A young witch of my acquaintance...

[Strings]

Another friend of mine suggested you send her to the library. She (the friend) said she went through a similar pahse, and researched as many religions as she could before settling on Wicca as the one that most "spoke" to her...

 'Course, that isn't what you wanted to hear either, is it? You're kinda shooting yourself in the foot here...

[Perd Hapley]

It is in this same interval that she begun complaining about our church's beliefs, eg. that we are sexists (guilty), intolerant (not guilty), etc.

What is it with you people?  Perhaps you think any religion is fine, as long as it works for her.  Well, we monotheists don't think this way at all ... I would not dream of introducing her to someone who might encourage her to follow a false religion.  In my view, any other belief than Christianity is a rejection of the God that made and loves each one of us, and therefore not good for us or anyone else.

Has it occured to you that it is the hypocrisy of your Church that has driven her from the flock?

Whoa!  Bit of a rush to judgement there, don't you think?  I guess you find the second quotation to be intolerant.  If so, you misunderstand the word "tolerate." *  Secondly, even if you are correct, you can only accuse me, and not my church, which is unaware of my statements here.  


I stand corrected in one regard.  I should have said, "Of course you will all lecture me for my supposed intolerance," which of course you have.  Maybe disgusted would have been a better word than shocked.  In another way, I have no way of predicting how some of you will respond, because I have learned to think in a completely different way than most of my generation.

How can I explain the differences between two ways of thinking?  I do not view religion as something I do to help myself feel better, or as a smorgasboard where I pick what "speaks to me," as HR put it.  Of course my religion speaks to me and makes me feel better, but it would be silly for me to accept the radical, even foolish claims that are central to Christianity, without some evidence for the truth thereof.  No matter how your religion or your secular belief system makes you feel, don't you want some concrete evidence that the things you believe in correspond to reality?  Gun-haters and pacifists feel like better people for having such high ideals, but they do so only by ignoring the facts.  Christianity is a faith based on factual evidence that leads strongly to certain conclusions.  This is why Christianity has always been a proselytizing religion; because Christians believe they are right.  Christianity is a religion that makes claims about the real world that can be proven or disproven.  What other religion makes such claims that can withstand scrutiny?  


To put it another way, how can I pick what will help me have "SOME connection to Divinity"?  I can manipulate my feelings any number of ways, but how can that tell me whether God is pleased with me, or whether I am actually a good person?


*Tolerating something implies that you don't like it or don't approve of it.  If I viewed other religions as acceptable ways to God, there would be no occasion for tolerance.  If I didn't tolerate paganism, I wouldn't be talking with pagans on this forum.  If my church was intolerant, this young lady would not be allowed to participate.

[Perd Hapley]

Guess I'm dumb, Justin, but I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[Perd Hapley]

wouldn't you rather she found a teacher that would help her grow as a person, rather than denounce her choice as wrong? Especially if that teacher could help her decide that Paganism is wrong for her (as I think would happen in this case)? Instead of ranting that we're offering to help, maybe you should be glad that the girl has SOME connection to divinity, unlike many of today's kids that have NO faith in anything...

So do you want her to become a well adjusted human being any way it happens, or are you looking for how to "bring her back to the flock"?

Another friend of mine suggested you send her to the library. She (the friend) said she went through a similar pahse, and researched as many religions as she could before settling on Wicca as the one that most "spoke" to her...

Let me provide another point of view on these issues.  Suppose that, like me, you knew that your religion was by far the best way for anyone to "grow as a person" and "become well-adjusted."  Would you encourage this person to go to someone with an inferior method?  What if you knew, as I do, that the only way to have any "connection to divinity" or find what really "speaks" to you, is to follow this particular religion?  And what if you also knew that a rejection of your religion meant terrible, eternal suffering?  Think of it this way, and perhaps you will understand where I am coming from.

I'm sorry, Hunter Rose, but she has NO "connection to divinity".  God is hovering over her with his arms outstretched, just as He is with all of us, but she will never have any "connection" with Him until she chooses to - through Christ, but you knew I would say that.

Perhaps we are really very similar.  If a fifteen-year old girl told you that she would, tomorrow, begin a career in pornography because it would make her feel like a whole and fulfilled person, would you take her to meet various "mature" porn producers to talk to her about the business?  But perhaps that is too tame.  If a young person told you they looked forward to a life of crime, would you introduce them to gang members?  If I come up with enough examples, I will name something that you find morally wrong that you will steer the kid away from.

