Author Topic: Guerilla War  (Read 2867 times)

Werewolf

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Guerilla War
« on: December 07, 2005, 07:00:07 AM »
History Buffs! Help me out here.

To the best of my knowledge I only know of one war where one side was a guerrilla force and the other was an organized army where the organized army won. That was the conflict in former Yugoslavia in the 90's (and I'm not terribly sure that one side actually fits the description of guerrilla).

Most recent examples of organized/regular armies being defeated by guerilla forces are Vietnam (US - we won a lot of battles but lost the war) and Afghanistan (the Russians won a lot of battles but lost the war). I believe that when the Vietnames went to war with Cambodia that they were fighting gurerillas and the Vietnamese lost (I think).

The American Revolution might qualify as a major power with a regular army losing to guerillas (might if loosely defined).

The Russians are experiencing great difficulty in Chechnay.

The US is finding it difficult to suppress/eliminate eco-terrorists.

I am sure there are other examples.

Seems to me that history shows that a regular army just cannot win a war where the other side is a guerilla force. As few as a thousand or so guerillas can wreak havoc on an organized military force (IRA in Ireland??).

So the question is can a war (not battles but the WAR) fought between a guerilla force and a regular army be won by the side with the regular army? IMO the regular army cannot win the war though it certainly is capable of winning most of any battles.

I imagine some of you disagree. If so why and how can a guerrila war be won by the side with the regular army?
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TarpleyG

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Guerilla War
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2005, 07:26:19 AM »
Quote
imagine some of you disagree. If so why and how can a guerrila war be won by the side with the regular army?
Blatant disregard for collateral damage, that's how.

Greg

El Tejon

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Guerilla War
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2005, 07:27:43 AM »
The Roman Empire, Chinese history, Indian history, Jewish history, Islamic history, English history (the conquest of Wales and Scotland or the Malyasian campaign for example), the history of the USA (defeat of the Mongolian-Americans), the history of Russia and the USSR (the rebellions in the Baltic States and Central Asia) are just among some of the examples of a "regular army" defeating a guerilla force.

You isolate it, destroy its support base and then kill it or allow it to die.
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SADShooter

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Guerilla War
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2005, 07:29:38 AM »
Someone will be along with more detail (someone, say, like El T), but I think the British in both the Boer War and the comnunist insurgency later in Malaysia beat guerillas primarily by neutralizing support among the civilian population, largely through segregation and internment camps.
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charby

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Guerilla War
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2005, 07:45:31 AM »
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

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Bemidjiblade

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Guerilla War
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2005, 08:26:05 AM »
Being of Celtic ancestry, I'd have to submit the conquest of the Celts by the Anglo-Normans.  El T.  Made some good points, but ultimately acculturalization seems to be the ultimate defeat of guerilla opposition.  The Scottish rebellions petered out and died as first the Lowlanders and then the Highlanders became acclimated to English culture and society.  The English became the resented power instead of the hated invader, and that simply wasn't enough to die over any more.

Similarly, Welsh guerilla resistance died out largely by the time of the 100 years war, since Welsh bowmen became a coveted portion of the English Army.  They learned how to belong.

That is one of the reasons why I'm so optimistic about the war in Iraq and in Afghanistan.  The US is tentatively demonstrating the moral fiber and commitment to stay and unite rather than come, fight, and go.  This is, ultimately, the only way that I could ever see the terrorism ending.  Remember that by all accounts, they're having to import terrorists into Iraq these days, they can't find enough among their own people any more.  That's a very telling thing for me.

The Rabbi

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Guerilla War
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2005, 11:12:54 AM »
Take a look at a book by Max Boot called something like the Savage Wars of Peace on America's "little" wars.
He mentions the Phillipine insurrection particularly.  In fact, every guerrila war that the US has fought it has won.  Where it didnt win, it was because of  pressure for peace on the home front and a lack of staying power.
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Werewolf

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Guerilla War
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2005, 01:17:30 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
In fact, every guerrila war that the US has fought it has won.  Where it didnt win, it was because of  pressure for peace on the home front and a lack of staying power.
Which means we lost the war. May have won some battles but the war is what counts. Why it was lost really only matters to historians and farsighted politicians.
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Morgan

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« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2005, 01:35:08 PM »
Read up on the Boer War - amazing brutality and the world's first true concentration camps allowed the Brits to turn around what was an embarassing series of defeats.

Art Eatman

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Guerilla War
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2005, 08:02:03 PM »
Vietnam is a bad example.  Post-Tet/'68, it was a conventional war with widely scattered and mostly small fronts.

