Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on June 12, 2017, 10:11:34 PM
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It's the time of the year again for the nanny nagging environazis to tell us to return to the 19th century and turn off our AC.
I do have to say that this article was good in the sense that it spurred some interesting discussion in the comment section. While there was the usual irrational "the Earth is dying!" stuff, there was actually some rational discussion from both sides, and I was pleasantly surprised by some of the arguments from the enviro side that were more along the lines of relaxed dress codes in offices and small things like turning the thermostat up just a degree or two or other small energy efficient things that don't involve returning to the stone age.
I think it's funny that often the "turn off the AC" people seem to have no grasp of the climate extremes in the US and that it was AC that allowed populations to grow in areas that would otherwise be sparsely inhabited, and were AC magically turned off tomorrow, would see massive out-migrations to more hospitable places.
The article did make the good point that we no longer build homes and offices to work with climate because we just crank the AC. I'm no environazi, but it makes a lot of sense to me to build for good cross ventilation for example, and also like they used to build, with higher and lower windows working together to push out the heat. Our last building at work was LEEDS Gold or whatever, and while I was rolling my eyes regarding that and ready to buy my own window AC unit for my office, I was very surprised to find that the high/low windows combined with skylights on a temperature sensor kept the place cool even on the hottest days. In fact while everyone was prepared to make fun of me (I always kept the AC blasting in my previous office) I ended up making fun of them, because they ended up being cold all the time as the building stayed pretty close to 72-76 all year just via the architecture.
Anyway, I hate the nannies doing the "ban AC" thing, but do think that it makes sense to do things like build for efficiency (and have men not wear suits in the Summer!).
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/07/20/how-live-without-air-conditioning/4DqSdLtDiJ4iAn29lNCjaI/story.html
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Turn off your AC.
No. No effing way. Even here in the frozen north we need AC. It was 95 here today. Modern houses are designed to use AC, not to use windows and convection current to keep the house cool.
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it's funny how standards differ.
In Japan their houses are built like RVs, with little one-room AC units (if that) for the summer and they use space heaters and kotatsu's in the winter. The houses are not really built around central HVAC so insulation is almost a moot point... there's not much climate to "keep in". Our standards in America are simply higher, even for the cheapest house. Nobody would even contemplate building a Japan-like house in America, even if they could get it past code.
On the other hand, Americans are happy with toilets that are so basic, Japanese people can't buy them at any price. Even the public restroom toilets have heated seats.
Plumbing and electrical cartels ( l mean associations) regularly keep inching the standards up "better" and more expensive every decade. It makes me wonder where equilibrium might be if it weren't for codes (and the mortgage deduction). I expect pretty soon all of our houses will have vacuum insulated walls, the entire base board will be 20A GFCI receptacles on dedicated circuits, and every room will require a full bathroom, even though the standard 1950's house in Dallas seemed to get along with a 50A service panel and maybe a window unit or something.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv320%2FKoloblicin%2Fjjv1yg2mg99x_zpsxhioddgd.jpg&hash=c992a64aef18102280dade6d0099a8edd357f5b4) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Koloblicin/media/jjv1yg2mg99x_zpsxhioddgd.jpg.html)
You can pry my AC out of my cold, dead hands.
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No. No effing way. Even here in the frozen north we need AC. It was 95 here today. Modern houses are designed to use AC, not to use windows and convection current to keep the house cool.
Well, I don't want to do without it either. I have trouble sleeping when it's hot, so in these parts, in July and August, especially in a 2nd story bedroom, the AC needs to kick on throughout the night to keep it a comfortable sleeping temperature for me because even if it cools into the high 60s outside at night, the house is still the high 70s to even low 80s. However I also suffer dry mouth and sore throats from the AC running at night. If the house were just designed a little better to get some of that cooler night air breezing through, the AC probably wouldn't run after midnight and also wouldn't turn on as early in the morning. Right now in June, I can cut the AC around 9-10PM or so, but in August it can still be 90 outside at that time.
If I can get cool natural air from outside, that's my preference. If I can't, the AC comes on. If I lived back East or down South, I guarantee you the AC would be running day and night throughout the Summer, because I hate humid heat.
