Author Topic: A young witch of my acquaintance...  (Read 14955 times)

Perd Hapley

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A young witch of my acquaintance...
« on: March 27, 2006, 07:47:31 PM »
There is a girl who attends youth activities at my church who seems quite taken with Wicca or perhaps other "paganisms," if I may coin a term.  I don't know how seriously she takes it all, and I guess I would like to talk about this with some of the pagans here present, or any others who see this kind of interest in pagan beliefs among young folk.  I'm not necessarily asking how I can "save her soul," I just find the whole situation interesting and sad, for reasons I will try to explain.

This girl is about 19 or 20 right now, and has been coming to some of our church services for years.  She doesn't attend Sunday mornings or with any regularity, as she lives in the inner-city and our church is in a town on the outskirts of the city.  From time to time our pastor or another church member will drive in to pick her up, along with her brother.  I think she has attended other churches besides ours, so I believe there is a lot of "religion" in her upbringing.  In the three years I have attended the church, she seems to have grown rather antagonistic towards its beliefs and teachings, but like many teenagers, she comes more for social reasons, it would seem.  Most of the children and teens are from families that don't attend church or have any strong religious beliefs.  

The tension is understandable.  She is Black, from the inner-city, and an avowed Democrat.  I'm sure she has accepted a lot of the political opinions that prevail in such a milieu.  My church, generally, is white and Republican.  A lot of our members are older and more rural, I personally am a young redneck.  Specifically, our pastor and many members profess an old-fashioned Wesleyan/Nazarene religion that eschews theater-going and jewelry and that says women should dress like women (dresses and skirts only please).*  

Now my pastor is perfectly willing to politely discuss any doctrinal or political differences one might have.  Heck, I disagree with him on some major points of doctrine and he still selected me to be a deacon - twice. Mersades, however, just sits in her seat and grumbles, or makes her own dogmatic assertions to gainsay the speaker.  Anything one says that she finds offensive she cannot bear with any patience.  I don't wish to be mean, and I say this only to explain the situation, but the young lady is neither articulate nor altogether bright.  A more polite way to say it, perhaps, is that she has much opinion, but little understanding.  I mean to say that intelligent conversation with her is difficult.  This is not merely a matter of cultural difference.  I suspect there is something traumatic in her background that causes her to divert her eyes from others when she speaks to them, and gives her a bit of a chip on her shoulder.  Last week, in fact, she said during a youth group meeting that she hates some of her family members, and wouldn't mind if they died.  Now, I guess teenagers are prone to such drama, but I think we all felt there was more to it than that.  

In the past months, she has sometimes worn pentacles/pentagrams and has talked about witchcraft.  Interestingly enough, she has also been involved with a Unitarian Universalist Church.  It is in this same interval that she begun complaining about our church's beliefs, eg. that we are sexists (guilty), intolerant (not guilty), etc.  I really wouldn't mind talking about this stuff with her, but unfortunately, she just can't be reasoned with.

I would appreciate any useful input or just meaningful opinions on paganism as sincere belief versus individualistic rebellion.


*Yeah, I know, before I started going, I didn't think there were any people like that left.  Now I've bought into much of it, and married into the rest.  Smiley  No regrets.
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A young witch of my acquaintance...
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2006, 08:02:02 PM »
Based on the few wiccans I know, she is going to have to learn to be more tollerant of people with different views than herself.

It is possible (and common) that she is wearing the items simply to be different or to get a rise out of other church members. The fact that she continues to attend *various* churches would seem to indicate to me that she has a little too much time on her hands. If she had a true interest in Paganism she would be pursuing it, and I dont think she would go to your Church.

What is most confusing is that she chose to wear the symbols in the Church with the firm knowledge of how they would be recieved, if she were simply *curious* about paganism she wouldnt feel the need to wear anything, but if she were commited enough to the idea, then she would have no reason to walk into a church. The whole thing doesnt add up to me.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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A young witch of my acquaintance...
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2006, 08:05:24 PM »
Sounds to me like she's there because she likes the drama she creates.

