A young witch of my acquaintance...

[Perd Hapley]

So the main problem is that she is being disruptive...?   It's your church - do whatever you want.  Either ask her to not come back or else keep talking to her.  Just don't ask us heathens how to convert her to christianity

No, the main problem is that she doesn't know Christ.  If the disruption she causes gets too much in the way of other "seekers," then we ought to ask her not to come.  Unfortunately, our pastor would make that decision and he's too much of a softie.  We're workin' on him.  

Then why did you even bother to start a thread to solicit advice on Paganism in the first place?  Especially given that there's obviously more than one pagan type here who's willing to chime in.  You should have known you weren't going to like the suggestions that you'd get.

I never asked for advice or suggestions.  The pagans on this board have usually been some of the best interlocuters.  I asked for their experience and observations on kids and paganism.  When they told me to send her to a pagan, I tried to explain why that was a silly thing to suggest to a guy like me.  Maybe there was a kinder way to say it, but no one should think I was trying to slap anyone's mother, as this has been compared to.

[Strings]

>When they told me to send her to a pagan, I tried to explain why that was a silly thing to suggest to a guy like me.<

From your descriptions, it might be the best thing for her sake. Not for her soul, not for spiritual growth, but physical safety.

 The real danger here is her finding a "teacher" that would exploit her. Yes, they DO exist... religion is probably THE easiest thing to prevert for a predator.

 I know you're not going to change your mind on this. Just thought I'd point out what my suggestion was meant to help avoid...

[Perd Hapley]

Oh, that is an interesting aspect, HR.  So you are admitting that Jack Chick was right?  

I can't remember how to write hyperlinks on forums, but this URL is for a goofy little gospel tract about the dangers of RPG's; perhaps you've seen it.


http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp  

 Just so you're not confused, I have played a few rounds of AD&D, and learned the dark secret: role-playing is an incredible game format.  I never got to learn any cool secrets of magic, though.  I played a Ranger.  I guess they don't get invited to the sacred rites.

[Strings]

fistful, I know all about Mr Chick: he provides a LOT of laugh on pagan boards...

 While I won't say he's right, religion IS easy to prevert (look at the middle east, or Jonestown). Unfortunately, I can't think of any big cases where paganism was the preverted religion: here in the States, Christianity is the dominant religion, so that's what gets preverted. Paganism, while it would be EXTREMELY easy to prevert, doesn't have the wide-spread acceptance: that's slowly changing...

[Winston Smith]

I've learned so much from this thread.

I see it as a war between two types of existence-defining and meaning-giving. The first type is assuming or attempting to assume that one is irrevocably correct about something and proceeding to further this cause to the fullest extent humanly possible. This belief could be just about anything, from a political opinion, to a hobby, to a relationship, or a drug, or a religious belief.

In terms of religious ideals, there is no hard work in this belief, or at least no real hard work. If one is completely and utterly right, then one doesn't have to go through the constant process of checking in with reality to make sure one isn't doing more harm than good. And by reality I mean more than one's own perception of it, I mean adapting as close as possible to not harming others IN THEIR OWN perception of reality. In this belief, one doesn't have to be accountable to this world, only the next.

The other way is that of doubt. In this belief system one is not always right, and one tries one's own best to operate as well as one can in this world, and doesn't count on anything.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

My personal beliefs: Religion is addiction. Addiction is a crutch. A crutch is for the disabled. I am not disabled. It seems to me like espousing one of these sure-of-themselves ideals is the way of weakness; the way of those too weak or too unwilling to stand self-doubt. I am not too weak to stand self doubt.

I used to smoke a lot of cigarettes. I now realize that I did it because I never wanted to question anything, specifically what I wanted at any given moment. The answer was always cigarettes. And more cigarettes. Cigarettes were my higher power. I never had to be accountable to anything else.

Sometimes, I would walk down the street, and accidentally blow smoke in someone's face, or stink up their store or house right after a smoke, or flick a butt onto their property. That's pretty much what you're doing, fistful. Please, keep your addiction to yourself -- you wont find enabling here.

But, I could be wrong. I's happened before. So I'm going to keep going about my buisness, and keep my mouth generally shut (except for times like these) about this god thing. Cause this would be a shitty issue to have to eat humble pie about.

Speaking of humble, wasn't that a quality that was admired in Jesus?