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It takes a lot more energy to warm a home from 0° to 70° than it does to cool from 100° to 70°.
Maybe we should stop building in Boston, New York, Philly, Chicago, Minneapolis, Detroit....
You know, if we were actually concerned about energy cost to control inside climates.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk
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It takes a lot more energy to warm a home from 0° to 70° than it does to cool from 100° to 70°.
Except that the only way a house is getting much below 50deg is if it is uninhabited, gets no sun load, and has no heat producing items inside (electronics, stove cooking meals, etc). I know from experience a modern home will remain well above freezing without an operational furnace in the middle of winter.
Chris
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Except that the only way a house is getting much below 50deg is if it is uninhabited, gets no sun load, and has no heat producing items inside (electronics, stove cooking meals, etc). I know from experience a modern home will remain well above freezing without an operational furnace in the middle of winter.
Chris
2007 we had a major ice storm, no power for 7 days at my house. Temps in the single digits overnight.
I sent my wife to stay with her sister, too much looting going on for me to consider leaving. 2 mantel propane lantern and a big pot of water boiling on the stove kept me only moderately miserable (CO detector was moved in to the kitchen with me). Managed to borrow a 5500 watt generator after the 3rd night, it was able to run the central heat, PC and TV for the Mrs.
We installed the woodstove before the next winter.
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Except that the only way a house is getting much below 50deg is if it is uninhabited, gets no sun load, and has no heat producing items inside (electronics, stove cooking meals, etc). I know from experience a modern home will remain well above freezing without an operational furnace in the middle of winter.
Chris
In what climate?
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Interesting article.
Not one I agree with, but interesting article.
But, as the article points out, it really is shocking just how much AC has impacted how we live, from architecture to business to even how we eat in the summer.
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. . . On the other hand, Americans are happy with toilets that are so basic, Japanese people can't buy them at any price. Even the public restroom toilets have heated seats . . .
You haven't been to Japan, have you?
The toilets in the hotels I stayed in - not flophouses, but GOOD hotels - had toilets that wouldn't be out of place in any American house. The only unusual bathroom amenity was a heated mirror, so it didn't fog up when you took a hot shower.
As for PUBLIC toilets . . . in many places like train stations and airport terminals, they were porcelain holes in the ground to stand or squat over.
(https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.vDUj7tBZJEylzlSN_MlpiQDhEs&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300)
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You haven't been to Japan, have you?
The toilets in the hotels I stayed in - not flophouses, but GOOD hotels - had toilets that wouldn't be out of place in any American house. The only unusual bathroom amenity was a heated mirror, so it didn't fog up when you took a hot shower.
As for PUBLIC toilets . . . in many places like train stations and airport terminals, they were porcelain holes in the ground to stand or squat over.
(https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.vDUj7tBZJEylzlSN_MlpiQDhEs&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300)
I have only seen that type once in Japan, and it was at an airport. Everywhere else here has used regular modern toilets.
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In what climate?
I'd say Mid Atlantic, as that's where Mtnbkr lives.
The situation would be a lot different in New England or the midwest where temperatures can drop below zero for days on end.
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Interesting article.
Not one I agree with, but interesting article.
But, as the article points out, it really is shocking just how much AC has impacted how we live, from architecture to business to even how we eat in the summer.
Just for clarity, I don't agree with the article either as the bias in it is obvious. I also just thought it was interesting from the same perspective as you, that it did bring up some interesting points on how powerful AC's influence has been.
Technology like cars, electricity, and the phone are obvious, but it's easy to just lump AC into the "electricity" category. The article got me to wondering just how many areas of the US would have different populations if it didn't exist.
It also kinda sorta ties in to my topic on Modern Southwest architecture. Even though all those homes have central AC, they still have designs that work with the climate (like outside eating and entertaining). So we can actually have architecture that is "the best of both worlds", but in many areas we don't. I don't know, but assume, that is mostly cost driven, as with AC, you can simply design for indoor comfort and simpler (and even inefficient) floorplans.
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93 and Midwest humid today. My AC is running (albeit with programmable thermostat)
and my dog has a fan in the insulated indoor part of the indoor/outdoor kennel.
