Israel: 'Shai Dromi' home invasion bill okayed for plenum vote

[MicroBalrog]

'Shai Dromi' home invasion bill okayed for plenum vote
By Shahar Ilan

The Knesset Constitution, Law and Justice Committee yesterday approved for second and third readings a broad version of the "Shai Dromi Bill," which absolves from criminal responsibility anyone who kills or injures an intruder in his home, business or farm.

This decision means that the law can be passed in second and third plenum readings before the Knesset is potentially dissolved. It is expected to pass in the plenum within two weeks.

Meretz whip Zahava Gal-On said at the committee meeting that the bill "gives permission to kill people," and suggested sarcastically: "Just spray the intruders and be done with it. Hand out machine guns to every moshavnik."

Negev rancher Shai Dromi was charged with manslaughter after shooting intruders on his ranch. The Shai Dromi Bill is aimed at avoiding a trial in these cases. The bill was proposed by MKs Yisrael Katz (Likud), Yisrael Hasson (Israel Beiteinu), and Zvi Hendel and Eliahu Gabay (National Union-NRP). Six lawmakers supported it in committee and four opposed, including committee chair Menahem Ben-Sasson (Kadima).

During the Knesset's winter term a severe disagreement arose between the MKs and officials in the attorney general's office, regarding whether the law would apply only to homes, or also to businesses and farms.

Ben-Sasson referred the matter for decision to the ministerial committee on legislation, which decided on a broad interpretation that includes farms and even grazing land.

According to the version approved yesterday, "a person shall not be held criminally responsible for an action that was necessary immediately to repel someone breaking into or entering a residence, place of business or fenced farm, with the intention of perpetrating a crime, or someone trying to break in."

The law would not apply in a case where the act of self-defense was "patently unreasonable," or in the event that a provocation led to the break-in.

The bill would make exemption from criminal responsibility due to self-defense more flexible in two respects. It does not require that a person defending himself against an intruder to be in tangible danger, as is required of a person who acts to repel an assailant. Secondly, it grants protection to a person who has acted in an unreasonable manner (though not patently unreasonable

[MechAg94]

Cool.  Looks good.  Any concerns you have?

[MicroBalrog]

My concerns are triple:

1. One, that the standard of 'reasonable' self-defense will get messed with by the courts and prosecutors to make the whole thing meaningless, and

2. That is might somehow get derailed in the readings.

3. Most people who get attacked in their homes in Israel are the retired. I don't see how this law helps an 82-year-old grandmother who can't have a gun anyway. Sure, she has a right to defend herself, but come on here.

[HankB]

. . .  I don't see how this law helps an 82-year-old grandmother who can't have a gun anyway.

Gun ownership is prohibited to 82 year old grandmothers?

[MicroBalrog]

. . .  I don't see how this law helps an 82-year-old grandmother who can't have a gun anyway.

Gun ownership is prohibited to 82 year old grandmothers?

The rules are beyond strict as to who can apply for gun licenses. Suffice to say the majority of the population cannot apply, and the percentage of people who actually have licenses is below 5% and falling every year. 

[MechAg94]

Crossbows? 

Sounds like that is the next thing to try to change. 

[Manedwolf]

Crossbows? 

Sounds like that is the next thing to try to change. 

Don't laugh. Someone I knew in college from Jamaica said they were quite popular there for both defense and murders, since most people couldn't get hold of guns outside of drug gangs.

As for Israel, how does it make sense to have a mostly disarmed population when you're absolutely surrounded by people who want to kill you?

[AZRedhawk44]

Sounds like a reaction to Palestinian self-boomers.

"AllahAllahAllahAllahAllahAllahAllahAllahAllah"

Bang.  Bang.  Bang.

Thump.

Stop the Animalstinian from reaching the building and blowing up your whole family, and be safe from prosecution for it.

[agricola]

Famous cases nearly always make bad law.  This will last until the first mistaken shoot.

[MicroBalrog]

Sounds like a reaction to Palestinian self-boomers.

Cattle rustlers, actually.

Some idiots [incidentally, Palestinian] invaded Shai Dromi's house and killed his dogs. He unfortunately only had a .22LR rifle to shoot them with. Only one of them died.

Famous cases nearly always make bad law

I don't see how this is 'bad law'.

[De Selby]

Stop the Animalstinian from reaching the building and blowing up your whole family, and be safe from prosecution for it.