[Guest]

Perhaps we are really very similar.  If a fifteen-year old girl told you that she would, tomorrow, begin a career in pornography because it would make her feel like a whole and fulfilled person, would you take her to meet various "mature" porn producers to talk to her about the business?  But perhaps that is too tame.  If a young person told you they looked forward to a life of crime, would you introduce them to gang members?  If I come up with enough examples, I will name something that you find morally wrong that you will steer the kid away from.

So you place Paganism on the same plane as pornography and criminal behavior? I really think that perhaps it is you that are misunderstanding the meaning of tolerance. Here is some help:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tolerance

Here is the definition that applies here:

The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

[Strings]

You might also want to rethink how you state things. It seems more and more like what you're looking for from the pagans of the board is help in "saving this girl's soul", "bringing her back to the flock", however you want to put it. Yet you claimed that is NOT what you are interested in...

>I'm sorry, Hunter Rose, but she has NO "connection to divinity".  God is hovering over her with his arms outstretched, just as He is with all of us, but she will never have any "connection" with Him until she chooses to - through Christ, but you knew I would say that.<

I knew you'ld say that. Didn't expect you to outright lie though, which is what you've done in this thread.

 Funny that: don't see anyone else pulling the same trick. Could it be they are stronger in their faiths (whatever they may be), then you are in yours?

 I'd say "think about it awhile", but you won't: everybody not of your belief is wrong. And you flat-out REFUSE to accept that someone else may have a way that works better for them than your way. And yes, that IS intolerant: "If I didn't tolerate paganism, I wouldn't be talking with pagans on this forum." is a BS arguement...

  Somebody please remind me to NOT post in any more of fistful's little fishing expeditions...

[Perd Hapley]

I DO expect you to show some respect for differing beliefs.

Excuse me, sir!  Where I have shown an ounce of disrespect in this thread?  Where?

Not saying "introduce someone who will encourage her". Introducing her to another pagan (and NOT someone who is another teenager full of angst, who's found a great way to rebel) might wake her up as to her actual beliefs...

OK, maybe "encourage" is the wrong word.  This type of person would certainly tell her that Paganism is acceptable, when I would like her to understand that it is not.  I never said I didn't care whether she becomes a Christian; I most certainly do.  It is the only truly vital decision she will ever make.

You might think we're trying to get people to believe the way we do: that's a Christian thing (I think it's called "witnessing"). We don't do that.

You're doing it right now.  You may not be telling me to believe in your specific religious practices, but you are contending for your point of view.  You do not believe it is "right for me" to believe in religious exclusivism.  I am only contending for my point of view, both in this thread and in the youth group this girl attends.  Do you imagine you are any less of an exclusivist than I am?  Don't.

Instead of ranting that we're offering to help,

Post #14 was not a rant; it was an explanation of why I could not do what you suggested.  Apparently, it was a poor one.  Perhaps you all just don't understand how ridiculous that idea seemed to me.  I would no more take her to a pagan for spiritual guidance than I would point her to the Brady Bunch website to learn about handguns.  She can do such things if she so chooses, but why would I have anything to do with it?

 

Or was this thread meant to get help from others in "showing her the right way, through Christ"... despite your assertions to the contrary?

I certainly didn't expect such help from pagans.  As I said in the first paragraph of my first post, I just thought I would ask for their perspective on it.  I am sorry if you just can't deal with my religious beliefs.  Of course I want the girl to be a Christian.  

 

I'm not necessarily asking how I can 'save her soul,'

Let me break this down as simply as I can.  I do want to "save her soul" but that is not a question that thread participants must answer in order to make relevant posts.  Is that helpful?





Time for another game of "Watch moral relativism swallow itself in its own nihilism"!

This episode is dedicated to c_yeager
 

but like it or not, your belief is not the only one, and there is nothing that you can say or do to convince the world otherwise.

My reply:  like it or not, your belief is not the only one, and there is nothing that you can say or do to convince me otherwise.

There are people here and all over the world that would believe that she has finally found a true path to spiritual completeness. You arent any more right than they are.

There are people here and all over the world that would believe that she has just lost all hope of spiritual completeness, because she has rejected the Lover of her soul.  You, Mr./Ms. Yeager, arent any more right than they are.