I don't care how much electricity I'm using, its for comfort dammit.
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"It also kinda sorta ties in to my topic on Modern Southwest architecture. Even though all those homes have central AC, they still have designs that work with the climate (like outside eating and entertaining). So we can actually have architecture that is "the best of both worlds", but in many areas we don't."
Exactly.
Architecture, especially in areas where it gets not only hot but ungodly humid, like Washington, DC, has really changed dramatically since the introduction of the air conditioner.
For many years rooms got smaller, especially if the house was to be served by window shakers instead of central air. That's changing now that central air is more common, and floor plans are opening up a lot.
Porches pretty much disappeared, as did balconies. That's also changing, thankfully.
Ceiling heights standardized at 8 feet.
Windows got a lot smaller, and there were in most cases a lot fewer of them.
In a lot of ways air conditioning gave rise to the cookie cutter house.
I used to think I'd love to have a house like the one I grew up in, or the one Mom lived in for years -- a big, old, Victorian with tons of charm, eclectic rooms, high ceilings, etc.
Now as I'm getting older I realize that no, I do not want that, not only because it's a pain in the ass to take care of, you also generally have to give up central air conditioning.
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In what climate?
This was SW VA (Appalachian Mountains). Daytime temps were in the 20-30ish range, nighttime temps were high teens to low twenties.
Chris
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Now as I'm getting older I realize that no, I do not want that, not only because it's a pain in the ass to take care of, you also generally have to give up central air conditioning.
"Old" is also something the anti-AC people don't seem to care about (they're pushing grandma off the cliff!!). Climate control has kept a lot of the elderly alive longer. Was it around five years ago that there was an anomalous heatwave somewhere in France that had the elderly there dropping like flies because few places in the region had AC?
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I'd say Mid Atlantic, as that's where Mtnbkr lives.
SW VA, where my folks lived. I was in college at the time and hadn't moved to NoVA yet.
Chris
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"Old" is also something the anti-AC people don't seem to care about (they're pushing grandma off the cliff!!). Climate control has kept a lot of the elderly alive longer. Was it around five years ago that there was an anomalous heatwave somewhere in France that had the elderly there dropping like flies because few places in the region had AC?
Chicago 1995
The 1995 Chicago heat wave was a heat wave which led to 739 heat-related deaths in Chicago over a period of five days. Most of the victims of the heat wave were elderly poor residents of the city, who could not afford air conditioning and did not open windows or sleep outside for fear of crime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Chicago_heat_wave
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Chicago 1995
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Chicago_heat_wave
No, France, 2003.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave
14,802 deaths trump 739.
(According to Wiki, over 70,000 Europeans were killed in that heat wave.)
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No, France, 2003.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave
14,802 deaths trump 739.
(According to Wiki, over 70,000 Europeans were killed in that heat wave.)
Another note: The UNBELIEVABLE HEATWAVE that killed all those people featured a RECORD HIGH in Auxerre, France (highest of the reported ones in the article) of 103°F.
Now, that's hot, but as we well know, multiple locations in the US have that as AVERAGE highs for the month of August. (AZ, Nevada, etc...)
To give an example of how Europe can afford to eschew air conditioning (the article mentions that France almost always has cool evenings) while the U.S. has a much more varied climate.
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"Old" is also something the anti-AC people don't seem to care about (they're pushing grandma off the cliff!!). Climate control has kept a lot of the elderly alive longer. Was it around five years ago that there was an anomalous heatwave somewhere in France that had the elderly there dropping like flies because few places in the region had AC?
I had a spare drop-in-a-double-hung-window AC unit that plugged into a regular 110 outlet I loaned to an elderly friend with pulmonary problems. After that summer, she told me it was a real life-saver. Her words.
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FWIW, the UK is one of those "light-AC-use" countries because their weather is so mild year-round. I've been there in the middle of Winter and the middle of Summer. Both times, the temps were significantly milder than the temps back home. Winter was roughly 30-45deg (home was in the 20s) and Summer was 70-82 (home hit 102 my first day back). During the Summer, they don't really use AC because they only hit the 80s for a short period of time. My company's global HQ was about 80deg during the day. Various small stores and shops were uncooled as well, though places like Harrods were cooled effectively. As mentioned above, they don't have the weather extremes we have here.