[RayannaDeerfox]

""Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see [the Babel Fish] as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God.

"" The argument goes something like this:  'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

"" 'But,' says Man, 'the Babel Fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it?  It could not have evolved by chance.  It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own argument, you don't.  QED.'

"" 'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"" 'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.""

Thank you Douglas Adams and the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Sorry... I just had to.....

[Perd Hapley]

Interesting, Rayanna.  FWIW, the God who is nothing without faith assumes a view of God as something Man made up, who goes away when we don't believe in Him.  In my view, God, by definition, necessarily exists (the universe need not exist, but God must) and is never surprised by things He hadn't thought of.

I haven't read the Hitchhikers Guide, yet, but I always liked the fact that the meaning of life turned out to be a number.  

[Perd Hapley]

Hunter Rose,

Some of the symbolism and moral teachings of Christianity may dominate in America, but the true dominant, majority religion is like this:

1. There is a God.

2. If I pray real hard and try to behave, he'll do things for me.

3. If I am generally a good person, AND TRY TO RAISE MY KIDS RIGHT, then I will go to heaven.  Hell is reserved for murderers, genocidal tyrants and people who produce reality TV shows.

I used to listen to a Christian morning show, on which the hosts interviewed everybody from Larry Flint to Tim Lahaye and then asked them, "If you die today, and God asks why you should go to heaven, what would you say?"  The answer usually went along the lines of point 3.  Americans seem to regard raising their children well to be a great work of virtue.

[Strings]

you ALMOST caught me in one of my own pet peeves: I almost didn't read through that post...

 In a way, you're right: that DOES seem to be the dominant version of religious belief in the States. When I was saying "dominant religion", I was refering to one with some form of organization.

BTW: the heaven/hell thing? That's a Judeau/Christian concept, really...

[Tallpine]

"BTW: the heaven/hell thing? That's a Judeau/Christian concept, really..."

The first century Jews disagreed on the heaven/hell thing - thus the Sadduces and Pharisees

[LawDog]

There are those who believe that the proto-religion that became Judeo-Christianity started as a belief in both a God and a Goddess.  El (God the Father) had Eloah (God the Mother).  Later, the masculine Abba had a feminine counterpart, Eema.

The belief in a Goddess mate to God has died out over the thousands of years.  Traces still linger in the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene and even just plain old Mother Nature.

If you are further interested, Google 'Christo-Pagans" or "demi-pagans".

Or not.  Up to you.

As far as responding to your request for advice, my advice is:  if the young lady is deliberately disruptive, ask her to leave.

Otherwise, I'd let her question and seek, so that she may ultimately find her own path.

LawDog

[Perd Hapley]

OK, after LawDog's post, I'm going to conclude that my first post must have appeared to be a request for advice.

As far as responding to your request for advice...

I guess that it might be correctly taken as such, in a way, as SADShooter pointed out.

By starting the thread, you implied that the discussion might result in action on your part.

Really, though, I find hers to be a sad situation, and I just wanted to talk about it.  However, if anyone took it as a Christian asking pagans for advice on how to persuade her to be a Christian, or even if it looks like I wanted her to find any way that she thinks is the correct one - then I guess I'll just chalk that up to a cursory reading that missed the details.  Understandable.

She was at church last night, and up to her usual behavior.  As I mentioned before, we hadn't gone to pick her up lately, but as a result, one of her friends stopped coming.  The pastor finally did tell her that she shouldn't plan on coming anymore, as she showed "no interest in Christianity," and is more interested in talking about her own beliefs while deriding ours.  I don't know how long that will last, though, as the preacher-man will worry himself sick that he should have done more to help her.  Time will tell.

[Strings]

>The pastor finally did tell her that she shouldn't plan on coming anymore, as she showed "no interest in Christianity," and is more interested in talking about her own beliefs while deriding ours.  I don't know how long that will last, though, as the preacher-man will worry himself sick that he should have done more to help her.  Time will tell.<

Honestly, it's probably for the best that she NOT show: if all she wants to do is deride your beliefs, her being there doesn't serve any real purpose. I've met a LOT of pagans that never grow beyond "Christianity sucks": at the pagan board I mod on, I tend to step on such sentiments, since they REALLY aren't constructive...

 Sometimes fistful, you have to write things off as "I tried my damnedest". this sounds like one of those times...