She's all hat and no cauldron, to corrupt the old saw.  Owning the first season of 'Charmed' on DVD don't mean you're anything but an Alyssa Milano/Shannon Dougherty fan with a bad case of cathode-ray tube diabetes.

Be Christian, be charitable and accepting. A little grease will quiet the squeak, or make it go squeak somewhere else in time.  Given her espoused dogmas, I don't see her attraction for your particular flavor over the UU's, as she'd be a closer fit with them.  That reinforces my feeling that it's all for the show.  She can't get a rise out of the UU's as she does from the Wesleyrenes.   Y'all probably have better doughnuts, though.



BTW, pagans don't proseletyze.  The real pagans I know- and there are plenty- for the most part are pretty quiet about their beliefs, with the general exception of the flamboyant ones. The quiet ones know who those are and tend to distance themselves a bit.


May the god of your choice bless you.

Regards,
Rabbit.
To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2006, 08:12:27 PM »
c_yeager,

I think you're right, but keep in mind that she doesn't have a car, and therefore goes wherever she can get a ride to.  I don't know what her digs are like in the inner-city, but I would imagine she is glad to get out whenever she can.  And as I said, she has known some of our members for years.  Speaking of tension, she sometimes stays overnight with our shy, inhibited piano player/church treasurer; a young lady who is as stubbornly fundamentalist as they come.  A lot of those kids, even though they may act rebellious, are desperate for anyone who can show them a little love and guidance.  She may grumble, but on some level, I think she is glad that we care enough to drive a long way into a rough part of town to include her in our fellowship.
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RevDisk

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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2006, 08:36:07 PM »
Wicca is just one form of paganism.  Think denomination or sect.  Witchcraft is seperate, and is a bit harder to define.   Sorcery, divination, et al are general types of witchcraft.  One can be a pagan and not practice witchcraft.  


As a generic pagan, I've seen her type come and go.   Wait a couple weeks, she'll move onto some other fad once she realizes how boring witchcraft is.  I might be wrong, but on personal experience and what you've said, I'd say her interest in any pagan beliefs or witchcraft in general (they are different) is a fad.  Ask her how much study and research she's put into her new interest.  



The individualistic teen rebellion thing does not a witch make.  True, all of us were teens once.  Most pagans I know tend to be rather quiet about their beliefs unless asked or it comes up naturally during discussion.   As a rule, few pagans go to conservative churches and complain about ideological points.   Pagans like any other group has a wide variety of beliefs and attitudes, but generally do not bother other religious communities if unprovoked.  

My suggestion is simple.  Find a decent local pagan with at least a decade of experience and ask him/her to talk to the young girl.    Not to seem overly pessemistic, but I suspect her interest would fade quickly when reality does not measure up to Hollywood special effects.   I recommend the website http://www.witchvox.com for locating local pagans or pagan groups that you might direct her to.

I have to agree with Sylvilagus Aquaticus, most likely, all hat and no cauldron.  Most likely, she is trying to get attention.  Tis not a bad thing per se, but it can be bloody well annoying at times.    Best of luck to the both of ya.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2006, 03:13:47 AM »
Quote
Y'all probably have better doughnuts, though.
Believe it or not, the church has a rule against food in the building, too.  Based on scripture, no less.  I am not kidding.

We did have some on the Sunday School bus last Sunday, though.  Unfortunately, they were Krispy Kremes - booo-ring.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2006, 03:22:12 AM »
RevDisk, thanks for chiming in.

Quote from: RevDisk
Wicca is just one form of paganism.  Think denomination or sect.  Witchcraft is seperate, and is a bit harder to define.   Sorcery, divination, et al are general types of witchcraft.  One can be a pagan and not practice witchcraft.
Yeah, I know.  I really don't know what specific beliefs/practices she is into.  


 
Quote
Ask her how much study and research she's put into her new interest.
Yeah, maybe I'll try a little more dialogue, frustrating though that may be.  