Chris
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Yep, and yet it's the Euroweenies who look at AC usage in the US and they get all sanctimonious because we depend on AC so much.
Most Europeans I know in this area (DC metro) have told me that they were absolutely stunned when they were confronted with their first DC summer.
One woman I worked with and who came from Germany in her mid 20s said her first summer here she ended up in hospital with heat stroke because she wasn't ready for it.
It's no mistake that in the days prior to AC, many European governments considered a diplomatic posting to Washington to be a tropical posting.
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Another note: The UNBELIEVABLE HEATWAVE that killed all those people featured a RECORD HIGH in Auxerre, France (highest of the reported ones in the article) of 103°F.
Now, that's hot, but as we well know, multiple locations in the US have that as AVERAGE highs for the month of August. (AZ, Nevada, etc...)
To give an example of how Europe can afford to eschew air conditioning (the article mentions that France almost always has cool evenings) while the U.S. has a much more varied climate.
Go back and look at that overlay picture of the US on Europe. That appears to map to the latitudes also. Where I was stationed in Germany is the same latitude as Canada. France is about where Montana, Idaho and Wyoming are. The difference as to what makes Europe have both mild Winters and Summers is the Gulf Stream. (Why Ireland is green and Britain foggy and rainy.) It also impacted France and Germany as well. There was no AC in Germany when I was there, because it only ever got into the high 80's or low 90's only a couple days per year, but the nights were substantially cooler.
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Man, I didn't think it was that long since the European heatwave, and I did not remember those high death numbers.
Cooler, semi-arid nights make a big difference in places in the West that get hot during the day. One of the reasons I'm focussing on SW Idaho for retirement. Even if it's in the 90s during the day in August, it still usually drops to the high 50s at night.
I would have a hard time in some of the South, and I guess the DC area as well between the humidity and the nights not cooling as much. When I go to Hawaii, it's also humid without a lot of cooling at night (at least on the coast - the mountains can get darn right chilly), but Trade Winds make a world of difference. Stagnant, humid heat is my dreaded enemy.
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Most of the Euros I know understand the US has some oppressive weather.
However, I was amused a couple years ago when a coworker from out west, who happens to be an avid mountain biker, came to VA to work on site for a week. He was mouthing off about the lack of real mountains and how the trails couldn't be all that hard. The next day, humidity struck and he was floored at how thick the air was just walking from the hotel to the office. His description was "it's like breathing soup". I was like "yeah mfer, terrain isn't the only challenge here". Shame he didn't have his bike, I'd love to see him suck soup-air in 90deg temps while chasing acclimated bikers at some of the local trails. What we lack in 1000ft climbs, we make up in roller-coaster singletrack that never lets you catch a break while mother nature turns the area into a sauna.
Chris
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I'd say Mid Atlantic, as that's where Mtnbkr lives.
The situation would be a lot different in New England or the midwest where temperatures can drop below zero for days on end.
That's what I was thinking. I also wonder if an un-conditioned home gets to 100F in most climates. I wouldn't be surprised, at least here. I know I've seen mine get at least into the mid-80s, but I don't remember what the outside temp was at the time.
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"Most of the Euros I know understand the US has some oppressive weather."
In my experience, they "understand" it in a very abstract way.
Sort of like they "understand" how big Texas is.
They only really get it when they experience their first 95 degree F day with 65% relatively humidity, giving an oh so comfortable "feels like" temperature of 120 deg. F.
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That's what I was thinking. I also wonder if an un-conditioned home gets to 100F in most climates. I wouldn't be surprised, at least here. I know I've seen mine get at least into the mid-80s, but I don't remember what the outside temp was at the time.
I grew up in a big Victorian in Pennsylvania. The roof was silver, which reflected a lot of the heat, but during the height of summer it wasn't uncommon for the attic to be 100+ degrees with all of the windows open.
And not much cooler on the second floor.