See how that works?

You are also making some wildly innacurate assumptions about the religious beliefs if your fellow members here, a lot of people will be quite pleased with her in her abandoment of Christianity.

I guess you thought I believed we are all good Christians here?  I must again refer to my first paragraph, first post.  

I would like to talk about this with some of the pagans here present

So you place Paganism on the same plane as pornography and criminal behavior?

Sir, to help people like yourself understand my way of thinking, it was necessary to use examples that some would find morally repugnant.  

The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

And I have respected those beliefs and practices as much as possible considering I abhor them.  Where are my gratuitous anti-pagan remarks?  How have I gone out of my way to insult anyone of another religion?  If I recall correctly, c-yeager was the one accusing my whole church of hypocrisy when he/she doesn't even know which church I am speaking of.  

Any pagan reading my first post, and then expecting I would give paganism a big thumbs-up can only blame himself.  I made clear that I was an old-time religionist.  As such, I don't believe that two contradictory religions can both be correct.  I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but I will tell the truth.

[Perd Hapley]

It seems more and more like what you're looking for from the pagans of the board is help in "saving this girl's soul", "bringing her back to the flock", however you want to put it. Yet you claimed that is NOT what you are interested in...

 Didn't expect you to outright lie though, which is what you've done in this thread.

If anyone could let me know where I said I don't want to proselytize this girl, please find that for me.  Or any place that I tried to get pagans to help me convince her to be as intolerant of their religion as I supposedly am.  

It turns out my "intolerance" was too shocking for some, but if anyone is still reading, I will try to explain tolerance again.  

If my wife disapproved of guns, but let me keep them in the house, that would be tolerance.  As it is, she likes guns.  That is acceptance.  I tolerate other religions.  I do not accept them.  Edited to add, I think that others should not accept them.

[Perd Hapley]

Everybody not of your belief is wrong.

And everybody who does not agree with you on that point is wrong.  But I just played this relativism game.  

And you flat-out REFUSE to accept that someone else may have a way that works better for them than your way.

Quite.  We are all equal.  One way works for all of us, and we all have an equal chance at that one way.

[BrokenPaw]

Fistful,

You came here and asked a question in good faith, and the people who answered you (including myself) answered your question in good faith.  And the question they answered was the one you asked, not the super-double-secret one that you meant, which was, "dear pagan people, how do I convince this girl that your faith is the wrong one for her?"

Your own words, modified to fit a slightly different situation:

Let me provide another point of view on these issues.  Suppose that, like me, you knew that your belief in gun control was by far the best way for anyone to "prevent violence" and "protect the children."  Would you encourage this person to go to a shooting range with someone with an inferior philosophy?

The tenets of your own faith require that a person choose to come to God through Christ the Savior.  Yet you would deny the young lady the right to make an informed decision, by denying her the opportunity to talk to someone who might lead her to make the (in your belief) wrong decision.  How gracious of you.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and guess that, in the past, you've beed outraged by the fact that Sarah Brady and her ilk want to take away guns because of what you might do with them.

Yet you come here and tell us that you don't want this girl to listen to words you disagree with, because of what she might do with them.

And before you bring up a canard along the lines of "guns are just a worldly issue, this is someone's immortal soul we're talking about", I submit:  the issue of whether a person should be allowed to own guns has broader implications than whether a person has found Jesus.  Why?  Because a person's faith, by the definitions of your own beliefs (as well as ours), can only have an effect on their own soul; no one can go to Hell (or heaven, or the Summerlands) for what another person believes.  But a person with a gun has a power beyond faith; they have the power to easily terminate another person's free will.  So if you would prevent this girl from learning about paths other than Christ, you'd better make sure she never owns a gun, because she might shoot someone who was just about to accept the Gospel...

Look not too deeply into thine own philosophy, sir, lest thou shouldst find a hypocrite.

-BrokenPaw
Minister of Shadowgrove, an Earthwalk Spiritual Ministries affiliate

[Perd Hapley]

BrokenPaw,

I thank you for your opinion.  I am amazed at this secret question business, which has me trying to get pagans to convert this girl to my "intolerant" anti-pagan faith.  I would have thought it obvious that any information or insight I gained here might be used to persuade her against your type of religion and toward mine.  But I was thinking like a monotheist.  I had not been aware that the "Whatever works for you" approach to religion was so pervasive that it would simply never occur to some of you that I had a different point of view.  Maybe I didn't stress strongly enough the fundamentalist nature of myself and my church.  

