Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: brimic on August 09, 2013, 06:10:07 PM
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http://www.rocklandtimes.com/2013/08/08/police-killing-of-95-year-old-war-hero-in-illinois-outrages-nation/
When John Wrana, a U.S. Air Corps veteran who served in Burma and India during World War II, flew into a fit at his assisted living home in Park Forest, Illinois because he didn’t want to receive surgery at a nearby hospital, one might not think the best course of action to physically subdue the frail old man would be to hit him with a taser and bean bag rounds.
We do not know the exact circumstances after police forced themselves into Wrana’s nursing home room with riot shields, but we do know they ended the situation with precisely those tactics. Wrana was brought to the hospital shortly thereafter, but died from internal bleeding.
Is it just me or is this kind of crap getting both more common and more brazen every day?
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Fawking hell!
I used to know an 80 year old man that, after hip replacement, could still throw me across the dojo floor like a rag doll. Few and far between, but possible I guess.
I guess ossifer safety dictated the hard entry? So glad the boys in blue made it home safe and sound that night.
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http://www.rocklandtimes.com/2013/08/08/police-killing-of-95-year-old-war-hero-in-illinois-outrages-nation/
Is it just me or is this kind of crap getting both more common and more brazen every day?
Sure seems that way :mad:
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I think it will only get worse
What kind of cowardly *expletive deleted*ing shitheads Are becoming police officers these days ??
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I think it will only get worse
What kind of cowardly *expletive deleted* shitheads Are becoming police officers these days ??
The kind that tase and shoot beanbag rounds at 95YO men.
To think that my 5'-nuthin' trauma nurse wife handles gang thugs every day at the hospital with a combination of conversation, pain meds, and the promise/threat of anti-psychotic drugs.
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I think it will only get worse
What kind of cowardly *expletive deleted* shitheads Are becoming police officers these days ??
That is a damn good question- whenever these sorts of subjects are brought up, there is always a retired cop somewhere who says he got out because of this crap , or how the new hires are all bullies etc.
I really don't know if this stuff is more common, or we just see more of it due to the ubiquitous cameras -internet etc. I know for sure that I got some breaks from the cops growing up 40 years ago ,that a kid would never get today. And we never heard of swat raids and normally when someone did get killed by the cops they damn well deserved it.
Seems like "compliance" is the only thing they teach them these days. Be degrading to actually TALK to the subjects, eh? This sounds like the kind of situation any halfway competent person could calm down.
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http://www.rocklandtimes.com/2013/08/08/police-killing-of-95-year-old-war-hero-in-illinois-outrages-nation/
Is it just me or is this kind of crap getting both more common and more brazen every day?
couple questions
was there a knife?
why were cops there? if the staff could handle him fine why did they call cops?
we had a guy in his 80's kill his roomy in a home here picked him up over his head and body slammed him some older folks get mean
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Lol
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couple questions
was there a knife?
why were cops there? if the staff could handle him fine why did they call cops?
we had a guy in his 80's kill his roomy in a home here picked him up over his head and body slammed him some older folks get mean
Would it have really mattered if he had a knife?
He was in his room, all they would have had to do is post a guard outside the door to contain him for about 20 minutes until he had to piss or take a nap.
Just because cops now need to put on swat gear and shoot someone to obtain an erection doesn't mean it should be the SOP for every situation.
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We get agitated/angry people in court every day. In the 7 years I've been working there, I've never seen a court officer draw a weapon, much lessnuse one. I can estimate maybe once per month when some person gets handled hy staff. Why? You talk to people. Show some respect. Don't raise your voice. Don't threaten. Just talk to them, and let them talk as well. Listen, even if you don't care, pretend you do. Learned this real early from some good cops. Too many of these cops are trained to see everything as a threat and to act accordingly. Someone inside the magical 21 feet needs to get responded to in a tactical manner. Someone who doesn't comply needs to be forced into compliance.
It's not just a cop thing. A lot of soldiers I know complain they are taught and commandednthe same way. Some trainersnteach their atudents in tactics classes to do the same. It's too bad.
