Author Topic: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?  (Read 31412 times)

Nick1911

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2013, 12:00:41 PM »
Buses don't go everywhere either, some places not very close and buses take money to ride.

So what's the point of this line of inquiry, Charby?

That some people start with nothing and without government handouts they wouldn't be able to improve their situation and eventually die?

charby

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2013, 12:32:23 PM »
So what's the point of this line of inquiry, Charby?

That some people start with nothing and without government handouts they wouldn't be able to improve their situation and eventually die?

My point is that some people are unable to move to a job without a little financial help from somewhere. I also feel it unrealistic to expect a bus+walking as transportation to anywhere in the US for poor people, not every town of any size is served by a bus system.
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roo_ster

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2013, 01:01:58 PM »
My point is that some people are unable to move to a job without a little financial help from somewhere. I also feel it unrealistic to expect a bus+walking as transportation to anywhere in the US for poor people, not every town of any size is served by a bus system.

Given that the interior of America was settled in the 18th-19th centuries, mostly by poor people with no access to gov't or any assistance, it is not so impossible as some might think.

I suspect a lot of this is an unwillingness to see folk live below some first-world standard of living.  On one end you get the "It is unrealistic to expect a poor person to move and make a new life for themselves without help."  At the other end is the dang near outlawing of poverty.  By that I mean, making illegal the actions one must take and the conditions one must endure while poor. 

For example:
Barely making it as a family of four (mom, dad, 2x young kids), can afford only Dad's regular-cab pickup he uses for work.  After work, family goes to the grocery store because Dad got paid (Yay!).  Well, Dad is violating at least two laws.  First, every kid needs a booster seat.  Thing is, can't get 4-across seating, 2 of them boosters, in any pickup I know.  Also, kiddos not allowed to sit in the front seat.  So, after pulling in a fat $800, heading to the grocery store, and thinking about new shoes for the kids, they get pulled over and get $800 in fines for the above listed infractions.  ($200/each is the going rate in Texas, IIRC.  Gotta crack down on those scofflaws[1].)







[1]  Unless they are illegal aliens.  Nobody expects them to comply with or pay fines on such laws. 
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roo_ster

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Tallpine

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2013, 01:07:01 PM »
My point is that some people are unable to move to a job without a little financial help from somewhere. I also feel it unrealistic to expect a bus+walking as transportation to anywhere in the US for poor people, not every town of any size is served by a bus system.

There are no jobs in Chicago.

There are no schools either, apparently  ;/
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2013, 01:48:55 PM »
My point is that some people are unable to move to a job without a little financial help from somewhere. I also feel it unrealistic to expect a bus+walking as transportation to anywhere in the US for poor people, not every town of any size is served by a bus system.

You don't go from sub-poverty conditions of no job, to a lovely career in XYZ across country, in a single step.

You work whatever job you can get, no matter how horrible, and save your pennies to be able to make it across country somehow.  A Greyhound ticket cross-country can be purchased for less than 1 week's worth of minimum wages.  If you need to work 3-6 months to be able to save that... so be it.

50 years ago, people went cross-country for jobs in motortown, USA.
100 years ago, people went cross-country for jobs in awful meat-packing plants.
150 years ago, people went cross-country for jobs on ranches and farms on the frontier.

People can go cross-country today for jobs in Frackfield, ND.
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birdman

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2013, 01:59:38 PM »
My point is that some people are unable to move to a job without a little financial help from somewhere. I also feel it unrealistic to expect a bus+walking as transportation to anywhere in the US for poor people, not every town of any size is served by a bus system.

Greyhound goes almost anywhere...considering most poor are in cities, loom at this map
http://extranet.greyhound.com/Revsup/schedules/sa-50.pdf

So, that leaves out small towns (say 50-100k or smaller, not in proximity to larger cities and thus part of their transportation system).  That means less than 1-2% of poor ARENT within a few hours walk and or a bus/subway ride to a greyhound terminal.  And an even smaller amount ARENT within a $50-100 "bribe a friend/neighbor/relative/stranger" range of said terminal.

Basically, for a few hundred bucks, you can theoretically get anywhere.  Even saving $0.50 an hour of a minimum wage paycheck means in 2-3 months you could save enough to get anywhere.

Saying its impossible is simply wrong.

Hell, spend $20 on a few goodwill second hand pairs of shoes, $20 on some ramen, and start walking.
An average person can walk 10-20 miles a day, and feed themselves for <$2-3/day.  Meaning AT MOST the entire country is less than $500 and 6 months away.  Period.

Its the same logic that makes me wonder why there are NON-mentally ill homeless in Boston or NYC in the winter...its not like you have things to do...just start walking south.  If you start in August, you will be in Miami by November.

charby

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2013, 02:31:38 PM »
Given that the interior of America was settled in the 18th-19th centuries, mostly by poor people with no access to gov't or any assistance, it is not so impossible as some might think.

There was government assistance for them via the Homestead Act.

http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=31

Free land was a pretty good incentive to leave the family behind and restart in a strange land.

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Nick1911

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2013, 02:48:11 PM »
There was government assistance for them via the Homestead Act.

http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=31

Free land was a pretty good incentive to leave the family behind and restart in a strange land.

Did government assistance also pay for a bus ticket to the free land?

Free land on the other side of the country.
Job on the other side of the country.
Still have to get there, in both cases.

roo_ster

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2013, 02:59:49 PM »
Relative to charby's point, we are all assuming single man, single woman, or married man with wife taking care of the kiddos back home.  Include kids in the equation and it gets a whole lot more tricky.
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roo_ster

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2013, 03:21:29 PM »
Relative to charby's point, we are all assuming single man, single woman, or married man with wife taking care of the kiddos back home.  Include kids in the equation and it gets a whole lot more tricky.


funny how folks tend to equate their own life situation as a universal truth
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

dogmush

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2013, 03:41:31 PM »
If only there was historical precident in this country on having to move an entire family because the economy crashed and jobs were somewhere else......