Art
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Guerilla War
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2005, 01:44:31 AM »
THE essential history of guerrilla war is Robert B. Asprey's _War in the Shadows: The Guerrilla in History_.  Here's what Amazon's site has to say about it:

             
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly
Originally published in two volumes in 1975, this updated, abridged version of Asprey's monumental survey of guerrilla warfare begins with the struggle between Persian king Darius and Scythian irregulars and concludes with the mujahedin resistance to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. He discusses how great commanders such as Hannibal and Napoleon dealt with irregulars and how counterinsurgency experts such as Sir Gerald Templar during the Malayan Emergency in the early 1950s found ways to defeat the guerrilla. Roughly a fifth of the text treats the United States's involvement in Vietnam and our failure to adapt organizationally or tactically to the guerrilla challenge of the Viet Cong. Asprey's angry remarks about our "criminal military-political strategy" in Southeast Asia is even more scathing than in the original edition. This is the definitive history of guerrilla warfare over the past two millenia, illustrating its evolution into "an ideal instrument for the realization of social-political-economic aspirations of underprivileged peoples."
Copyright 1994 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

From Library Journal
When this title debuted as a two-volume set in 1975, it was praised for its scholarship, with LJ's reviewer contending that "no other single work can match the breadth and grasp of Asprey's history of war." This edition has been updated and expanded to include guerrilla activity since the original publication. This "masterly display of erudition and commentary" (LJ 5/15/75) remains a benchmark title.
Copyright 1994 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

richyoung

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Guerilla War
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2005, 05:02:38 AM »
For the record, South Vietnam did not fall to "guerilla warfare".  The Tet offensives had largely crippled the South Vietnamese communists - as intended by the North Vietnamese communists, (who had no intention of sharing power after the war was over).  South Vietnam fell to an armoered assault, a "blitzkrieg" that would have been easily recognized by ROmmel as such.  Unfortunately, the South was relying on the US strategy of "mobile defense" could not afford enough fuel on the open market to impliment it - this occuring shortly after the OPEC oil embargo.
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The Rabbi

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Guerilla War
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2005, 05:40:47 AM »
I think Vietnam was a complex issue and there are no simple answers as to why any of it happened.
The US did not lose the war on the battlefield.  In fact we seemed to be doing just fine.  We did lose it on the homefront.  Lack of domestic support translated into poor troop morale.  U.S. desire to get out of the situation only encouraged the North, which ended up winning once the US left.  If we had made good on promises of air support and materiel the South would have had a much better chance.
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roo_ster

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Guerilla War
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2005, 08:22:22 AM »
Most times, the guerillas lose.  

The only way they win is:
1. They have a mature guerilla movement
2. They have outside material support
3. Outside allies/whatever form regular (non-guerilla) units to also engage the enemy regulars

Even if the guerillas have 1-3, the guerillas can still lose, if the home front of their enemies remains committed or can not undermine the effort.

Someone mentioned Max Boot's Savage Wars of Peace. Good read, that.
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LawDog

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Guerilla War
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2005, 08:49:56 AM »
Geronimo, Chief Joseph, Crazy Horse and the people they led were fine guerrilla warriors, if not some of the best ever.

They were beaten by the organized US Army.

LawDog

richyoung

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Guerilla War
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2005, 10:03:52 AM »
...would have been nice for the French and us if someone had told the OSS we were working on a huge bomb - then MAYBE they wouldn't have armed and trained 50,000 Vietanmese communist guerillas to fight the Japanese right before we A-bombed into submission...oops!
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Strings

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Guerilla War
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2005, 03:52:43 PM »
ummm... Rich? Last time I checked, Unca Ho BEGGED the US to take 'Nam as a protectorate after WWII. We declined, so as not to offend the French...

richyoung

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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2005, 12:00:06 PM »
In point of fact HR, the French OWNED Vietnam at the time, we could no more take it as a protectorate than France could have Hawaii or Alaska, regardless of what Vietnam's most famous Honda dealer said.  Take such political posturing with a grain of salt, always - he was simply trying to foment trouble between two allies.  World War Two started (supposedly) to restore Poland's pre-invasion, (an invasion our later ally, Stalin, was engaging in as well) government.  Our difficulties with Japan that led to US involvement escalated to prevent Japanese military operations in French Indochina, (allowed by the Vichy French government at the behest of Hitler), as such access would strenghthen Japan and weaken China in their ongoing war.  Our goals, therefor, were to restore Vietnam, Laos, (and, if I remember correctly, Cambodia) to French control, and to re-establish the Polish government.  In view of those goals, one can argue that the Allies, (excepting Stalin, who had no INTENTION of allowing the Polich government he had helped destry be reconstituted) in fact lost WWII in Europe - and eventually lost it in the Pacific as well.
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The Rabbi

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Guerilla War
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2005, 02:03:25 PM »
Not exactly.
The US was ambivalent about letting the French re-exert control over Vietnam.  Uncle Ho had already declared an independent country and US policy at that time generally favored self-determination.
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RevDisk

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« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2005, 09:29:43 AM »
Quote from: LawDog
Geronimo, Chief Joseph, Crazy Horse and the people they led were fine guerrilla warriors, if not some of the best ever.

They were beaten by the organized US Army.

LawDog
Yep.  But those were just battles.  The war, err, Manifest Destiny was greatly helped by starvation, internment zones, and a blatant disregard for anything remotely resembling human rights.   Disease helped thin 'em down, then the US Army was able to concentrate its forces to wipe out the various tribes seperately.   Superior technology also helped.

Not part of what I'd consider the more glorious parts of the US Army's history.


Quote
Blatant disregard for collateral damage, that's how.
Not always.  Russia/Chechnya.   The Russians have pretty much bombed everything worth bombing in Chechnya with fairly close to complete disregard for collateral damage.  And Russians still haven't won.
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