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Author Topic: Gates has dim view of NATO  (Read 8884 times)

MillCreek

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Gates has dim view of NATO
« on: June 10, 2011, 01:12:43 PM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43351604/ns/world_news-europe/

Some very nice remarks from Secretary Gates on some of the NATO members getting a free ride and that the patience and pocketbook of the USA is not infinite.  You have to wonder about the continued relevance of NATO now that we cannot realistically expect Soviet tanks to come roaring through the Fulda Gap any time soon.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2011, 02:37:59 PM »
No kidding, was pondering that back in '06.

(From memory so I may be off.)

US:
27 ground unit divisions
11 super carriers
9 big deck amphibs (the size of, or slightly bigger than a standard carrier)

Rest of NATO:
19 ground unit divisions
1 Fleet Carrier
1 STOVL Light Carrier/Amphib
4 STOVL Light Carriers


Somewhere something has gone very awry.

Edit: Corrected the carriers.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 05:03:38 PM by kgbsquirrel »
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roo_ster

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2011, 03:10:12 PM »
Quote from: kgbsquirrel on June 10, 2011, 02:37:59 PM
No kidding, was pondering that back in '06.

(From memory so I may be off.)

US:
27 ground unit divisions
11 super carriers
9 big deck amphibs (the size of, or slightly bigger than a standard carrier)

Rest of NATO:
19 ground unit divisions
2 carriers, one of which no longer carried FW aircraft


Somewhere something has gone very awry.

Addendum.
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HankB

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2011, 03:22:30 PM »
In reference to carriers . . . Britain and France will apparently be sharing a carrier.

Sharing.

http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/britain-and-france-to-share-aircraft.html

What next - will soldiers share rifles?  :facepalm:
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2011, 03:36:50 PM »
Well, there was this one time in Stalingrad....  [tinfoil]
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mtnbkr

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2011, 03:49:02 PM »
Quote from: kgbsquirrel on June 10, 2011, 03:36:50 PM
Well, there was this one time in Stalingrad....  [tinfoil]

Beat me to it.

Chris
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2011, 04:09:29 PM »
Quote from: kgbsquirrel on June 10, 2011, 03:36:50 PM
Well, there was this one time in Stalingrad....  [tinfoil]

No, there wasn't.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2011, 04:12:48 PM »
Quote from: kgbsquirrel on June 10, 2011, 02:37:59 PM
No kidding, was pondering that back in '06.
Rest of NATO:
19 ground unit divisions
2 carriers

There's a bit more carriers in NATO countries than two. Italy operates two aircraft carriers, Spain has one more. But yes, you're right in general.
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roo_ster

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2011, 04:31:27 PM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on June 10, 2011, 04:12:48 PM
There's a bit more carriers in NATO countries than two. Italy operates two aircraft carriers, Spain has one more. But yes, you're right in general.

Their larger carrier is of hte pocket-type and can only accommodate VSTOL FW aircraft.  I don't know if their smaller carrier can even manage VSTOL FW aircraft.  Anyone know?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2011, 04:43:50 PM »
Quote from: roo_ster on June 10, 2011, 04:31:27 PM
Their larger carrier is of hte pocket-type and can only accommodate VSTOL FW aircraft.  I don't know if their smaller carrier can even manage VSTOL FW aircraft.  Anyone know?

Both of them carry Harriers.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2011, 04:47:24 PM »
 :facepalm:  I was only thinking of the French and British carriers, stupid of me considering my ship tied up next to Spain's in '03. I was on a Wasp-class amphib and it literally towered over the Spanish carrier. Ski-jump bow and only a single aircraft elevator at the stern. AFAIK it could only operate Harrier's and only carried a dozen and a half or so.



UK:
Illustrious - 22,000 ton (STOVL)

France:
Charles De Gaulle - 42,000 ton

Italy:
Giuseppe Garibaldi - 17,200 ton (STOVL)
Cavour - 27,000 ton (STOVL)

Spain:
Principe De Asturias - 17,200 ton (STOVL)
Juan Carlos I - 27,000 ton (STOVL, Amphib)

US:
Enterprise - 93,500 ton
Nimitz (x10) - 101,000 ton
Tarawa - 39,400 ton (STOVL, Amphib)
Wasp (x8) - 40,500 ton (STOVL, Amphib)


Total Tally
US:
11 Super Carriers
9 STOVL Carriers/Amphibs

NATO:
1 Fleet Carrier
1 STOVL Light Carrier/Amphib
4 STOVL Light Carriers


Edit: Personal note, the Charles De Gaulle really is an excellent modern carrier. Nuclear powered, angled landing deck, catapult launched aircraft. It's just slower and "mid-sized" hence Fleet Carrier instead of Super Carrier. After that I'd rate the Admiral Kuznetsov of Russia as the next best, about 20,000 tons heavier, but 10-15 years older, conventionally powered, and STOBAR.

STOVL = Short Take Off, Vertical Landing (exa. AV-8B Harrier's, F-35B Lightning II's)
STOBAR = Short Take Off, But Arrest Landing (exa. Sukhoi Su-33 Flanker-D)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 05:02:43 PM by kgbsquirrel »
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Northwoods

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2011, 10:43:32 PM »
Last I thought I'd heard the Charles De Gaulle was not sea worthy.
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longeyes

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2011, 10:51:52 PM »
Europe spends more money per year on coffeemakers than warmaking materiel.  This surprises anyone?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2011, 11:11:54 PM »
Quote from: longeyes on June 10, 2011, 10:51:52 PM
Europe spends more money per year on coffeemakers than warmaking materiel.  This surprises anyone?

