The ethics of strike-breaking, what do you think?

[Strings]

Hmmm... I have an uncle who was a big-wig in one of the unions in Chicago. He and I got into a discussion about unions exactly once: while I was doing network cabling...

 I was that company's first non-union employee (new office). I was getting bigger checks than anyone in the union shop, including the manager. Same benefits, holidays... just a larger take-home. When I pointed that out to my uncle, he let the matter drop...

[SomeKid]

Back about 50 years ago, the local unions were striking/picketing around the Coca-Cola bottling facility in town.

My Papa and his boss wanted to buy some coke, so they drove a truck in there, and bought some. SOBs in the union weren't too happy about it, and attacked them, sending my Papa to the hospital. He was seriously injured, and they were unsure if he would recover (he was hit in the head with an unknown object).

During this time, when Papa was incapacitated, the Union thug-scum were calling and threatening my Grandmother at her home. They threatened her so much, she had to leave her own home, with my Father, who was around the age of two, and was at the time sick and hide somewhere.

I know this story because my Grandmother saved the newspaper clipping, and let me read them, direct from how they were written 50 years ago. Before she handed me the clipping she was re-reading them herself, it kinda bugged me that after all this time she was again brought to tears at how close she came to losing her husband.

Unions, and their members can just go straight to hell.

[MechAg94]

And then our business goes to China. Where they don't have unions. Which they need, to combat their despotic employers.

I agree, but the more development and all around prosperity they have, the more the workers will start getting restless.  The US govt wasn't exactly a fan of unions in the last 1800's either. 

[MechAg94]

IMHO, the best thing Unions should be doing to justify themselves is training workers in skills and quality craftsmanship.  From all the things I have seen and heard, that don't happen anymore. 

A friend did a co-op job for GE in Houston while in school.  He said engineers didn't even look at a forklift without someone wanting to file a greivance.  That has nothing to do safety, job security, or benefits. 

I don't know if the stuff about unions I don't like are just unions or the arrogance that comes with a closed shop environment.

[Strings]

heh... a friend of mine runs a hribar business: the union more or less forced him to join. He needed some extra help at a local job one week, and asked me to come along...

 Now, I have NEVER done hribar work... ever. But *I* was doing better, and faster, than most of the union boys...

[Firethorn]

Strings, what's a hribar?

My feelings on unions is that they had a purpose at one point.  For about a year for each.  After that, well, they've committed enough wrongs to outweigh their good points.

A union that realizes that killing the golden goose is bad, and represents the worker, not the union, is good.  I haven't heard of any good ones for a long, long time.

The fact that they use outright illegal and dangerous tactics was the whole reason the government looked down upon them so bad...

[armchair warrior]

Read an article somewhere(over forty,can't remember) about how the
ironworkers in L.A. are hiring excons/gangmembers.
They claim there isn't anyone else.
And why isn't the Unions crying about all the illegals?

[mountainclmbr]

My first job out of college was for a company that had UAW for shipping/receiving. We got really expensive test equipment delivered, but union thugs would only deliver one package per cart, and really slowly. We could go over and see the equipment, but could not get it. When we got the equipment, some did not work. The equipment failure claims exceeded the 6-month warranty. Bottom line was massive 80-90 hour weeks for me for 6 months to make up. Unions suck. 

[stevelyn]

You can put me in the "Union hacks are commie bastids" camp. I grew up in WV in the 70's and early 80's and watched the UMW absolutely destroy what was already a very fragile economy by staging wildcat strikes. It still hasn't recovered very well from it.
Anything anyone does that hacks, slashes, burns, undermines and squashes unions is not only ethical, but a sacred duty.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

wow  
Where to start!
i was  in here (hotel employees and restaraunt employees) in dc for about 5 years ended up a steward. learned a ton
1)unions don't need to recruit  bad management does it for em
2) the union was not my friend but in my case was less my enemy than management
3)our union pres got caught with hand in cookie jar  so he lost that position  we elected him treasurer.... wtf?
4)we had free medical eye glasses podiatrist dentist and lawyers as benifits. along with good pay in 93 when i got out pot washer made 15 an hour with benifits above
5)unions are dedicated to mediocrity for all and union politics makes capital hill look like church
7)i learned how to fight real dirty
8)were i to own a place i would burn it down before i went union
9)my union contract noy only allowed me to drink on the job but also required hotel to buy it, but in some bizzaro world they also paid 28 k to send me to rehab

my union was so crooked another guy srarted another local  and attempted to actually serve the membership. he lasted a few years and then sold out and was absorbed by the crooked one

it was so powerful that during a job action while the israeli peace delegation was staying at hotel (250 k a week ) the head of the american afl/cio called his israeli counterpart at noon  by 4:30 they were checked out.

during a 6 week non strike "job action" we cost the hotel at least 8 mill in lost buisness directly. and more when you account for a number of longterm big clients that left never to return. it was a circus. a communications workers union had an event set  600 folks  we had cameras set up less than a 100 entered the hotel and some who saw the pickets got on the line and marched  (we made pics available for em to show the folks back home .)

the union eliminated merit promotions and raises.


i left there ans was hired by another company to be a union buster for em. the companies suck and so did the unions. it was a tossup who exploited us worse  we paid dues plus your first 90 days the union got 25 percent of your pay during your "probationary period"  that really adds up and the accounting is "loose"

[MechAg94]

My first job out of college was for a company that had UAW for shipping/receiving. We got really expensive test equipment delivered, but union thugs would only deliver one package per cart, and really slowly. We could go over and see the equipment, but could not get it. When we got the equipment, some did not work. The equipment failure claims exceeded the 6-month warranty. Bottom line was massive 80-90 hour weeks for me for 6 months to make up. Unions suck. 

