Author Topic: 'Excessive force' claimed in BART shooting (Read 13344 times)

geronimotwo · « **Reply #25 on:** January 07, 2009, 06:42:02 PM »

http://www.beststungun.com/advanced-taser-m18l.html

so would something like this be what he thought he had in his hand?

HankB · « **Reply #26 on:** January 07, 2009, 07:09:17 PM »

I watched some of the videos, shot from different angles.

It looked like an execution.

The triggerman ought to be tried for murder . . . possibly with special circumstances.

The other cops ought to be fired for failing to take the killer into custody immediately.

jackdanson · « **Reply #27 on:** January 07, 2009, 07:41:52 PM »

Yeah, actually it would probably be 2nd degree. Looked like a horrible accident, but I couldn't tell from the vids. No reason to be pulling a taser anyway, they had him pinned down... if 4 cops can't get cuffs on a guy who is face first on the ground without using a taser they need to look into a new line of work. I don't know how you could possibly confuse a taser and a pistol anyway.

Wonder how it would have went before we all had cameras..... uhh yeah.. he was uhh grabbing at my gun.....

ilbob · « **Reply #28 on:** January 07, 2009, 08:20:34 PM »

Quote from: Balog on January 07, 2009, 06:05:42 PM

I'd say a proper use for the Taser is unarmed people forcibly resisting. A lot of the bad uses we see are people just sitting/laying down who get shocked for non-compliance.

actually most of the bad ones seem to be more for sport than anything else.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #29 on:** January 07, 2009, 08:47:58 PM »

actually most of the bad ones seem to be more for sport than anything else.

could you show an example?
h

jackdanson · « **Reply #30 on:** January 07, 2009, 10:48:22 PM »

Quote

A lot of the bad uses we see are people just sitting/laying down who get shocked for non-compliance.

Yep... don't tase me bro!!!

That guy was a fool, but come on, if 6 cops can't get cuffs on some college loser without a taser they need to find a new job.

CNYCacher · « **Reply #31 on:** January 07, 2009, 11:12:50 PM »

I have always thought it was monumentally stupid for tasers to be shaped like handguns.

There have been cases in the past of an officer shooting a suspect while attempting to deploy a taser, and I believe that this may be another one.

A deliberate execution in front of hundreds of witnesses is much harder story to believe.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #32 on:** January 07, 2009, 11:22:19 PM »

if 6 cops can't get cuffs on some college loser without a taser they need to find a new job.

how ,many cops were there? and would we be too bold to inquire as to your occupation and experience subduing folks? grown ups i mean

dogmush · « **Reply #33 on:** January 08, 2009, 01:10:51 AM »

Quote

how ,many cops were there? and would we be too bold to inquire as to your occupation and experience subduing folks? grown ups i mean

Between three and five depending on when in the incident you look:

I've worked as a bouncer for 10 years, have subdued (in some cases cuffed and handed over to law enforcement) countless actual grown-ups, most that were drunk and angry, in addition I've been trained by the Army for prisinor taking, searching, and transport, and I'm a Combatives Instructor. All of that was on grown ups too. Those LEO's could have subdued him without the Taser, they tased him because it was easyier. I know you've been beaten down in the past C&SD, but there are better, non-taser, non-nightstick, ways to subdue people being taught now. Taser's are used because they are the easiest form of pain comliance, not the best.

And once again you drag us way off topic.

On the BART Shooting:

I'd be willing to postulate that he thought he was going for his Taser, and didn't relize it was a gun untill it was too late. I'm not convinced I belive that, but I'll give him the benifit of the doubt till there's evidence to the contrary.

He still was grossly negligent and that resulted in the death of an unarmed man. That's the officer's BEST case scenario. I really think he should be tried for murder. Not first degree, I don't see pre-meditation here, but definatly murder.

On the officer's statement, he might well have 5 days by union rules, but it was a bad plan to take them in this case. He might just be tramatized, and trying to cope, but what it looks like from the outside is the cops are taking time to get their story straight, and start a cover up. In a case that's going to be as emotionally and racially charged as this on obviously will be, the Transit Athourity should be bending over backward for the apperance of transparancy, not the appearence of closing ranks.

MicroBalrog · « **Reply #34 on:** January 08, 2009, 02:34:44 AM »

Quote from: dogmush on January 08, 2009, 01:10:51 AM

Between three and five depending on when in the incident you look:

C&SD already stated in the past that people who ask insolent questions of Senators and don't immediately obey police, and instead move along 10 seconds laters deserve to be 'punched in the chops' - his words, not mine.

El Tejon · « **Reply #35 on:** January 08, 2009, 07:32:53 AM »

Taser? Who cares if the cop thought it was a different kind of deadly weapon?

When the gang banger A shoots gang banger B with an "unloaded" pistol, will gang banger A be prosecuted.