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The next day, humidity struck and he was floored at how thick the air was just walking from the hotel to the office.
Never being there long enough to get used to the weather when on work travel, the walk from the metro to whatever work building I was going to had me looking like I was just in a rainstorm. The human body adapts to a lot of climate extremes, but mine doesn't adapt that fast. :lol:
That's what I was thinking. I also wonder if an un-conditioned home gets to 100F in most climates. I wouldn't be surprised, at least here. I know I've seen mine get at least into the mid-80s, but I don't remember what the outside temp was at the time.
I don't think the house here has gotten above the high 80s, or maybe it has gotten to 90-91, but no higher without AC even on 110 plus days (that might be after 1+ day of not being here in that heat and not having set the AC to 85 or thereabouts before I left). On a ~100 degree day it will get to 85 or so inside, in the 90s it will get around 80-82. That's upstairs. Downstairs is considerably cooler. Even on 110 degree day, I don't think the downstairs has ever gotten above 80. When it's in the 90s, the downstairs is usually around 75-78. AC almost not needed.
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F them. When I change out my 20 year old 2.5 ton unit in the next few years I should up it to 20 tons.
That way I can go from 72 to hard nipples in seconds.
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I am attempting to get through the year without lighting mine off. Looked at my power bills and it wasn't the winter with supplemental electric heat, but the summer that got me. Being in a mountain climate I ought to manage. With scarcity economics will reduce consumption. Translation, I is broke. Or, we could be smart, build nukes and freeze everyone. Better sleep, less bugs indoors, better health, better productivity, some of the many yields of controlling indoor climate.
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It's got to be above 90F and humid as hell before I turn mine on. Only takes a couple of days to adapt to the heat...
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They can suck it.
My thermostat is set to 72 year round, and in Tampa, that means the A/C is turned off maybe 8 days a year. Mrs. Mush is going to want a fire in the fireplace on those nights too, so are carbon stays consistent.
We do take advantage of 10' ceiling's throughout the house, ceiling fans, and big shade trees to help the A/C, but that thing stays on.
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It was 94 degrees out, yesterday, when a big tree limb fell down, and took my electric service with it. Too bad the folks from the Boston Globe weren't able to enjoy whatever my house felt like last night. I sure didn't stick around to experience it.
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Back in 2010 I upped the insulation in my attic from about R 11 to R 49.
The change, both summer and winter, has been dramatic.
I keep the house around 72 during the day when I'm there, and turn the thermostat up to 80 when I leave for work.
Yesterday it was quite hot and very humid here in DC metro, and when I got home the house had only risen to 75 degrees.
The biggest reason why I use the AC now is not for cooling, but for taking the humidity load out of the air.
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It was 94 degrees out, yesterday, when a big tree limb fell down, and took my electric service with it. Too bad the folks from the Boston Globe weren't able to enjoy whatever my house felt like last night. I sure didn't stick around to experience it.
So you went to Dogmush's house? =D
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Here in Western Washington, AC is still relatively uncommon, since we typically have perhaps three weeks per year of 80 degree plus temperatures. http://www.seattletimes.com/business/seattle-renters-get-more-air-conditioning-as-landlords-launch-amenities-arms-race/ says that years ago, AC in the Seattle area was in the single digits, but it is becoming more common in new construction, both houses and apartments. As both my wife and I are natives of the Seattle area, we complain and feel faint when it gets above 75 degrees, but I must admit that we are glad to have the heat pump on 'cool' when it gets hot.
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mtnbkr remarked:
The next day, humidity struck and he was floored at how thick the air was just walking from the hotel to the office.
I remember flying to Nawleans* and wondering why the plane windows were fogging up on the descent.
I remember getting off the plane and thinking that I could ball up the air in my hands like you would make a snowball**, and even mail it back to Colorado.
Terry
* For our foreign readers, "Nawleans" means "New Orleans, LouisianA, U.S.A." Also known as NOLA. :D
** For our Nawleans readers, here's how you make a snowball:
https://youtu.be/KkvDCb5qoE0
:rofl:
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Back when I worked for Navy Federal Credit Union I was complaining about how freaking hot and humid it was one summer afternoon.