But let's review.  If there was any underlying motive to this thread it was this: reassure me this will all blow over.  And that was the response I got, at first.  I expected more response from fellow monotheists who might have a viewpoint similar to mine.  Such people might have helped me evilly brainwash, oops, I mean convert the girl.  But I just didn't expect a lot of help from pagans in that regard.  I'm sorry fellows, but I don't think you are all that helpful for such a question.  But now it seems you are surprised and betrayed that I am not going to help her go down the wrong path.  

I get too far ahead of myself.  It looks like my comments about "false religion" were fightin' words.  What else ought a pagan to expect from a Christian?  That is part of my belief system that you all should have expected.  All this talk about intolerant Christians and you expect me to be the exception?  

And your contention, BrokenPaw, that I am keeping her from making a choice and denying information is just pulled out of thin air.  I see this young lady every week or two at church.  That's it.  I don't know how I could possibly weild the power over her that you describe.  

FWIW, let me try again.  Let's say you know a young person who is leaning toward White Power ideas.  You're sure it's a fad.  Do you take them to a White supremacist to talk it over with them?  I would not.  Whether the person is a skinhead, a Jehovah's Witness, a left-wing talk show host, a gun-control advocate, a homosexual, or a pagan, I'll not be a party to such things.  If a young person wants to explore that kind of thing, they are free to do so.  But putting them under the influence of people who are themselves misled would just not be rational or loving.  Would I introduce them to someone who teaches racial equality; a Christian apologist who demonstrates the fallacies of the Watchtower organization; a right-thinking talk show ideologue, a gun-rights activist, an Exodus worker or a Christian speaker?  Of course.  This would be to expose them to good information.  I believe that some things are right and some things are wrong.  It's that simple.  The girl will make up her own mind eventually, but I will try to guide her on the right path, just as I was guided.

[RevDisk]

Hey fistful?   If you ever in your life wonder why pagans might be twitchy towards such fine Christians like yourself, re-read your own statements.   I don't CCW because I worry about being mugged.   I CCW because of folks like you.   Yea, I know, you'd never do such a thing, violence is not kosher, blah blah blah.   In another thread, you acted surprised that any Christian would attack a pagan, and claimed such a person acted in a very un-Christian manner (true enough).   With beliefs like your's, mano, how the heck could you be shocked that folks with similiar beliefs to your own sometimes turn towards violence?



You have every right to your opinion.  Notice none of the pagans are attacking your religion.  You even were nice enough to meantion that we all gave you the benefit of a doubt, and thought that you might have good intentions.   Trying to convince others that you're such a wonderful Christian, and spouting off half the things you're spouting off, seem to be self-defeating.  

No offense, but you're not just shooting yourself in the foot, you're going for slide lock.   Please do keep it up, it's providing me with a heck of a lot of entertainment.

[mfree]

"This type of person would certainly tell her that Paganism is acceptable, when I would like her to understand that it is not."

I'm sorry, where's the tolerance here? The only thing shocking here is how you're essentially deriding paganism and then assuming the role of "victim" because nobody's agreeing with you.

I also particularly love how you equate paganism, which is by all account a bastion of acceptace, with racism and other hate groups.

Remind me never to discuss religion with you, ever.

[BrokenPaw]

But let's review.  If there was any underlying motive to this thread it was this: reassure me this will all blow over.

It probably will "blow over".  But.  If you come to a man's house to ask for his advice in dealing with a situation (and remember, none of us approached you) it's generally considered bad form to kick his dog, slap his wife, and malign his children, and give the finger to his grandma on the way out the door.  Which is what you've done, metaphorically.

We thought you wanted help in doing what was best for her.  You know, the young (but adult) woman you asked about?  The one whose life you're so grandly trying to guide against her apparent wishes?

It's not about what you want, fistful.  It's about what the young lady in question wants.  She's an adult, and she has (even by your doctrine) free will.  So let her have it.  Or don't.  But don't ask a bunch of people, whose core philosophies you despise, what they think, and then get into a snit when they tell you something that's different from what you want to hear.

Besides, if we're all so wrongheaded, ignorant, and otherwise misguided, why bother asking us in the first place?