Ummm, yeah, he will and so should the cop.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #36 on:** January 08, 2009, 08:22:55 AM »

so is 3 to 5 a number greater or less than 6? in your world view.
i am led to believe that taser use causes less harm than hands on. on both sides. and from what i've seen its true. it does make the tough guys girl up pretty fast and it makes some folks sqeamish. less so than a night stick would. i just wish the jolt would make em quiet. been tased been "subdued" by folks with training choice is easy

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #37 on:** January 08, 2009, 08:27:27 AM »

C&SD already stated in the past that people who ask insolent questions of Senators and don't immediately obey police, and instead move along 10 seconds laters deserve to be 'punched in the chops' - his words, not mine.

when soeone is a self described troublemaker goes looking for confrontation and gets it i cry no tears especially when he girls up so quick no hero was he no wonder the revolution flounders if hes what is on the barricades. bet hes tougher in a wookie suit.in my world view when the folks who own operate a place tell you to go you infringe on their rights and earn the right to a face full of fist

dogmush · « **Reply #38 on:** January 08, 2009, 08:43:39 AM »

Quote from: cassandra and sara's daddy on January 08, 2009, 08:22:55 AM

so is 3 to 5 a number greater or less than 6? in your world view.

Less then 6 (I took Calculus for that) I never said 6 cops, I was providing the answer to your question.

Quote from: cassandra and sara's daddy on January 08, 2009, 08:22:55 AM

i am led to believe that taser use causes less harm than hands on. on both sides.

On the LEO's side? Definatlly. On the tazee's side? Sometimes, sometimes not. It depends on a lot of variables. That's real life for you. I stand by my statement that LEO's use Tazers because it is the easiest, and safest (for them) method of pain compliance. I make this statement from having witnessed hundreds of tazings, and working with LEO's from three different agencies. YMMV. Making tough guys "girl up" is not actually the pupose of detaining or restraining someone, so it's not really relevant here.

Regardless of the proper use of a Tazer, this cop had a gun and that's the tool we should be addressing here. Was this a proper time/circumstance to SHOOT someone?

I know you love pulling threads off topic, but if you'd like to start one discussing the proper use of pain compliance, I'd be happy to chime in on it. We could discuss Asps, night sticks, tasers, et. al.

Back on topic;

After more watching I see two realistic scenarios:

1. He ment to shoot the guy. = Murder. There was nothing there that required deadly force. Sorry thin blue line, but that's what escilation of force is for.

2. He didn't meant to shoot the guy. (thought the pistol was a taser or whatever) = Manslaughter. He had an accident, and someone died.

Either way, I really think criminal charges should be brought here.

For your reading pleasure, CA criminal code:

Quote

Homicide Charges Defined
HOMICIDE is the killing of one human being by another, either lawfully or unlawfully. Homicide includes both Murder and Manslaughter.
MURDER is defined as the unlawful and unjustified killing of another human being with malice aforethought. (Penal Code Â§187). “Malice Aforethought” is defined as an intention to unlawfully kill a human being.
MANSLAUGHTER is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought. Essentially, the difference between manslaughter and murder is that manslaughter was the result of an accident.

MicroBalrog · « **Reply #39 on:** January 08, 2009, 09:33:29 AM »

Quote

when soeone is a self described troublemaker goes looking for confrontation and gets it i cry no tears especially when he girls up so

He was peacefully asking the Senator a question. I don't see how asking Senator's question earns you a faceful of fist.

Manedwolf · « **Reply #40 on:** January 08, 2009, 10:39:57 AM »

Oakland had riots last night.

Quote

Protests over BART shooting turn violent

A protest over the fatal shooting by a BART police officer of an unarmed man mushroomed into several hours of violence Wednesday night as demonstrators smashed storefronts and cars, set several cars ablaze and blocked streets in downtown Oakland.

The roving mob expressed fury at police and frustration over society's racial injustice. Yet the demonstrators were often indiscriminate, frequently targeting the businesses and prized possessions of people of color.

They smashed a hair salon, a pharmacy and several restaurants. Police in riot gear tried to control the crowd, but some people retreated along 14th Street and bashed cars along the way.

The mob smashed the windows at Creative African Braids on 14th Street, and a woman walked out of the shop holding a baby in her arms.

"This is our business," shouted Leemu Topka, the black owner of the salon she started four years ago. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"

Wednesday night's vandalism victims had nothing to do with the shooting death by a BART police officer of Oscar Grant on New Year's Day - but that did little to sway the mob.

"I feel like the night is going great," said Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, one of the demonstrators. "I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back. It's for the murder of a black male."

Sykes, who is black, had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.

"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."

The protest had started calmly shortly after 3 p.m. at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, where BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle shot 22-year-old Grant of Hayward a week ago. BART shut down the station well into the evening commute, although the demonstration there was peaceful.

However, shortly after nightfall, a group of roughly 200 protesters split off and headed toward downtown Oakland, prompting the transit agency to close the Lake Merritt and 12th Street stations. The group wreaked havoc through much of downtown, drawing hundreds of police in riot gear. It wasn't until roughly 10:40 p.m that police clamped down on the mob, arresting dozens who were cornered near the Paramount Theatre, and bringing an end to the mayhem.

Earlier in the evening, Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums met the mob on 14th Street, urging calm and leading them on a walk to City Hall, where he gave a speech.