This and other examples are why unions suck right now.  They worship seniority and do not enforce good work ethic or even honesty.  Work ethic and work skills are what makes the difference between you best employee and your worst.  Unions have essentially created a protection scheme to make sure the worst employees keep their job.  The effect is the best employee gets no reward/recognition for being the best.  That is why I have little sympathy when these unions complain about jobs moving overseas.  They did their part to make it happen.

Unions today are yet another example of a why the communist workers paradise was doomed to failure. 

[drewtam]

I read over and over,

"The unions served thier purpose at one time..."
"We needed the unions during the industrial revolution..."

I have heard this all my life. This is accepted wisdom. I heard it in school, public and private. I hear it from colleagues, liberal and conservative. Everyone knows this to be fact.

But...
I have never, in my life, ever seen one shred of evidence. Nothing. Its just stated like fact, and we all accept it.

I challenge anyone here to bring one piece of evidence to support this received wisdom.
Evidence means comparing the wages of a union industry to a non-union industry with similiar labor markets and work.

I am convinced that the forces of free market economics nullify any effect a union can have unless either of 2 conditions are met:
1 They control all labor for the market.
2 They are supported by some national taxation scheme

In US history, I think only #1 has been satified some of the time. I wish they could be prosecuted under anit-trust laws for monopolizing labor supply.

Drew

[Ezekiel]

Strike-breaking?

If you -- or anyone -- is willing to do the job for the amount of $$ offered, screw the Union.

Unions protect the lazy, slovenly and corrupt.

[client32]

I read over and over,

"The unions served thier purpose at one time..."
"We needed the unions during the industrial revolution..."

I have heard this all my life. This is accepted wisdom. I heard it in school, public and private. I hear it from colleagues, liberal and conservative. Everyone knows this to be fact.

But...
I have never, in my life, ever seen one shred of evidence. Nothing. Its just stated like fact, and we all accept it.

Well ...... I see your point and I don't have any proof for you.  My common statement about unions is that they probably served a purpose at some point, and there might be a purpose for them now, though I don't know what that purpose is and that aren't currently fulfilling it.

I guess the oddest thing I have run across is a lady that isn't in a union but still got screwed by one and still thinks they are needed entities.

[peteinct]

Companies earn their employee relations.  I work in a union shop as a supervisior(management) but started as a union employee. My salary is relatively high for the area because the operator salaries are high but my bosses pull stuff with me that they wouldn't dare do to the union. So they act as an advertisement for the union.

In the short term the salaries are higher but in the long term the lack of operational flexibility will shut down my plant. There is also a sense of entitlement among the workforce that reflects a lack of awareness about working conditions on the outside.

Unfortunately we are competing against working conditions in China and the third world. It isn't just wages but environmental laws as well.

pete

[Fly320s]

The airline business is mostly unionized, especially the pilots.  I've been a member of two of those unions.

Those unions did provide a benefit to me by creating the work rules and benefit packages before I ever arrived at that airline/union, but once I was part of the union, I never received any direct benefit or protection from the union.  Typically, I would be told by the company to due something that was in violation of the work agreement.  The standard union response was "due the work and then file a grievance."  Fat lot of good that did.

I don't like unions, and I can't see myself ever voting for union representation again.  I like that I have the right to withhold my work skills (quit) whenever I want and that the company can withhold it's work offer (fire me) whenever it wants to.  I think that's a fair way to play.

But to answer Stand_watie's question in the OP, I would never [never say never, eh] cross a union picket line.  Not because I am afraid for my safety, and not because I am in support of or disagreement with the actions of the union members, but because the hard-core Unionistas have a long, bitter memory. 

Numerous airline unions and individuals keep lists of scabs and anti-union types.  The airline world is pretty small.  In the future, if I need to interview at another airline, odds are that someone at that airline will have a list with all the names of the people who have crossed the picket-line or who didn't toe-the-union-line.  People on that list have a hard time gettting hired.  If they do get hired, they have a hard career.  I've seen it happen numerous times; I've seen the list.

Although I do think that unions are on the way out of favor, they are still powerful enough (at least individuals are petty enough) to make their grudges stick.

[Bigjake]

Unions, One more reason why American manufacturing jobs move south or overseas.  Morons.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

that a union memeber should fear his union speaks volumes

[MechAg94]

In the short term the salaries are higher but in the long term the lack of operational flexibility will shut down my plant. There is also a sense of entitlement among the workforce that reflects a lack of awareness about working conditions on the outside.