Carry on.  You'll get no more help from me.

-BP, out.

[Stickjockey]

Fistful-

First off, yes it's most likely a phase of rebellion or an attention-getting scheme and will pass, although the fact that she's stated that she hated family members and wouldn't mind seeing them dead indicates some emotional/family issues that would be better addressed by professional counselling, not a duel of Deities.

That said, if the idea of getting her together with someone of the pagan community is abhorrent to you, why not turn it around? Get her together with your Minister/Priest and have them help her explore her beliefs. If she decides that Christianity isn't for her, then get her together with BrokePaw. :evilgrin:

[Justin]

Guess I'm dumb, Justin, but I'm not sure what you're talking about.

In my experience, when a wannabe of any flavor is confronted with someone who knows what they're talking about, hilarity typically ensues.

Girl claims to be into Wicca/Paganism/Druidism/Jawaism or whatever.  Someone here suggested that perhaps you ought to introduce her to someone who actually is in that particular vein of belief, since she's just putting on an affectation for shock value.

[brimic]

I think Justin, Rev Disk, Hunter Rose, and others are on the right track for advice. If you believe that she will be damned because of her beliefs, its not your fault, its hers, you know free will and all.   If you really want to succeed in turning her away from your Christian beliefs all you have to do is be pushy with her with your beliefs.  
We all have to find our own way in this life one way or another.

....and this is coming from a Christian.

[Perd Hapley]

Hey fistful?   If you ever in your life wonder why pagans might be twitchy towards such fine Christians like yourself, re-read your own statements.

Why, because I remind them there is an absolute standard they should worry about meeting?  Oh, wait, you all do that to me, too.  Because I tell you you're wrong?  Oh, wait, you all have been telling me that for about twenty-four hours now.  

With beliefs like your's, mano, how the heck could you be shocked that folks with similiar beliefs to your own sometimes turn towards violence?

Between the violent drunk and the Yugos, I'm not seeing anyone who's beliefs are similar to mine.  You admitted you didn't know the first thing about the drunk's beliefs.  But this straw man is getting pretty old in recent years.  If you think someone is wrong then you'll probably beat them up.  Right.

Notice none of the pagans are attacking your religion.

Really?  The last twenty-five posts haven't been occupied with an attack on two foundational beliefs of Christianity, that Truth is absolute and that "no one comes to the father except by [Christ]"?  Have you not all been saying that the historical, exclusivist understanding of Christianity is intolerant and therefore wrong?  And did you not just tell me my religious beliefs led naturally to criminal assault?  

You even were nice enough to meantion that we all gave you the benefit of a doubt, and thought that you might have good intentions.   Trying to convince others that you're such a wonderful Christian, and spouting off half the things you're spouting off, seem to be self-defeating.

The first sentence I don't understand.  And actually, I've been trying to demonstrate how much of a fundamentalist I am, so you would understand why the "show her a real pagan" idea wouldn't work for me.

No offense, but you're not just shooting yourself in the foot, you're going for slide lock.   Please do keep it up, it's providing me with a heck of a lot of entertainment.

Whatever keeps you happy.  You have been served.  I'll be back to wait on the rest of you after church.

[Strings]

breakin' my own rule here for a sec (and Blackburn's benefit)...

 It isn't that fistful wants to convert the girl, it's the way he sought advice here from pagans: the group she seems to be turned tword at the moment. I admit, I fell for it: I thought he was wondering how to help her find her own way. Forgot who I was talking to, I guess...

 Read through the first post again, then read through fistful's replies. Tell me he doesn't some across as somewhat two-faced (either by intent, or just simple miscommunication)...

 Still watching, but done posting. Bored now...

[Fjolnirsson]

I'd really like to help. However, after reading through the whole thread, I have nothing useful to add. All that comes to mind are rude responses and sarcastic, inflammatory comments.
Good Luck.

[Perd Hapley]

"This type of person would certainly tell her that Paganism is acceptable, when I would like her to understand that it is not."

I'm sorry, where's the tolerance here?

The tolerance lies in the fact that I wouldn't stop Mersades (which aint her real name, BTW) from worshipping whatever god strikes her fancy, even though I will try to point her to the right one.  But in order to meet your definition of tolerance, I must never object to any point of view.  If I can't object to a religion which I view as false and destructive, then to what, pray, am I free to object?  