Quote
The individualistic teen rebellion thing does not a witch make.
Worked for Fairuza Balk.  Smiley

Quote
Find a decent local pagan with at least a decade of experience and ask him/her to talk to the young girl.
Do you really think I'm going to do that?
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LadySmith

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A young witch of my acquaintance...
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2006, 04:03:10 AM »
From a BTDT perspective, I was kind of like Mersades. I was enraged and in much need of spiritual comfort, but didn't know where to find it. I was raised around various Christian beliefs, but it was so-called Christians who were the main source of my pain and anger. And I didn't feel very Christian in the hatred I felt or the vengeance I sought. So I dabbled in Black Magic, Voodoo, anything that could give me power when I felt so powerless. I avoided eye contact. I'd heard that eyes are the gateways to the soul, and I didn't want anyone to see what was in mine. I mumbled a lot. It's hard to talk when you're highly p.o.'d , and I was mad all of the time. All I wanted to do was hit (like I'd been hit) and hurt (like I was hurting). That didn't require any language skills. The cause of all this negativity? Look to the family members she wouldn't mind seeing dead. Someone there let her down in such a big way that she doesn't trust anything associated with them, especially what they called their religion. She's trying to find fault because her concept of God and religion were mixed up with whomever damaged her. So she's acting out by going towards what she thinks is the opposite. She'll find no solace there. She won't until she realizes the wrong-doer is not the religion.
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BrokenPaw

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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2006, 04:29:47 AM »
I'm going to have to agree with the "all hat, no cauldron" consensus.  We occasionally get visitors of that sort at my Grove, and they rarely stay for long once they realize that the rest of us "grown-up" pagans are more about exploring our own spirituality and philosophy, and less about Macbeth-esque bubbling cauldrons and Mysterious Rites Under The Dark Moon (or insert whatever stereotypical claptrap you like).

One thing I'll add, though is this:  When I was 20, I knew everything.  And I didn't just know it, I KNEW it.  It was only when I got to spending some serious time alone in Mohammed's desert in '97 that I realized how very little I knew, and that I'd better get to the learning.

This young lady can't be taught, because she "knows" everything, already.  And it doesn't matter whether the thing she "knows" is Wicca, or Asatru, or Pentecostalism; there'll be no reasoning with her until she figures out that being twenty does not a Senescent Old One make.

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Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

BrokenPaw

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A young witch of my acquaintance...
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2006, 04:37:48 AM »
BTW, fistful, your thread title almost scans as the first line of a limerick.

A limerick bouncing around in my subconscious is a dangerous thing:

A young witch of my acquaintance
drove the ladies at church quite to faintness.
The pastor, of course,
said "Get off your high horse,
And go get some spiritual maint'nance!"

Ok, yes, it's awful.  This is your penance for titling your thread thus.  Smiley

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

Tallpine

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A young witch of my acquaintance...
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2006, 04:58:12 AM »
A basic tenent of paganism as I understand (and practice) is to allow everyone the freedom to follow their own spiritual path as long as they don't harm anyone else.  That hasn't kept me - when the subject comes up - of mentioning the great harm that abusive "christian" churches have done, both to my family and others that I have observed.

I'm not sure why she bothers coming to your church - it would be a little bit like you attending a sacred circle and then shouting out "JC is Lord!" right in the middle.  (you don't do that do you...?)

I suppose that you could either:
a) practice some of that endless love and charity that you christians always profess to have
b) gently suggest that she might be happier if she attend a worship service more in line with her personal beliefs
c) burn her at the stake (just kidding ... I hope...?)



BTW, I used to be a "christian" - and was even a deacon for a while - but I escaped from the church Smiley
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RevDisk

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A young witch of my acquaintance...
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2006, 05:06:45 AM »
Quote from: fistful
Do you really think I'm going to do that?
Sure, why not?  

Quote
One thing I'll add, though is this:  When I was 20, I knew everything.  And I didn't just know it, I KNEW it.  It was only when I got to spending some serious time alone in Mohammed's desert in '97 that I realized how very little I knew, and that I'd better get to the learning.
We have a saying, polish comes from the cities, wisdom comes from the desert.  