Nick1911

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #86 on: March 06, 2013, 04:05:01 PM »
Relative to charby's point, we are all assuming single man, single woman, or married man with wife taking care of the kiddos back home.  Include kids in the equation and it gets a whole lot more tricky.

And kids are a choice, no?  Actions have consequences.

Balog

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #87 on: March 06, 2013, 04:13:29 PM »
I think some folks here are forgetting the difference between their Anarchotopia beliefs about how things should be, and the political realities of the world in which we live.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #88 on: March 06, 2013, 04:46:49 PM »
I think some folks here are forgetting the difference between their Anarchotopia beliefs about how things should be, and the political realities of the world in which we live.

You just keep on sticking your gun in my face to rob me, then. ;/  That's gonna end well.  And leave a lovely morally balanced legacy behind.
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Balog

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #89 on: March 06, 2013, 05:06:08 PM »
Sorry, that wasn't necessary. Let me try that again.

You're an anarchist. Great, good for you. But it's a cop out. "Anything other than my impossible ideal is evil so I'm free from ever having to try to make things better!"

« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 05:46:51 PM by Balog »
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

charby

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2013, 05:26:27 PM »
Did government assistance also pay for a bus ticket to the free land?

Free land on the other side of the country.
Job on the other side of the country.
Still have to get there, in both cases.

Things were just different then, life moved a lot slower, people got jobs by writing letters and using the postal mail with letters of reference. Many things were done by manual labor or animal locomotion.

Now a days, sometimes even a job at McDonalds or Walmart requires internet access and perhaps a couple face to face interviews. If you looked haggered and tried to walk across the country in some uppity communities you may end up with a free ride to jail because you don't belong there.

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charby

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #91 on: March 06, 2013, 06:03:27 PM »
Relative to charby's point, we are all assuming single man, single woman, or married man with wife taking care of the kiddos back home.  Include kids in the equation and it gets a whole lot more tricky.

I also tend to forget about kiddos since I don't have any.

Also for the record I don't believe in handouts, I do believe in a hand up, such as some governmental assistance to get a person/family back on their feet after a job loss, natural disaster, etc. Also for people who want to get out of the welfare sterotypical life.
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birdman

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #92 on: March 06, 2013, 06:27:04 PM »
I also tend to forget about kiddos since I don't have any.

Also for the record I don't believe in handouts, I do believe in a hand up, such as some governmental assistance to get a person/family back on their feet after a job loss, natural disaster, etc. Also for people who want to get out of the welfare sterotypical life.

Why not a capitalist way?  Even ultra-liberals tout microloans as working in impoverished other countries...why not something here?  Find a way for someone to borrow $x @ reasonable rate, in a "ninja" fashion, without all the paperwork...

Basically, a kickstarter for people.  I know plenty of people who would want to make a reliable 5-10% return on a few k to 10's of k, or more, but its the management that is the annoying part.

Balog

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #93 on: March 06, 2013, 06:30:21 PM »
It's also important to remember that there is no perfect system. Name any plan you want and some folks are going to get hurt by it. All we can really do is aim for the least harm done.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MillCreek

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #94 on: March 06, 2013, 07:01:52 PM »
I also tend to forget about kiddos since I don't have any.

Also for the record I don't believe in handouts, I do believe in a hand up, such as some governmental assistance to get a person/family back on their feet after a job loss, natural disaster, etc. Also for people who want to get out of the welfare sterotypical life.

Add me to the list on this as well.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #95 on: March 06, 2013, 07:22:07 PM »
How many of you believe in hiring someone to shoot me in the face if I don't give over my money for your beliefs?

You like hand-ups, give some money to the YMCA/YWCA/Salvation Army/Goodwill.  Participate in your local funny-hatted masonic lodge, elks club, or church.

Quit trying to project your false morality at the barrel of a hired gun, for money that isn't even yours and instead belongs to others.
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Regolith

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #96 on: March 06, 2013, 07:46:59 PM »
Things were just different then, life moved a lot slower, people got jobs by writing letters and using the postal mail with letters of reference. Many things were done by manual labor or animal locomotion.

Now a days, sometimes even a job at McDonalds or Walmart requires internet access and perhaps a couple face to face interviews. If you looked haggered and tried to walk across the country in some uppity communities you may end up with a free ride to jail because you don't belong there.

Every Walmart (and just about every other chain store) I've ever been in has a terminal inside the store specifically to allow people to apply for a job. If you can get to a store, you can apply for a job. It's pretty damn easy, actually. The ones that don't usually have paper applications available if you ask.
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MillCreek

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #97 on: March 06, 2013, 07:57:09 PM »
How many of you believe in hiring someone to shoot me in the face if I don't give over my money for your beliefs?


Me.  Otherwise, society will run out of money to pay for the people to shoot you in the face.  But we will make sure that your taxes are allocated solely to this.  =D
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MillCreek
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Gewehr98

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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #98 on: March 06, 2013, 08:54:13 PM »
Quote
How many of you believe in hiring someone to shoot me in the face if I don't give over my money for your beliefs?

I'm kinda strapped for cash right now, but I could throw a little bit that way.  What's the minimum contribution?   :laugh:
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Re: How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?
« Reply #99 on: March 06, 2013, 10:02:54 PM »
While I "get" wanting the libertarian utopia as the ideal, I personally would be happy with a pause in the growth of the welfare state.

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