The only thing shocking here is how you're essentially deriding paganism and then assuming the role of "victim" because nobody's agreeing with you.

Uh, no, I didn't claim to be victim, at least not prior to your post.  And if anyone feels I have derided paganism, I am sorry they feel that way.  I have only tried to explain why I don't accept it.

I also particularly love how you equate paganism, which is by all account a bastion of acceptace, with racism and other hate groups.

You misunderstand.  If I used skinheads or other groups as examples, it was only to demonstrate how you might act in my place, if one of those groups/activities were in question.  

Remind me never to discuss religion with you, ever.

Why don't you consider the meaning of religion and the nature of truth, and then we'll talk?  Until then, you'll have nothing sensible to add to such a discussion.

[RevDisk]

Really?  The last twenty-five posts haven't been occupied with an attack on two foundational beliefs of Christianity, that Truth is absolute and that "no one comes to the father except by [Christ]"?  Have you not all been saying that the historical, exclusivist understanding of Christianity is intolerant and therefore wrong?  And did you not just tell me my religious beliefs led naturally to criminal assault?

Yanno, I was finished with this thread and about to move on.  But your comments on this one were so off the mark, I wanted to seek clarification.

You're saying that anyone not practicing Christianity is inheriently attacking your religion?  

And no, we said YOU are intolerant, not Christianity or the majority of Christians.  We did not say you were wrong to have your beliefs, we said you were not exactly a nice person for saying very unnice things about us after we sincerely answered your questions in good faith.  Asking for help and then insulting us AFTER getting what you wanted is indeed an unnice act.  You could have been polite and announced your intentions ahead of time.   I suppose insulting other religions up front could have saved some pagans some time.  None of us called made insulting comments towards your religion that I noticed.  


And no, it's not your religious beliefs per se that lead towards violence.  Intolerance combined with fanatism is a dangerous combination, regardless of the religion of the believer.  You acknowledged your intolerance and fundimentalism.  You repeatedly affirmed this, not I.   I merely pointed out that I believe it's a dangerous combination based on my life experience.

[Perd Hapley]

If you come to a man's house to ask for his advice in dealing with a situation (and remember, none of us approached you) it's generally considered bad form to kick his dog, slap his wife, and malign his children, and give the finger to his grandma on the way out the door.  Which is what you've done, metaphorically.

Sorry you feel that way.  I only meant to explain the difference between my way of thinking and yours.  However, I wasn't aware that APS was your turf.  I thought none of us owned it, and we were all equals here.  And I was the one putting out an invitation, and you were the one who approached me.  And then you called me a hypocrite for no particular reason and accused me of some silly subterfuge and of controlling a girl that I really have no particular power over.

We thought you wanted help in doing what was best for her.

Read my first post again.  I never asked for help; I only said I wanted to discuss the phenomenon of kids being attracted to paganism as a form of rebellion.  

The one whose life you're so grandly trying to guide against her apparent wishes?

I liked your limerick, but get off your own high horse.  I only want to share my point of view with her the way you are doing with me.  You know, the same way you tell me I must agree with you or I'm a bad person.  Same thing, but don't imagine I would discuss these things as frankly with her.  You see, since we are both members of a minority religious group, I thought your skin would be at least as tough as mine.  Apparently, I was wrong, and you can't bear to hear the teachings of my religion.

It's not about what you want, fistful.

Of course, it's about what God wants.  

 

But don't ask a bunch of people, whose core philosophies you despise, what they think, and then get into a snit when they tell you something that's different from what you want to hear.

Actually, I thought we could all talk about this without the pagans getting their panties in a twist when I remind them of a few Christian teachings.  A remark was made that seemed bizarre to me, and I tried to explain why.  Maybe I should have done it in a more tactful way, but I was not mean or disrespectful.

Besides, if we're all so wrongheaded, ignorant, and otherwise misguided, why bother asking us in the first place?

Because I didn't realize how irrational and thin-skinned y'all were.

[Perd Hapley]

No, Hunter Rose, I didn't ask for advice.  Read my first post again.

[mfree]

Well, you know, the only way to know for certain is to die, and then you aren't exactly going to be able to tell us anything.

Fistful believes he is right, which makes it impossible to present an opposite view.

I'm probably not the only one who thinks this thread should come to a crashing halt and everyone involved (myself included) to remember who to and not to ask about such things.