One of my coworkers, an older guy, smirked and told me about how the heat and humidity during his two tours in Vietnam as a Marine wasn't so much a presence, but a living thing.
And it was often an angry living thing.
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Good news! My AC is off. It was 49 degrees this morning!
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Good news! My AC is off. It was 49 degrees this morning!
You have saved the earth today.
But if you turn on your fossil fuel burning earth raper system, well then you're worse than Hitler.
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You have saved the earth today.
But if you turn on your fossil fuel burning earth raper system, well then you're worse than Hitler.
No, no -- Leonardo DeCaprio and Al Gore said that's okay to do (if you're important and/or popular enough).
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I've always said that when I retire and move back to Pennsylvania the first thing I do after I buy a house is install a coal stove.
Not because it's a fantastic source of heating.
But because it will piss off so many liberals.
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I've always said that when I retire and move back to Pennsylvania the first thing I do after I buy a house is install a coal stove.
Not because it's a fantastic source of heating.
But because it will piss off so many liberals.
I wonder if I can patent a stove that burns old tires . . . >:D
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Back when I worked for Navy Federal Credit Union I was complaining about how freaking hot and humid it was one summer afternoon.
One of my coworkers, an older guy, smirked and told me about how the heat and humidity during his two tours in Vietnam as a Marine wasn't so much a presence, but a living thing.
And it was often an angry living thing.
It was 118 degrees and 98% RH* on the Persian Gulf today. My crew of 16 and 4 Passengers went through 60 liters of water and two cases of Gatorade in training from 1300 to 1900, and I still had two end up getting an IV.
I've been to Southeast Asia. It's not that bad. At least there's usually some shade. It's actually my all expense paid tours of the worlds shitholes that has made me so insistent that my home be kept comfortable. I'd grind up and burn hippies to power my AC compressor in a zombie apocalypse before I'll sweat inside my own house. =D
*"Oh the middle east! That's a Dry Heat." My ass!
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It's got to be above 90F and humid as hell before I turn mine on. Only takes a couple of days to adapt to the heat...
Humidity and allergies is what will get me to turn mine on. Wife usually beats me to turning it on. She is getting better with the spring delay because our current house has way better cross ventilation than our previous 2 duplexes.
Love having an east facing backyard and west facing front yard.
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I'm not exactly certain that 118 air temp and 98% relative humidity is possible.... The hotter the air gets the less capable it is of carrying moisture...
If it were possible, it would give a relative heat index, or "feels like" temp in excess of 300 deg F if I'm calculating it correctly.
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I'm not exactly certain that 118 air temp and 98% relative humidity is possible.... The hotter the air gets the less capable it is of carrying moisture...
If it were possible, it would give a relative heat index, or "feels like" temp in excess of 300 deg F if I'm calculating it correctly.
That's what the weather translator on the boat spit out. We've got a weather station on the mast that feeds us the local conditions. It is possible that outside conditions were giving bad readings, but that's what the instruments said.
The "feels like" temperature is close though.
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Are you sure you weren't sinking at the time?
:rofl:
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That's what the weather translator on the boat spit out. We've got a weather station on the mast that feeds us the local conditions. It is possible that outside conditions were giving bad readings, but that's what the instruments said.
The "feels like" temperature is close though.
At that ambient temp, I'm sure the met station was giving a pretty close reading to the micro-climate, especially if you guys were on the water. There's going to be a decent amount of surface offgassing and water micro-droplets that the sensors will pick up, even up at the mast. It would likely be a different humidity reading if taken even 100 yards past the beach.
I feel for you though. I'd be dying there (and would also want to keep things cool at home!).
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^^ "I'm not exactly certain that 118 air temp and 98% relative humidity is possible.... The hotter the air gets the less capable it is of carrying moisture..."
The operative word is "relative," which is a ratio.
If air at a given temp can only hold 1 gram of water vapor per cubic meter, but it's really only holding 0.98 grams of water per cubic meter at that temp, that's 98% relative humidity: (0.98 grams ÷ 1.00 grams) X 100 = 98% Relative Humidity, R.H. or RH.