A quick story. When I was a young prosecutor, a woman with psych issues came to court with a big knife in her belt. Bailiff was a retired state trooper, saw it. Struck up a coversation with her, shared a couple of jokes, and then asked her if she would lay the knife on his desk on the other side of the room. She did, and he never touched the revolver on his hip.
I hope all the good ones aren't retired or gone.
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Even though I generally couldn't talk to them, I showed the Iraqis I encountered far more courtesy and respect than the average cop shows the folks he's supposedly serving and protecting these days. And if i had to beat down some senior citizen (assuming he didn't have a gun or explosives) my command would've been so far up my ass it wouldn't have been funny.
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Even though I generally couldn't talk to them, I showed the Iraqis I encountered far more courtesy and respect than the average cop shows the folks he's supposedly serving and protecting these days. And if i had to beat down some senior citizen (assuming he didn't have a gun or explosives) my command would've been so far up my ass it wouldn't have been funny.
You didn't assume blind deference/obedience on the part of the populace, or knee-jerk loyalty from your chain of command. Interesting, if unfortunate, distinction...
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Would it have really mattered if he had a knife?
He was in his room, all they would have had to do is post a guard outside the door to contain him for about 20 minutes until he had to piss or take a nap.
Just because cops now need to put on swat gear and shoot someone to obtain an erection doesn't mean it should be the SOP for every situation.
so why did staff feel need to call cops again? all they had to do was wait 20 mins
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so why did staff feel need to call cops again? all they had to do was wait 20 mins
Some people are still so naive they think cops are the good guys, and expect them not to beat/taze/shoot someone who isn't a threat.
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Some people are still so naive they think cops are the good guys, and expect them not to beat/taze/shoot someone who isn't a threat.
the staff "coulda handled him"
yet they called the cops
typical buyers remorse ask someone else to do your dirty work then bitch
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the staff "coulda handled him"
yet they called the cops
typical buyers remorse ask someone else to do your dirty work then bitch
Swat gear?
Shoot a 95 year old with a beanbag gun?
Yeah, ok then. ;/
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It's an ironclad law of reality in his world. Cops hurt you? You musta had it coming.
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What kind of cowardly *expletive deleted* shitheads Are becoming police officers these days ??
Cowardly *expletive deleted* shitheads, of course.
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It's an ironclad law of reality in his world. Cops hurt you? You musta had it coming.
I think it's called projection.
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If you feel the need to taze and shoot bean bags at an old man doing anything short shuffling his way at you with a knife or pointing a gun in your direction, you don't just need to loose a badge, you need to go to jail. But they wont, they probably wont even get a reprimand for being that damned stupid that they feel the need to rush a room with riot shields tasers and shotguns loaded with bean bags to subdue a grouchy old fart.
And it's a byproduct of the "respect my authorita or I'll damn well throw you on the ground and make you!" mindset that they have been taught, trained, and that the courts and the general public have come to accept. All in the name of "officer safety" in a job that doesn't even break the top ten in terms of how likely you are to be hurt or killed on the job. And it's never questioned beyond that.
Talk to the guy, don't be a dick, shove your force compliance crap up your ass unless it's truly needed, and maybe use a little brain power instead of brute force for a change.
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If you feel the need to taze and shoot bean bags at an old man doing anything short shuffling his way at you with a knife or pointing a gun in your direction, you don't just need to loose a badge, you need to go to jail. But they wont, they probably wont even get a reprimand for being that damned stupid that they feel the need to rush a room with riot shields tasers and shotguns loaded with bean bags to subdue a grouchy old fart.
And it's a byproduct of the "respect my authorita or I'll damn well throw you on the ground and make you!" mindset that they have been taught, trained, and that the courts and the general public have come to accept. All in the name of "officer safety" in a job that doesn't even break the top ten in terms of how likely you are to be hurt or killed on the job. And it's never questioned beyond that.
Talk to the guy, don't be a dick, shove your force compliance crap up your ass unless it's truly needed, and maybe use a little brain power instead of brute force for a change.
so a knife would be a game changer?
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so a knife would be a game changer?
Yes.