They are human beings like you.

On the subject, how do you feel about about the Palestinian right to self-defense?  Do they have the right to shoot settlers who damage their property or trespass with the intent to rob them of their livelihoods?

What about settlers who threaten serious bodily injury by attempting to beat a Palestinian with rocks or sticks? Do you support Palestinians having arms so that they can defend themselves from those scenarios?

[MicroBalrog]

Yes.

[roo_ster]

Stop the Animalstinian from reaching the building and blowing up your whole family, and be safe from prosecution for it.

They are human beings like you.

Half right. 

They are human beings.  They are not like me/us in the ways that matter.

You might have a point when a poll of the USA comes back showing that 65% of us support murdering non-combatants, like they have for the Palis.

The Palis have worked hard to earn their bad reputation.  Don't be surprised when folks come up with nicknames that are insulting.  In the above case, insulting to animals, as they have done nothing to merit being compared to the Palis.

[MechAg94]

However, just like here in Texas, if you are firing rockets at your neighbors house, you really can't claim self defense when he shoots back.

[HankB]

Meretz whip Zahava Gal-On said at the committee meeting that the bill "gives permission to kill people," and suggested sarcastically: "Just spray the intruders and be done with it. Hand out machine guns to every moshavnik."

From this little snippet, it's pretty clear Zahava Gal-On identifes with the bad guys, and feels some kinship with them.

[MicroBalrog]

Meretz whip Zahava Gal-On said at the committee meeting that the bill "gives permission to kill people," and suggested sarcastically: "Just spray the intruders and be done with it. Hand out machine guns to every moshavnik."

From this little snippet, it's pretty clear Zahava Gal-On identifes with the bad guys, and feels some kinship with them.

Oh, she is a prime-grade Socialist. I've met her in person and have photos of the incident. She also hates the fashion model industry because it "exploits women."

[AZRedhawk44]

They are human beings like you.

Nope.  I greatly dislike the illegal alien "settlers" coming up from Aztlan Mexico, but I'm not going around bombing them or shooting them to get them to leave.

On the subject, how do you feel about about the Palestinian right to self-defense?  Do they have the right to shoot settlers who damage their property or trespass with the intent to rob them of their livelihoods?

RKBA is universal in my book, as is the right to self defense or self preservation.  Killing over property is only okay if that particular piece of property directly correlates to sustaining life.  Poisoning water supplies, arson, things like that make it okay to kill the perpetrator in the act.  Theft of a VCR, not so much.

Even Animalstinians get that nod in my book.

What about settlers who threaten serious bodily injury by attempting to beat a Palestinian with rocks or sticks? Do you support Palestinians having arms so that they can defend themselves from those scenarios?

Yes.  Just like I contend that illegal aliens crossing into AZ have a right to not be shot by me or like-minded folks.  As long as they don't bring violence against me, the golden rule applies.  They get a nice polite phone report to the Border Patrol, an offer of food or water if they would like, and polite company if desired.  BP gives 'em an air conditioned ride home at my tax expense.  Pretty generous.

I don't see Palestinians behaving the same.  Hence, they ain't like me.

[De Selby]

Palestinians is a group.

By your logic, if some Palestinians kill, they all get the label.

Tell you what AZredhawk, if I can find some Americans who commit mass murders, will you then deny your own humanity?

Or does this principle only apply to the palestinians?

[AZRedhawk44]

Shootinstudent - here's my original post.

Sounds like a reaction to Palestinian self-boomers.

"AllahAllahAllahAllahAllahAllahAllahAllahAllah"

Bang.  Bang.  Bang.

Thump.

Stop the Animalstinian from reaching the building and blowing up your whole family, and be safe from prosecution for it.

Not an ounce of pluralism going on in there.  Self-boomers in Israel are either Hezbollah or Animalstinians, I happened to choose one of the two groups most responsible for self-booming in my first response.

You chose to get butt-hurt over this angle here?

Palestinians is a group.

By your logic, if some Palestinians kill, they all get the label.

I used singular "Palestinian/Animalstinian" in that post.  Do you not agree that terrorist suicide bombers that target non-violent civilian targets are sub-human?  And they deserve to be shot if trying to self-boom?

Hence, "Animalstinian" for the one trying this, and "Animalstinians" for the ones that support the action or participate in like behavior.  Not a great leap of logic here.