[Perd Hapley]

Hey, Lawdog, what does this goddess stuff have to do with the conversation?  I don't care about threadjacking; I do it all the time.  I just wonder why you mention it.

[Perd Hapley]

Post 95:  In which fistful reconsiders, yet recants not

Forgive my non-standard sentence construction.  My current church prefers the King James Version, and I have been reading it lately.  It's fun.

I have reread each of my former posts and, as Hunter Rose advised long ago, there are two posts where I might have been a little more conciliatory.  I still wouldn't say I was disrespectful, mean, or anything of that sort, but I'm sorry for using words or a tone that were so easily taken the wrong way.  If tempted, don't bother to respond with, "Well, fistful, it takes a big man to apologize."  I should have been big enough to slow down and be more considerate.  


In post 14, I should have explained myself a little more, because that is where the whole thread went sour.  I'm sure we would still have had this debate, but not so heatedly.

Post 49 -

Actually, I thought we could all talk about this without the pagans getting their panties in a twist when I remind them of a few Christian teachings.

Too flippant.

Besides, if we're all so wrongheaded, ignorant, and otherwise misguided, why bother asking us in the first place?

Because I didn't realize how irrational and thin-skinned y'all were.

I'm very sorry about that one.  While I find some of the opinions expressed to be irrational and I do think some have been unduly defensive, I shouldn't have made such a dismissive remark.  Especially considering I bear some of the blame for the acrimony.  And it is to your credit, BP, that you are willing to keep talking after that.  Thanks for your consideration.


I shan't apologize for this post - I just bring it up again because I thought it was a great bit, and don't want it to be lost.  Post 75:

No one has posted for some time.  There must be some Black Sabbath afoot.  I will alert the elders.  

When do you stop the attempt at proselytizing one who would not adhere to your religion?

Normally, we stop when restraining orders have been filed against three or more of our evangelists.  In some cases, though, we stop when the unconverted dies painfully in the arms of his false god.  If the heathen comes not to the faith under extreme torture, he will surely bear more easily the torments of hell.

I'm kidding, of course...

...about the restraining orders.  We bow not the knee to heathen governments!    

It's gold, Jerry, gold!  

And this one I bring up because I want you pagans to know that I am glad you guys hang around here.

Post 80 -

The pagans on this board have usually been some of the best interlocuters.  I asked for their experience and observations on kids and paganism.

[LawDog]

Hey, Lawdog, what does this goddess stuff have to do with the conversation?

Some pagans do attend Christian churches.  

Some attend because of a belief that at its' roots Christianity is a pagan religion, they just wrote out the Goddess along the way.

Others attend Christian churches because it provides a ready-made masculine God as balance and consort to the Goddess.  

In Africa I've seen some Christian churches where the entire baptized congregation were active pagans.

Frankly, though, the chance that your wannabe witch fits either of these examples is slim at best.

LawDog

[Perd Hapley]

So, if only we had a goddess, we'd be pagans?

[280plus]

I haven't read the whole thread, sorry I picked up on it so late. But I did catch the part were you guys are at now and after reading lawdogs posts I want to tell you to pick up (if you can find it) a copy of the book "The Psychology of Myth, Folklore and Religion" by Leo Schneiderman. Leo was a psych prof of mine and in this book he explains his theories of how Pagan religious ritual evolved into modern day fairy tales and the like.

Then there's another, "I, the Aboriginal" by Douglas Lockwood

In this book is the story of an Australian Aboriginal who is a Pagan Holy Man as well as the Deacon of his local Christian church. A very compelling narrative of the conflicts that arise in him because of this and his other dealings as a connection between the old and the new.

[Marnoot]

Some attend because of a belief that at its' roots Christianity is a pagan religion, they just wrote out the Goddess along the way.

At its Hebrew roots, this is pretty much the case (more Judaism than Christianity perhaps, but Judaism's history is also that of Christianity). While I have my own theories as to the why and how this evolution took place, the fact is, as I understand it, that early Hebrews worshipped a small pantheon consisting of the high God El, his wife Asherah, their sons Yahweh and Baal, and other unnamed sons. Over time, the various gods were essentially merged into the Yahweh personage.