It gives them carte blanche tase and bludgeon him to death. Crotchety old geezer had it coming the second he threw his bed pan at the nurse.
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so why did staff feel need to call cops again? all they had to do was wait 20 mins
I guess because they felt that they had to exercise their "authority" to force him to endure an unwanted medical procedure :mad:
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I was not there on the scene and am unfamiliar with the patient, so I am hesitant to comment on what went down, but in my healthcare facilities, we would rarely call the police in these sort of situations since if there are no weapons involved, the facility staff is better able to manage the problem. Then again, we had a case in February this year of an 85 year old resident in a local nursing home who shot the nursing home administrator due to a perceived grudge. One .38 round to the abdomen causing liver and vascular damage but the administrator survived and returned to work. I can't recall if the resident has been tried yet or what his sentence is. He will probably be going directly to the infirmary wing of our local prison, since I cannot imagine he can care for himself in general population.
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I recently bought a taser from a gun show which got me googling the subject. I was surprised to find that whenever i searched anything taser related i got quite a few articles popping up about police, not just in the U.S., stunning small children and old people. There was a pretty interesting topic on the TED talks on the excessive use of non-lethal force in law enforcement. I don't remember the statistics of the top of my head. Here's a link
http://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_coleman_the_moral_dangers_of_non_lethal_weapons.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_coleman_the_moral_dangers_of_non_lethal_weapons.html)
Anywho, wtf.
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Not to compare an elderly veteran to a baby deer, but this case sorta reminds me of Giggles, Also taken out by overzealous authorities.
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They see enforcing "compliance" as a legitimate way to protect society and themselves.
Cops are not hired for introspection or imagination and most probably have never thought much about the long term corrosive effects of the increasing separation of themselves from the society they "serve".
If this trend continues long enough, as well as them seeing the public as an "enemy" ,or just "civilians" the public may start seeing them as an enemy. When normal policing duties are carried out with an armored car and a full fire team, it will be at that point-the police will have become domestic military occupiers.
I wonder if the academies teach Robert Peels principals of policing. Sure seems like it has been forgotten.
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I wonder if the cops knew the old man had no younger male next-of-kin who'd seek justice on their own if denied by the court . . .
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couple questions
was there a knife?
why were cops there? if the staff could handle him fine why did they call cops?
we had a guy in his 80's kill his roomy in a home here picked him up over his head and body slammed him some older folks get mean
I always count on you to find a way to defend any craziness the government or the police pull. Thanks for being always meeting my expectations.
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http://www.rocklandtimes.com/2013/08/08/police-killing-of-95-year-old-war-hero-in-illinois-outrages-nation/
Is it just me or is this kind of crap getting both more common and more brazen every day?
No. This is not getting more common or more brazen. This does not compare to any stupid use of a taser or bean bag that I have ever heard before. If this doesn't get the local residents up in arms to fire the entire Park Forest police department then we may as well all just surrender. This is the most outrageous police brutality case I have heard of in a long time.
That is a damn good question- whenever these sorts of subjects are brought up, there is always a retired cop somewhere who says he got out because of this crap , or how the new hires are all bullies etc.
I guess my experience in the forums has been different. What I usually see is retired or current cops saying that we don't know the whole story and we don't know what happened off the tape before some atrocity happened on camera or that we're cop bashing if we challenge any cop behavior.
We all need to remember, the police are the armed enforcement branch of the government of which we are already so wary. That's the good cops. It goes downhill from there.
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I guess my experience in the forums has been different. What I usually see is retired or current cops saying that we don't know the whole story and we don't know what happened off the tape before some atrocity happened on camera...
Which is very often true. Maybe not in this case, but cops get Zimmerman-ed by the press just as much as anybody else.
Or should I say they get Brian Ross-ed?
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As it is above, it is below...
I think these occurrences are just manifestations of what is going on at higher levels... These insane "LEO" on "Citizen" interactions are just a trickle-down of the current State vs the People paradigm. The velvet glove is getting threadbare.