[De Selby]

Hence, "Animalstinian" for the one trying this, and "Animalstinians" for the ones that support the action or participate in like behavior.  Not a great leap of logic here.

So what's your slur for people like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/25/newsid_4167000/4167929.stm

US-born doctor Baruch Goldstein, 38, burst into the mosque in the Machpela Cave and fired up to 100 bullets at worshippers, according to state TV reports.

Or does this term that is clearly tied to the race of the parties, again, only get used when Palestinians commit a crime?

What I don't agree with is blatant racism against Palestinians-and there is no shortage of it to go around.  I see them get called savages, animals, etc etc on a regular basis.  In fact sometimes just looking "Arab like" and being in wal mart can get the FBI called on them-so I do think there is cause for concern on this subject.

[AZRedhawk44]

"Palestine" is a defunct country, not a race.

A "Palestinian" is someone who still identifies himself as a member of that country.  Blood-wise, he's no different than a Lebanese/Jordanian/Saudi/etc.  If you want to go tribal, I'm sure there is plenty of evidence that the monnlithic tribal identification of a "Palestinian" are no more valid than the concept of "Japanese", who consist of over a hundred different tribal bloodlines and genetic variations from north to south. 

So, a "Palestinian" is a political creature, not a racial identification.

Anybody that identifies him/herself as a "Palestinian" endorses the creation of a nation-state called "Palestine" and probably is okay with Hamas/Hezbollah/etc activities against Israel.

Is this a generalization?  Yes, but I'm okay with it.

And I'm also okay with "Animalstinian" as a result of that logic.

"Palestine" exists no more than Aztlan.

[MechAg94]

Maybe we should start a Bohemian Liberation Organization in the US and start ranting against Germany. 

[HankB]

So what's your slur for people like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/25/newsid_4167000/4167929.stm

US-born doctor Baruch Goldstein, 38, burst into the mosque in the Machpela Cave and fired up to 100 bullets at worshippers, according to state TV reports.

Or does this term that is clearly tied to the race of the parties, again, only get used when Palestinians commit a crime?

Baruch Goldstein was an aberrant individual whose murderous rampage was something out of the ordinary for his demographic - I note that you had to go back over a decade, to 1994, to find this example; that fact that people are still talking about it today shows just how unusual it was.

On the other hand, pick up this morning's paper and you'll find Palestinians behaving badly . . . as in yesterday's newspaper, and the day's before, and so on and so on . . . an almost unbroken daily list of atrocities going back for years. And likely to continue for years into the future. 

Also note that a terrorist organization, Hamas, was elected - chosen - by a majority of "Palestinian" voters. It takes the support of a good chunk of the populace to win an election.

If "Palestinians" don't like the slurs aimed their way, they ought to change their behavior.

[MicroBalrog]

Anybody that identifies him/herself as a "Palestinian" endorses the creation of a nation-state called "Palestine" a

So does the majority of Israelis, I think. The creation of a nation-state called "Palestine" is really inevitable.

Jordan doesn't want them. Egypt doesn't want them. Israel sure as hell doesn't want them. They want to be independent.

[De Selby]

"Palestine" is a defunct country, not a race.

A "Palestinian" is someone who still identifies himself as a member of that country.  Blood-wise, he's no different than a Lebanese/Jordanian/Saudi/etc.  If you want to go tribal, I'm sure there is plenty of evidence that the monnlithic tribal identification of a "Palestinian" are no more valid than the concept of "Japanese", who consist of over a hundred different tribal bloodlines and genetic variations from north to south. 

So, a "Palestinian" is a political creature, not a racial identification.

Anybody that identifies him/herself as a "Palestinian" endorses the creation of a nation-state called "Palestine" and probably is okay with Hamas/Hezbollah/etc activities against Israel.

Is this a generalization?  Yes, but I'm okay with it.

And I'm also okay with "Animalstinian" as a result of that logic.

"Palestine" exists no more than Aztlan.

I guess the quality of bieng "Kurdish" doesn't exist in reality either, because there is no Kurdish state?  Or do linguistic and cultural and historical differences (which do obviously distinguish the different Arab peoples from each other) only count when applied to non-Arabs??? 

This still does not answer the question-what is your slur for someone like Baruch Goldstein, who advocates for the creation of a "greater Israel" that includes exterminating all racial and religious minorities?  Or does he just get ignored because he and the political party he represented aren't Arabs?