It would take a little explanation of Mormon theology for me to explain my theory as to why/how this originated and evolved, but that would be some major thread drift, so I won't so indulge. However, it would be difficult to call Christians Pagan under any circumstances, as I believe the word (in that usage) was originally used by Christians to refer to any that did not worship the Biblical deity. (Yes, I know the word's original usage was as a word describing those who lived in the 'country'/rural area.) Although really, I think it's just a circumstance where the word has different meanings depending on who's using it. One man's Pagan is another man's. . . something. . . I got up too early today and can't think of a good ending for that sentence; stupid Mondays...

[LawDog]

So, if only we had a goddess, we'd be pagans?

If you revere a deity other than the one described in the Bible, you'd be a pagan -- as far as Christians are concerned.

Well, that and "heathen", "idolator", "damned" and whole bunch of other stuff.

Since the God described in the Old and New Testaments seems to be exclusively male, revering a Goddess would seem to make you a pagan.

However, if it's a field test you want, I suggest the phrase "In the name of the Mother, the Son and Holy Spirit" after a prayer in church, then noting the reactions of the congregation.

I suggest, however, if you try this experiment, do so in a church you don't mind getting kicked out of.

LawDog

[Strings]

>However, if it's a field test you want, I suggest the phrase "In the name of the Mother, the Son and Holy Spirit" after a prayer in church, then noting the reactions of the congregation.

I suggest, however, if you try this experiment, do so in a church you don't mind getting kicked out of.<

LawDog... ever heard of the Politiclly Correct bible? Yep, it exists... "God, the Father/Mother who art n heaven..."

 Oh... anyone trying LawDog's test, a couple other suggestions: sit near the exit, and wear body-armor. Depending on the congregation, you MIGHT have to fight your way out...

[LawDog]

*snort*

The thought had occured to suggest the wearing of running shoes and strategic location of seating with regards to pre-existing exits in mind, but I didn't want to alarm him.  

LawDog

[RevDisk]

Some attend because of a belief that at its' roots Christianity is a pagan religion, they just wrote out the Goddess along the way.

At its Hebrew roots, this is pretty much the case (more Judaism than Christianity perhaps, but Judaism's history is also that of Christianity). While I have my own theories as to the why and how this evolution took place, the fact is, as I understand it, that early Hebrews worshipped a small pantheon consisting of the high God El, his wife Asherah, their sons Yahweh and Baal, and other unnamed sons. Over time, the various gods were essentially merged into the Yahweh personage.

I sincerely hope you've read SnowCrash.   If not, I'd definitely pick up a copy if you have any interest in Asherah.  From what I understand, it was Hezekiah/Ezekias that tried to wipe Asherah out of living memory, roughly about the time of the Deuteronomist.   Think of it as an early information warfare campaign.

[Perd Hapley]

I know I said I was out, but it seems perhaps I misjudged fistful's intentions and attitude, so I'm back in, in order to apologize if I did so.

Thanks.

fistful, I understand that you are following what your beliefs tell you to do in dealing with this particular young lady.  That's all any of us can do.  I took offense not because you believe what you believe, and not even because you actively dismiss what I believe.

Thanks again, except that I wouldn't say I dismiss what you believe.  I did make a dismissive comment that I regret, which I apologized for in post 95.  I don't know much of your religious beliefs, but those aspects you have presented I have responded to.  I hope I haven't done so dismissively, but rather have agreed with some and tried to explain my disagreement with others.  As far as which gods you may worship or what rituals you may practice, you haven't said much about them and I have only said that I believe mine and don't believe yours.  OK, I also found it necessary to say that other religions are...bad.  But again, only in an effort to explain my way of thinking.  

I took offense because your tone seemed to contain derision when you spoke about the beliefs of people who are not Christian.  It's entirely possible to disagree with someone vehemently, and still treat that person with respect, and to respect that they're not stupid just because they don't agree with you.

Yeah, I should have stated things differently, but I especially agree on the issue of thinking your opponents are stupid.  It is something far too prevelant in politics and social issues.

With regard to your historical proofs of Christ's divinity:  I don't believe anyone here has attempted to disprove anything about the basis of your (or any other Christian's) faith.

I know what you are trying to say, but I have mentioned before that exclusivism and absolute truth are part of the basis of Christianity, which you seem to agree with.  But it looks like you missed this question which was directed to me:

If your particular faith truly is the one true way, I, for one, would be very interested in seeing some tangible proof.

End Part I of this response

Edited because I used "your" when I should have used "you're."  I've never done that before, honest!  

I feel so dirty.