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I recently bought a taser from a gun show which got me googling the subject. I was surprised to find that whenever i searched anything taser related i got quite a few articles popping up about police, not just in the U.S., stunning small children and old people. There was a pretty interesting topic on the TED talks on the excessive use of non-lethal force in law enforcement. I don't remember the statistics of the top of my head. Here's a link
http://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_coleman_the_moral_dangers_of_non_lethal_weapons.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_coleman_the_moral_dangers_of_non_lethal_weapons.html)
Anywho, wtf.
I took taser/nightstick/pepperspay training.
I was told by my professional instructors that the proper term was "less then lethal" not "non lethal"because it can be lethal.
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As it is above, it is below...
I think these occurrences are just manifestations of what is going on at higher levels... These insane "LEO" on "Citizen" interactions are just a trickle-down of the current State vs the People paradigm. The velvet glove is getting threadbare.
You make a good point and remind me of one. When I go into any business and the minimum-wage-or-near-so clerk is rude or service is bad, I am never rude or upset with the clerk. I am a firm believer in the theorem that all problems are management problems. I have found across many years of leading people that, almost without exception, people meet the expectations set of them. When employees are rude that's because their management probably behaves the same way and they are replicating that behavior. At best it is because they know their management either does not care or does not implement mechanisms by which they can identify bad behavior.
I don't think the police are so different in that regard. They are doing what they believe their bosses expect them to do - or at least know their bosses will allow them to do. The effects of bad policing are so much more serious than bad service at McDonald's that the police definitely need to be held to a higher standard and, like any one, when their actions turn violence they need to be held personally accountable. Even so, in the end, they are doing what their bosses allow or expect them to do. This is not just a street cop problem. It's a management problem. Whoever failed to set the right standards and expectation in these officers need to go. The cops need to be prosecuted for causing a death while committing a felony and put to death. Unfortunately, Illinois outlawed the death penalty in 2011 so we should only settle for life without parole. Their managers, chief, and city leaders need to be charged as accomplices.
I took taser/nightstick/pepperspay training.
I was told by my professional instructors that the proper term was "less then lethal" not "non lethal"because it can be lethal.
Then it ain't less-than-lethal either. Dead is dead, not less than dead.
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I think "less lethal" is the right term.
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Never mind the cops, What makes people think it's OK to force a 95 year old man into surgery?
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Never mind the cops, What makes people think it's OK to force a 95 year old man into surgery?
This
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Never mind the cops, What makes people think it's OK to force a 95 year old man into surgery?
Obamacare will fix that.
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Never mind the cops, What makes people think it's OK to force a 95 year old man into surgery?
If he went willingly, how would they know they had power? Force, is proof of power. That is why tyranny descends into a fine mesh of laws- in order to be able to force- force is the POINT of of power. Only when someone is forced, can the bullies be sure of power.
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I don't think the police are so different in that regard. They are doing what they believe their bosses expect them to do - or at least know their bosses will allow them to do. The effects of bad policing are so much more serious than bad service at McDonald's that the police definitely need to be held to a higher standard and, like any one, when their actions turn violence they need to be held personally accountable. Even so, in the end, they are doing what their bosses allow or expect them to do. This is not just a street cop problem. It's a management problem. Whoever failed to set the right standards and expectation in these officers need to go. The cops need to be prosecuted for causing a death while committing a felony and put to death. Unfortunately, Illinois outlawed the death penalty in 2011 so we should only settle for life without parole. Their managers, chief, and city leaders need to be charged as accomplices.
I've been thinking about that lately. I don't dislike police, and I don't have a problem with police, per se. They are doing what society has asked them to do. Like so many other problems, it won't be solved unless the leadership, from the local level, right up the Presidency, is reformed.
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I've been thinking about that lately. I don't dislike police, and I don't have a problem with police, per se. They are doing what society has asked them to do. Like so many other problems, it won't be solved unless the leadership, from the local level, right up the Presidency, is reformed.
If an institution requires reform at every level of society or near-perfect leadership to properly function IAW the COTUS, perhaps the more practical solution is to jettison the institution or seriously re-think its scope?