(That would be around minus 4°F, by the way,)
See:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/maximum-moisture-content-air-d_1403.html
Air at 104°F (40° C) can carry 51.1 grams of water (per m3) as a vapor. If that cubic meter is only actually carrying 50.078 grams of water, that's 98% relative humidity.
If the air at that temperature is actually carrying the full 51.1 grams of water, it is "saturated," and is at the dew point for that temperature and is at 100% R.H. No further net evaporation can take place in "saturated" conditions. So your sweat won't evaporate and cool you off.
You will also note in that chart that the water-carrying capacity of air goes up with temperature.
You might be thinking in terms of "live steam" or something, I don't know.
Incidentally, all the values cited are at a given standard pressure, usually 760mm of mercury, i.e., sea level air pressure.
Terry, 230RN
" 10-3 kg/m3 " in the table heading.
Note the table is headed 10-3 kilograms per cubic meter. That's grams per cubic meter to the man in the street.
Edited for housekeeping, especially WRT the superscripting.
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I'm not exactly certain that 118 air temp and 98% relative humidity is possible.... The hotter the air gets the less capable it is of carrying moisture...
If it were possible, it would give a relative heat index, or "feels like" temp in excess of 300 deg F if I'm calculating it correctly.
I believe that combination is known as "Fort Polk."
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I think I figured out what Mike Irwin was thinking.
Looking at the 1 gram of water at -4°F (100% RH) that a volume of air can possibly hold, if we raise the temperature to, say, 32°F, that volume of air can now hold more water vapor, indeed a little over 4 grams.
This makes the new relative humidity less than 25%.... (1 gram ÷ 4 grams) X 100 = 25% RH.
The absolute amount of water vapor in that self-same volume of air hasn't changed, but the arithmetic does when you raise the temperature.
That may be the root of why Mike thought that air can hold less water vapor at higher temperatures... Mike?
Terry
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I've got to think about this for awhile, because I'm digging WAY back into science classes that happened decades ago...
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It ain't easy. It took a while to figure it out, what with juggling multiple variables.
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I figured it out...
IT'S *expletive deleted*ing HOT!
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
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Yes, the rate of warm water molecules jumping out of your sweat is reduced as the humidity goes up, limiting its cooling effect.
:rofl:
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Yes, the rate of warm water molecules jumping out of your sweat is reduced as the humidity goes up, limiting its cooling effect.
:rofl:
Which is the entire core of the relative heat index, I believe... the decrease in evaparative cooling capability...
I know what I'm trying to say regarding my statement below, but I just can't explain it. When I try to think about it, it gets roiled up in things I'm half remembering from high school science class, college, etc.
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Aaaaaand... I apparently jinxed myself starting this thread. The AC just started blowing room temp air. The weather forecast is for a potentially record breaking heatwave:
SAT: 104
SUN: 109
MON: 110
TUE: 110
WED: 109
THU: 104
FRI: 99
Which means my AC guy is going to be swamped all week, and tomorrow is Sat. I likely won't see him till midweek next week. :'(
Not all may be lost. I did try a trick he told me about when he couldn't make it to one of my rentals in the past fast enough for a whining tenant, which is to kill the breaker to the AC, wait 10 minutes and reset and restart. Doing that got cold air to blow out again at 61deg by my IR thermometer. Of course it's 2100 right now and only 83 outside. Not sure what I'll be getting when it's 110. I forgot what part(s) that usually indicates is failing, but when that trick worked at the rental unit, it was like a $1400 repair.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this workaround will work over the weekend. Otherwise I'm thinking of throwing a bag in the truck and heading up to the Oregon coast for the week, where the high is going to be in the high 60s. :laugh:
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Or you could head over to Fistful's. Or his friend the Catlady.... :P :P :P
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Or his friend the Catlady.... :P :P :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8MyoYZvgjk
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Which means my AC guy is going to be swamped all week, and tomorrow is Sat. I likely won't see him till midweek next week.
Cheapest window unit you can find in the smallest room you can manage to sleep and use a laptop in. Divide a room with blankets if necessary to make a smaller space. You'd be amazed how cold a small unit can keep a reasonably well insulated ~80sf bug-in room.