One would hope so.

Caffeine is the fuel of industrial civilization.
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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2011, 12:02:54 AM »
Quote from: sumpnz on June 10, 2011, 10:43:32 PM
Last I thought I'd heard the Charles De Gaulle was not sea worthy.

Per Wikipedia :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_aircraft_carrier_Charles_de_Gaulle_%28R91%29

Deployed to the Med in March to support operations in Libya so I assume it is still there.
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SteveT

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2011, 12:36:12 AM »
Don't we have something like 90,000 soldiers in Germany?   Why for God's sakes?   

When people realize it's a choice between their SS and Medicare and defense, the US military is gonna downsize big time, real fast.
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Northwoods

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2011, 12:43:04 AM »
Quote from: SteveT on June 11, 2011, 12:36:12 AM
Don't we have something like 90,000 soldiers in Germany?   Why for God's sakes?   

Because, for all their whinging about American arrogance/meddling/etc they really don't want to loose the boost to their economy that all those soldiers and associated support activities provides.  Plus, if we're there, they don't have to spend their own money on defending themselves so they can afford their soclialism.
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roo_ster

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2011, 10:35:54 AM »
Quote from: kgbsquirrel on June 10, 2011, 04:47:24 PM
:facepalm:  I was only thinking of the French and British carriers, stupid of me considering my ship tied up next to Spain's in '03. I was on a Wasp-class amphib and it literally towered over the Spanish carrier. Ski-jump bow and only a single aircraft elevator at the stern. AFAIK it could only operate Harrier's and only carried a dozen and a half or so.



UK:
Illustrious - 22,000 ton (STOVL)

France:
Charles De Gaulle - 42,000 ton

Italy:
Giuseppe Garibaldi - 17,200 ton (STOVL)
Cavour - 27,000 ton (STOVL)

Spain:
Principe De Asturias - 17,200 ton (STOVL)
Juan Carlos I - 27,000 ton (STOVL, Amphib)

US:
Enterprise - 93,500 ton
Nimitz (x10) - 101,000 ton
Tarawa - 39,400 ton (STOVL, Amphib)
Wasp (x8) - 40,500 ton (STOVL, Amphib)


Total Tally
US:
11 Super Carriers
9 STOVL Carriers/Amphibs

NATO:
1 Fleet Carrier
1 STOVL Light Carrier/Amphib
4 STOVL Light Carriers


Edit: Personal note, the Charles De Gaulle really is an excellent modern carrier. Nuclear powered, angled landing deck, catapult launched aircraft. It's just slower and "mid-sized" hence Fleet Carrier instead of Super Carrier. After that I'd rate the Admiral Kuznetsov of Russia as the next best, about 20,000 tons heavier, but 10-15 years older, conventionally powered, and STOBAR.

STOVL = Short Take Off, Vertical Landing (exa. AV-8B Harrier's, F-35B Lightning II's)
STOBAR = Short Take Off, But Arrest Landing (exa. Sukhoi Su-33 Flanker-D)

KGBS:

Thank you very much for that summary.

(I just read that the larger Italian carrier totes a grand total of <drumroll> eight Harriers.)

IOW, just our USMC has more force projection power than all of Europe.  It is time to remove the training wheels.

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zahc

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2011, 10:47:49 AM »
Since I'm a dumb kid, I don't really know anything about NATO or what it is, thus I can't understand this thread. Can yall please indoctrinate me?
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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2011, 11:45:40 AM »
Quote from: zahc on June 11, 2011, 10:47:49 AM
Since I'm a dumb kid, I don't really know anything about NATO or what it is, thus I can't understand this thread. Can yall please indoctrinate me?

North Atlantic Treaty Organization

Formed after WW2 to counter the Soviet threat.
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Northwoods

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2011, 12:54:52 PM »
Quote from: Tallpine on June 11, 2011, 11:45:40 AM
North Atlantic Treaty Organization

Formed after WW2 to counter the Soviet threat.

Originally contained the USA, and most western European countries (e.g. West Germany, France, UK, etc).  Since expanded to include nearly every EU country plus Turkey maybe some others (not sure).

Countered by the Warsaw Pact nations including the USSR, Poland, East Germany, etc.
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longeyes

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2011, 12:56:47 PM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on June 10, 2011, 11:11:54 PM
One would hope so.

Caffeine is the fuel of industrial civilization.

Okay, I'll give you that one, but don't forget tobacco and chocolate.  Without the neuroceuticals and the coffeehouses we wouldn't have this forum today.  =D
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2011, 12:58:34 PM »
I ain't even joking. It's a serious opinion of several academics that the routine consumption of caffeinated drinks helped spur the Industrial Revolution.
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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2011, 01:01:14 PM »
I got it right away.  =D

I work at a company that makes large industrial control systems. I start each day with several large cups of joe, and I'm not the only one.  :laugh:
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Andy

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2011, 01:06:59 PM »
Quote from: SteveT on June 11, 2011, 12:36:12 AM
Don't we have something like 90,000 soldiers in Germany?   Why for God's sakes?   

When people realize it's a choice between their SS and Medicare and defense, the US military is gonna downsize big time, real fast.
Our bases in Germany and many of the others allow us to project force around the world.  I'm not sure we could do what we are doing in the Middle East and Afghanistan without those European bases.
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