And yes, that limerick is quite horrible.  Tongue
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2006, 05:37:25 AM »
>anything that could give me power when I felt so powerless.<

DINGDINGDING! We have a winnah!

 There are a LOT of younger peole drawn to paganism because they feel absolutely powerless, and this offers a way to take power over their lives. The thought that "Magick* will fix everything!" draws 'em... then they run when told "you can't just cast a spell for money: you have to try getting a job, too!"...

 Chalk me up in the "all hat" collum: hate to say it, but it sounds like a phase. She may grow into a mature Pagan, or back into a Christian, or whatever other path that draws her. But what you're describing sounds a LOT like teen rebellion...

 If you want, Fistful, I could see about finding someone in your area to talk to her. I know some fairly down to earth people...

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2006, 09:18:47 AM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
 If you want, Fistful, I could see about finding someone in your area to talk to her. I know some fairly down to earth people...
Quote from: RevDisk
Find a decent local pagan with at least a decade of experience and ask him/her to talk to the young girl.
What is it with you people?  Perhaps you think any religion is fine, as long as it works for her.  Well, we monotheists don't think this way at all.  Christians, or at least some of us, BELIEVE in the tenets of our religion, and that Christ was not joking when he claimed to be The Way, The Truth and The Life.  I would not dream of introducing her to someone who might encourage her to follow a false religion.  In my view, any other belief than Christianity is a rejection of the God that made and loves each one of us, and therefore not good for us or anyone else.  Of course you will all be shocked at my supposed intolerance.
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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2006, 09:55:48 AM »
hmmm... notice a distinct lack of shock here...

 Not saying "introduce someone who will encourage her". Introducing her to another pagan (and NOT someone who is another teenager full of angst, who's found a great way to rebel) might wake her up as to her actual beliefs...

 You might think we're trying to get people to believe the way we do: that's a Christian thing (I think it's called "witnessing"). We don't do that. I don't expect you to accept other beliefs as valid, fistful: if you agreed that my religious views were "correct", I'd have to question your being Christian. I DO expect you to show some respect for differing beliefs. However, showing a bit of respect for the beliefs of another doesn't mean you have to agree with them!

 The girl may be sincere in becoming Pagan: wouldn't you rather she found a teacher that would help her grow as a person, rather than denounce her choice as wrong? Especially if that teacher could help her decide that Paganism is wrong for her (as I think would happen in this case)? Instead of ranting that we're offering to help, maybe you should be glad that the girl has SOME connection to divinity, unlike many of today's kids that have NO faith in anything...

 We all want to help kids when they seem lost: this is our way of offering help. Or was this thread meant to get help from others in "showing her the right way, through Christ"... despite your assertions to the contrary?

mfree

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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2006, 10:09:57 AM »
Fistful,

"What is it with you people?"

Let's rewind a little bit...

"I'm not necessarily asking how I can 'save her soul,'"

Aren't you, now? I'd take Hunter Rose's advice here, and it goes without saying that you have religious influences that make a de facto bias.

So do you want her to become a well adjusted human being any way it happens, or are you looking for how to "bring her back to the flock"? There's going to be a huge difference in approach here.