When I look at plants that are union versus non-union chemical plants down here on the Gulf Coast, it is pretty easy to figure that the safety record in union plants is worse.  The Phillips plant in Pasadena, the BP plant in Texas City.  The BP plant in Texas City just had an electrician get electrocuted last week.  I don't know the reason since I have never worked there, but adversarial relationships between workers and management doesn't do much for plant safety.  There are lots of non-unions places to work so I am not worried about working at one.

[Chuck Dye]

stand_watie,

Sorry, I missed your question about truck prices.  There is nothing personal involved as I drive a company truck, not my own.  The Pete I drive will roll the odometer to 000000.0 in another month or two, probably has a market value in the mid $30k range.  Over the road tractors are highly variable gadgets pieced together from extensive lists of engines, transmissions, axles, wheels, tires, suspensions, and interiors.  What you see from the outside is largely cosmetic.   

[Stand_watie]

In the short term the salaries are higher but in the long term the lack of operational flexibility will shut down my plant. There is also a sense of entitlement among the workforce that reflects a lack of awareness about working conditions on the outside.

...  The BP plant in Texas City just had an electrician get electrocuted last week.  I don't know the reason since I have never worked there, but adversarial relationships between workers and management doesn't do much for plant safety.  There are lots of non-unions places to work so I am not worried about working at one.

We have a number of (non-union) plants down there. I expect I'll be getting an email from my plant manager regarding  that incident any day now, saying *Don't* do it like this.

Our electricians are required to be suited up like Darth Vader when working hot, so hypothetically they should be protected from that. I never say "never" though, electricity seems to do wierd stuff sometimes. I saw an electrocution video, captured on a security camera, in a safety email recently. Not pretty. IIRC the two guys weren't touching the power source, got fireballed from several feet away.

[BozemanMT]

well, public unions are a joke.  why would a public employee need a union?
ridiculous, should be totally banned.

However
I have never crossed and won't cross a private union picket line.

Are unions all good?  of course not, some are completely corrupt.
But are companies all good?  of course not, most are completely corrupt.

Just my little weirdness.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

my first union card was in local 25  carpenters union  i paid 75 buck a week to a crooked buisness agent  instant journeyman. he was getting paid by quite a few guys.  was no more a jouneyman than a russian fighter pilot

[Otherguy Overby]

I read over and over,

"The unions served thier purpose at one time..."
"We needed the unions during the industrial revolution..."

I have heard this all my life. This is accepted wisdom. I heard it in school, public and private. I hear it from colleagues, liberal and conservative. Everyone knows this to be fact.

But...
I have never, in my life, ever seen one shred of evidence. Nothing. Its just stated like fact, and we all accept it.

Well, just for starters:

Ludlow, CO massacre:  http://archaeology.about.com/cs/military/bb/ludlow.htm

In the decades before World War I, industrialists such as John D. Rockefeller had become millionaires; by the early years of the 20th century labor unrest blossomed in the United States, particularly in the coal mine industry. Strikes grew into riots occurring throughout the US, and then into full scale battles, the most famous of which was in 1914, the Ludlow Coal Massacre, when Colorado National Guard opened fire on a tent city of striking miners and their families in Ludlow Colorado.
Basic Facts
On April 20, 1914, Colorado National Guardsmen attacked a tent colony of 1,200 striking miners at Ludlow, Colorado, looting and burning the colony. Twenty-five people were killed. This was the worst of many such skirmishes between the government and the miners in Coal Field War of 1914, which lasted for seven months.
Battle Statistics
The battle lasted 14 hours and included a machine gun and 200 armed militia; the tent city was destroyed. Of the 25 people killed, three were militia men, twelve were children, and one was an uninvolved passerby. The strikers were mostly Greek, Italian, Slav, and Mexican workers; the militia were sent by the Governor of Colorado and ultimately by John D. Rockefeller, owner of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company.
Recent Research and Findings
Dean Saitta and Randall MacGuire have been conducting archaeological investigations at Ludlow for the past several years, using innovative techniques combining remote sensing and historic photographs. Several professional articles have been published, and are listed on the Colorado Coal Field War Project Site.

    * Colorado Coal Field War Project
    * Bibliography

Site Photographs
The Santa Fe Trails site has a collection of photographs, including some historic shots, of the site monument and ruins. The Colorado Coal Field War Project has several historic photographs of the miners' strike and the events that led up to the massacre as well as the ruins of the tent city immediately after the massacre. Archaeologist Mark Walker has a Flickr page with several photographs of the archaeological site and artifacts.

    * Colorado Coal Field War Project
    * Santa Fe Trail
    * Mark Walker's Flickr page

United Mine Workers History
The UMWA lost the Coal Field War. The strike ended in December 1914, and 408 miners were arrested, some for murder, including their leader John Lawson. However, none of the arrests ever resulted in findings of guilt. Ten officers and 12 enlisted men were court-martialed and exonerated for the events at Ludlow. However, because of the public outcry, the UMWA grew strong and eventually the miners' situation improved.

    * The Ludlow Massacre

There's a timeline here, with links:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States 

[stevelyn]

I never knew about Ludlow, CO, but Matewan, WV is well known in WV history.