarks worth $96.1 million, which led the Houston congressional delegation, according to a Houston Chronicle analysis of more than 8,500 congressionally mandated projects inserted into the bill.”   

Thus Paul got to have it both ways: He could claim to have voted against a $410 billion taxpayer boondoggle, while simultaneously vacuuming up tens of millions in taxpayer dollars for his congressional district.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

ArfinGreebly

  • Level Three Geek
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,236
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2012, 04:06:51 PM »

An observation, with a bit of rambling diversion . . .

While I believe I grasp the point of this, I would caution that there is much to be lost by insisting on absolute purity.

I have met any number of purists who will happily either vote against, or abstain from voting for, anyone falling below an arbitrary percentage of purity as they see it.

They will cheerfully throw an 80-percenter to the wolves.

I was a slow student when it came to understanding Libertarianism.  My friend the dentist spent hundreds of hours over a matter of years "explaining" the concepts to me, and most of that time I simply thought he was ranting.  And he was, actually, because he had arrived at that level of understanding where he could no longer see things from the viewpoint of the ignorant and misled (that, of course, would be me).  Everything was obvious to him, while I was still lost in that fog of misinformation with which we've all so generously been blessed.

If you're going to move the needle of American politics, purity and ranting simply isn't going to get it done.


Allow me a little digression by way of illustration . . .

I subscribe to a system of rehab, education, and counseling which has among its rules a provision added (back in the sixties) that no one who has a history of certain drugs may be taken on for service.  At all.  Ever.  And that became a problem over time, as increasing numbers of people were subjected to "treatments" involving those some of drugs, and some of the others became "socially acceptable" in casual use.  The problem is that no matter how "accepted" those chemicals became, they still interfered with one's progress in that system, and some kind of solution was needed to overcome this before the population in general was broadly rendered ineligible.

So, beginning in the mid-seventies, and continuing into the mid-eighties, a research project was undertaken to discover how to remove the chemical residuals from people, and that project was a success.  A path was now available to people who had been blocked an excluded previously because of an assortment of toxins.  It takes more time to do the additional step, but at least the step is there.



We have a not-entirely-dissimilar situation with our political situation.

We have people who honestly believe they're pro-liberty, but for whom their education has been a significant pollutant.  Without some kind of step prior to learning the fundamentals of actual liberty -- some way of neutralizing the misinformation and disinformation with which they've been so thoroughly inculcated -- you're going to have (within the general population) an overwhelming number of people who are "on your side" but whose thinking is still doped up with the "conventional wisdom" of so-called conservative or libertarian politics.

And the process needs to be gentle enough that it doesn't cause excess bleeding.

For example, gently telling someone he's a moron or that his ideas are stupid (as in my own case) will tend to produce results much more slowly than what is required for turning things around.

I don't know what that process should be.  All I know is that it's needed.  It needs to include the education system -- or perhaps exclude the education system -- as the continuing I.V. drip feed of mis/dis-information and philosophical pollutants will render all other efforts pointless.  "Entertainment" (or is that now "infotainment?") would also need to be addressed.

What we really can't survive is a learning process that took as long as mine did.

And, meanwhile, we need an inclusive enough threshold that the 80-percenters aren't routinely tossed.

Some of them -- some of us -- are willing to learn, even as we stumble along trying to pull our own weight.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2012, 05:04:07 PM »
Quote
We have people who honestly believe they're pro-liberty, but for whom their education has been a significant pollutant.  Without some kind of step prior to learning the fundamentals of actual liberty -- some way of neutralizing the misinformation and disinformation with which they've been so thoroughly inculcated -- you're going to have (within the general population) an overwhelming number of people who are "on your side" but whose thinking is still doped up with the "conventional wisdom" of so-called conservative or libertarian politics.

And the process needs to be gentle enough that it doesn't cause excess bleeding.

The problem isn't the people, necessarily, its the leaches, crooks, and sleazes that make it to candidacy.

Right now, The House of Representatives is controlled by the party that should stand for or at least claims to stand for good fiscal stewardship of our country, but the best they can give us is raise taxes. They should pounding the podium with their shoes over the 1.3 (or is it now 1.4) trillion dollar budget deficit that the country is running. Nope, the best they can do is push for a tax increase that won't even cover 10% of this deficit.

If this is the kind of leadership we have, America is done, through, finished... There isn't enough time to elect enough 80,90,100%ers to fix what has been done. Its far more difficult to turn the tide when we have national elections between two candidates that could have been running for the same office in France.




"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Jocassee

  • Buster Scruggs Respecter
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,591
  • "First time?"
I shall not die alone, alone, but kin to all the powers,
As merry as the ancient sun and fighting like the flowers.

ArfinGreebly

  • Level Three Geek
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,236
Re: An Inconvenient Truth (for Libertarians)
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2012, 05:48:55 PM »

If this is the kind of leadership we have, America is done, through, finished... There isn't enough time to elect enough 80,90,100%ers to fix what has been done. Its far more difficult to turn the tide when we have national elections between two candidates that could have been running for the same office in France.


Then I imagine the process of subverting their tyranny will take somewhat longer than it took them to subvert what we had in the forties and fifties -- which, while it may not have been a liberated society, was a hell of a lot better than what we embark upon today.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."