RevDisk

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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2006, 10:23:43 AM »
Quote from: fistful
What is it with you people?  Perhaps you think any religion is fine, as long as it works for her.  Well, we monotheists don't think this way at all.  Christians, or at least some of us, BELIEVE in the tenets of our religion, and that Christ was not joking when he claimed to be The Way, The Truth and The Life.  I would not dream of introducing her to someone who might encourage her to follow a false religion.  In my view, any other belief than Christianity is a rejection of the God that made and loves each one of us, and therefore not good for us or anyone else.  Of course you will all be shocked at my supposed intolerance.
No, I suspect zero pagans here would be shocked.   Yanno, I'd say you might want to consider what it says about you, but I suspect it's a waste of time.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2006, 10:30:08 AM »
Quote from: fistful
What is it with you people?  Perhaps you think any religion is fine, as long as it works for her.  Well, we monotheists don't think this way at all.  Christians, or at least some of us, BELIEVE in the tenets of our religion, and that Christ was not joking when he claimed to be The Way, The Truth and The Life.  I would not dream of introducing her to someone who might encourage her to follow a false religion.  In my view, any other belief than Christianity is a rejection of the God that made and loves each one of us, and therefore not good for us or anyone else.  Of course you will all be shocked at my supposed intolerance.
Actually I dont find your intollerance to be the least bit shocking, and I dont think anyone else is shocked either. Intollerance is a pretty common experience for many people at the hands of religious absolutists of all stripes. She does have a right, even under Christian doctrine, to be a "heathen". To you that means she is going to "hell", but like it or not, your belief is not the only one, and there is nothing that you can say or do to convince the world otherwise. There are people here and all over the world that would believe that she has finally found a true path to spiritual completeness. You arent any more right than they are.

You are also making some wildly innacurate assumptions about the religious beliefs if your fellow members here, a lot of people will be quite pleased with her in her abandoment of Christianity.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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A young witch of my acquaintance...
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2006, 11:09:58 AM »
Excuse me, maybe you missed this:


BTW, pagans don't proseletyze.  The real pagans I know- and there are plenty- for the most part are pretty quiet about their beliefs, with the general exception of the flamboyant ones. The quiet ones know who those are and tend to distance themselves a bit.


Any paganish person I've ever met who was 'rounding up recruits' was doing it for their own power/ego trip and is trying to exploit some gullible person who can't think for themselves.

The Folk tend to be quite content to be left the frell alone.

You asked nicely, I responded nicely. We ain't getting up a bus to go right now.  I respect your opinion and religious preferences.  I believe you're most assuredly guaranteed and entitled to them.  If she wants to ride on your wagon, I think that's great, if you want her to come along.

Myself, I think this is about to degenerate into an argument between children as to whose imaginary friend can beat up the others' imaginary friends.  I'm out now.


Regards,
Rabbit.
To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.
Albert Einstein

Justin

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« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2006, 11:35:41 AM »
Quote
Do you really think I'm going to do that?
The potential for pegging the unintentional comedy meter is quite high.

/Just sayin'
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« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2006, 01:09:25 PM »
Quote
It is in this same interval that she begun complaining about our church's beliefs, eg. that we are sexists (guilty), intolerant (not guilty), etc.
Quote
What is it with you people?  Perhaps you think any religion is fine, as long as it works for her.  Well, we monotheists don't think this way at all ... I would not dream of introducing her to someone who might encourage her to follow a false religion.  In my view, any other belief than Christianity is a rejection of the God that made and loves each one of us, and therefore not good for us or anyone else.
Has it occured to you that it is the hypocrisy of your Church that has driven her from the flock?

Harold Tuttle

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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2006, 03:41:14 PM »
how do you know she's a witch?

There is a simple way to figure out if she is a witch or not.
Witches burn, and what else burns?
Wood!
Yes, and wood floats. What else floats?
... A duck?
Yes! So if this woman weighs as much as a duck, than she is a witch!
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He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

Standing Wolf

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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2006, 03:52:38 PM »
I used to go to the whisky church.

My kitty keeps warning me not to offend the Great Cat.

Personally, I doubt I'll ever understand how people who have more than one pair of socks, which are, after all, just socks, believe in just one god.

Life is mysterious.
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grampster

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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2006, 05:08:53 PM »
Nobody can make decisions for anybody else.  Each person needs to make their bed and be prepared to sleep in it.
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Antibubba

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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2006, 05:30:46 PM »
Quote
Y'all probably have better doughnuts, though.
Quote
Believe it or not, the church has a rule against food in the building, too.  Based on scripture, no less.  I am not kidding.

We did have some on the Sunday School bus last Sunday, though.  Unfortunately, they were Krispy Kremes - booo-ring.
And from that it is easily ascertained that yours is not a Jewish congregation!  Cheesy
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.