A project I've considered for trimming the power bills even more is to build one of the coroplast shelters from http://www.elkinsdiy.com/stationary-shelters/homeless-emergency-shelter/
Indoors, with an inlet vent to heat and cool it from a window unit and a small space heater, it essentially reduces sleeping space to the minimum you can get away with keeping comfy. Since that's more than half the time a typical full-time worker spends at home, it could make a big dent in the bills, especially for an older home where insulating properly is a huge expense.
Could also be an effective and cheap way to segregate sleeping space for several people in a relatively small room, so there's a way to make bunkhouses a bit less distasteful.
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Calling for a heat index of 110 today should be a nice movie day
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Aaaaaand... I apparently jinxed myself starting this thread. The AC just started blowing room temp air. The weather forecast is for a potentially record breaking heatwave:
SAT: 104
SUN: 109
MON: 110
TUE: 110
WED: 109
THU: 104
FRI: 99
Which means my AC guy is going to be swamped all week, and tomorrow is Sat. I likely won't see him till midweek next week. :'(
Not all may be lost. I did try a trick he told me about when he couldn't make it to one of my rentals in the past fast enough for a whining tenant, which is to kill the breaker to the AC, wait 10 minutes and reset and restart. Doing that got cold air to blow out again at 61deg by my IR thermometer. Of course it's 2100 right now and only 83 outside. Not sure what I'll be getting when it's 110. I forgot what part(s) that usually indicates is failing, but when that trick worked at the rental unit, it was like a $1400 repair.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this workaround will work over the weekend. Otherwise I'm thinking of throwing a bag in the truck and heading up to the Oregon coast for the week, where the high is going to be in the high 60s. :laugh:
The way I understand it, that happens sometimes in brownouts and other low voltage situations... like another motor starting up simultaneously.
The compressor may be trying to start up with a pressure load on the output (condenser) side, and can't. So it keeps trying until its thermal protection cuts out.
Unplugging it or yanking the breaker for ten minutes (or more) allows both the pressure to equalize (or the compressed refrigerant to condense) , thereby making startup easier, as well as letting the thermal cutout cool off and re-establish power to the compressor.
In the meantime, since the blower fan is not usually interconnected to the compressor power circuits, it keeps turning anyhow, blowing the warm air in the room around.
I'm no HVAC guru, but that's how the building A/C guy told me it works when I had that problem with the A/C in my rather old apartment building.
The same kind of thing can happen with refrigerators.
A year later, I had them install a brand new A/C anyhow.
Terry
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The way I understand it, that happens sometimes in brownouts and other low voltage situations... like another motor starting up simultaneously.
You know, until you mentioned it I had forgotten the issue at my rental happened right after a blackout (where I am) and when my tenant called she described a brownout. Then today, I either experienced a brownout or surge, not sure which, just heard my UPS units all go wacky, and the AC made a strange noise and was back to room temp air. Off and on again brought cold air back. It could very well be that with this ridiculous heatwave the grid is being taxed. I'm still gonna have the AC guy come check things out just to make sure all is okay.
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Quote from: 230RN on Today at 07:25:27 PM
The way I understand it, that happens sometimes in brownouts and other low voltage situations... like another motor starting up simultaneously
You know, until you mentioned it I had forgotten the issue at my rental happened right after a blackout (where I am) and when my tenant called she described a brownout. Then today, I either experienced a brownout or surge, not sure which, just heard my UPS units all go wacky, and the AC made a strange noise and was back to room temp air. Off and on again brought cold air back. It could very well be that with this ridiculous heatwave the grid is being taxed. I'm still gonna have the AC guy come check things out just to make sure all is okay.
My work here is done.
I hasten to point out that the guy who 'splained all that to me worked directly for the apartment management service, on an hourly wage, for all kinds of building maintenance stuff.
We sat around my place yakking for an hour "making sure it was working" and my impression was he was glad to show off his specialized knowledge to someone who could understand it. And of course, he could report to management that he had fixed it, and saved them the cost of a new replacement unit.
Good deal all around.
Terry, 230RN