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I've been thinking about that lately. I don't dislike police, and I don't have a problem with police, per se. They are doing what society has asked them to do. Like so many other problems, it won't be solved unless the leadership, from the local level, right up the Presidency, is reformed.
That's a great point and I agree but just because management allows or overlooks the behavior doesn't eliminate the personal blame of the street cop who does the beating or the cops who don't stop it or who overlook it.
I don't have a problem with all cops but I have a problem with the ones who shot this guy with a taser and who shot him with a beanbag and all those who either apparently lied about the butcher knife or went along with the apparent lie.
Tough police claimed Wrana had armed himself with a 12-inch butcher knife, staff explained they did not see any weapon when they were in his room. Wrana was also seated at the time of the incident, casting further doubt on police claims that he needed to be forcefully subdued, especially with equipment typically used for riot control.
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On a tangent,why is it every time a recording surfaces , the cops are all screaming and cursing at once? The general picture is of a poorly trained gang of thugs, rather than a professional police team. It is if their desire to intimidate has overwhelmed any attempt to actually communicate what they want the guy to do. And since when is cursing out citizens considered professional?
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Not to compare an elderly veteran to a baby deer, but this case sorta reminds me of Giggles, Also taken out by overzealous authorities.
I wonder if "Giggles" was the fawn's name before the raid, or if they named it afterward to make the story sound even more outrageous?
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I wonder if "Giggles" was the fawn's name before the raid, or if they named it afterward to make the story sound even more outrageous?
The fawn was actually a twin, and had a brother named "Schitz" :angel:
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That's a great point and I agree but just because management allows or overlooks the behavior doesn't eliminate the personal blame of the street cop who does the beating or the cops who don't stop it or who overlook it.
I don't have a problem with all cops but I have a problem with the ones who shot this guy with a taser and who shot him with a beanbag and all those who either apparently lied about the butcher knife or went along with the apparent lie.
Obviously, some police are just downright bad cops, and deserve all manner of blame and punishment. But most are just doing the heavy-handed, intrusive stuff that is now expected of them. Those are the ones I'm talking about. I may blame them, to some extent, but I don't know how well it works for us to treat them all like the enemy.
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I'm sure some of the Nazis were decent people, and The Mob probably has lots of good accountants and secretaries and deliverymen who never broke a single kneecap...
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On a tangent,why is it every time a recording surfaces , the cops are all screaming and cursing at once? The general picture is of a poorly trained gang of thugs, rather than a professional police team. It is if their desire to intimidate has overwhelmed any attempt to actually communicate what they want the guy to do. And since when is cursing out citizens considered professional?
A big problem regarding this is that it appears they are all trained in an individual manner to use "command voice" to intimidate and confuse their average contact into submission. They all too often don't seem to have any group training (or they disregard it) to defer to one LEO shouting out commands to a suspect. This has certainly led to more than one instance of someone being tased, shot, etc. because they obeyed one command they heard versus another, contradictory command from someone else.
The cursing is another matter entirely (and this is not to say that I agree with "command voice" tactics). All too often you see the cursing when the officers don't think they're being recorded. That open carry guy incident in Philadelphia a couple of years back comes to mind.
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Obviously, some police are just downright bad cops, and deserve all manner of blame and punishment. But most are just doing the heavy-handed, intrusive stuff that is now expected of them. Those are the ones I'm talking about. I may blame them, to some extent, but I don't know how well it works for us to treat them all like the enemy.
I don't think that it is working out too well for them to treat us all like the enemy.
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I don't think that it is working out too well for them to treat us all like the enemy.
Really? Looks like they are doing well enough.
Most get pretty good wages, great benefits, mondo pensions, job security, and a union to back them up.
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Really? Looks like they are doing well enough.
Most get pretty good wages, great benefits, mondo pensions, job security, and a union to back them up.
I should have said it ain't working out too well for us, for them to treat us all like the enemy.
But what a shock that there are so many "cop haters" these days ... ;/
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Really? Looks like they are doing well enough.
Most get pretty good wages, great benefits, mondo pensions, job security, and a union to back them up.
It'll work well for them until it doesn't.
and then, Well......That'll be an interesting day. [/Jayne voice]