"I sense your frustration," he told the crowd. "I understand that you've lost confidence in a process because you've seen what you believe is a homicide ... But listen to me, we are a community of people. We are civilized people. We are a nation of laws.

"I'm asking people to disperse," the mayor said to the couple hundred people in the crowd. "Let's leave in a spirit of peace."

But soon after, a man shouted "that's the modern day lynching" and the mob quickly continued its rampage, smashing at least seven storefronts on 17th street between Franklin and Webster streets. They also smashed eight cars, including four belonging to the City of Oakland.

Near 14th and Alice streets, Myron Bell was taking dance lessons in "step," a form of dance popular among African Americans, when he looked out the window and saw people jumping on his Lexus sedan.

Bell, 42, came out to find that almost all of the car's windows, including the front and back had been smashed and it appeared that someone had tried to set the car on fire.

"I'm for the cause," said Bell, who is black. "But I'm against the violence and destruction."

Nearby, Godhuli Bose stood near her smashed Toyota Corolla as a man walked by, repeatedly called her a misogynist slur and then added, "F- your car."

Bose, a high school teacher, said: "I can't afford this."

Earlier in the evening, when the mob first appeared downtown, Oakland Police Officer Michael Cardoza parked his car across the intersection of Eighth and Madison streets, to prevent traffic from flowing toward Broadway and into the protest. But he told The Chronicle that a group of 30 to 40 protesters quickly surrounded his car and started smashing it with bottles and rocks.

Cardoza jumped out of the car and said some protesters tried to set the car on fire, while others jumped on top of the hood - incidents repeatedly shown on television. Cardoza said the protesters "were trying to entice us into doing something." A Chronicle reporter saw a fist-sized rock in the back seat.

A group of protesters also set a trash bin aflame, moving it adjacent to the police car.

Police threw tear gas into the group to disperse it, said BART Sgt. Mark MacAulay. After 8 p.m., there were numerous arrests.

"When you get that mob mentality, it can be dangerous," MacAulay said.

Other protesters marched on BART's 12th Street Station about 7 p.m., prompting the transit agency to close the downtown hub station even as it was reopening the Lake Merritt and Fruitvale stations.

The mob blocked the intersection of 14th and Broadway, near the downtown BART station entrance. As police put on helmets and gas masks and stood in a line formation, some demonstrators held signs that read, "Your idea of justice?" and "Jail Killer Cops."

One man lay in the intersection with his face down and his hands behind his back - intentionally evoking the position that Grant was in when he was shot.

Some in the mob wore masks over their faces as they yelled at police. Roughly a dozen stood just a few feet away from police as they screamed at them. Chants included "pigs go home," "the fascist police, no justice, no peace" and "we are all Oscar Grant."

Mandingo Hayes, who is black, said he participated in the protest because "we're tired of all these police agencies getting away with shooting unarmed black and Latino males."

Hayes, 36, downplayed the attack on the police car.

"For a police car to get abused, and for a person to get shot and killed, which would you rather be?" said Hayes, a construction worker from San Pablo.

As the night wore on, Hayes tried calming people down, asking for peace.

The core group of the mob appeared to be about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributed the "Revolution" newspaper - whose tagline is "voice of the Revolutionary Communist Party, U.S.A." - as he shouted "This whole damn system is guilty!"

Soo Jung Sung didn't understand why she was to blame. She wept as she looked at the shattered front windshield of her Nissan Montero.

"Emotionally, I totally understand them," she said of the upset over Grant's shooting. "But it's not nice."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2009/01/08/MN2N155CN1.DTL

makattak · « **Reply #41 on:** January 08, 2009, 10:46:29 AM »

Ah yes, the response of leftists:

We're ticked off about what the government did!

Let's go destroy the livelihood of completely unrelated people!!!!

Balog · « **Reply #42 on:** January 08, 2009, 10:48:56 AM »

Quote

The roving mob expressed fury at police and frustration over society's racial injustice. Yet the demonstrators were often indiscriminate, frequently targeting the businesses and prized possessions of people of color.

Manedwolf · « **Reply #43 on:** January 08, 2009, 10:51:18 AM »

Quote from: Balog on January 08, 2009, 10:48:56 AM

And this, too.

Quote

The core group of the mob appeared to be about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributed the "Revolution" newspaper - whose tagline is "voice of the Revolutionary Communist Party, U.S.A." - as he shouted "This whole damn system is guilty!"

I think they're getting more violent now.

HankB · « **Reply #44 on:** January 08, 2009, 11:06:12 AM »

Quote

The mob smashed the windows at Creative African Braids on 14th Street, and a woman walked out of the shop holding a baby in her arms.

"This is our business," shouted Leemu Topka, the black owner of the salon she started four years ago. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"

Today's thugs are worse than animals - at least many of them understand that they shouldn't cr@p where they eat.

I'm all for peaceful protest, even noisy peaceful protest . . . but when a mob turns violent, that's a riot; with arson, looting, and rock throwing (ever get brained by a brick?) people are being endangered, so I believe gunfire is a justifiable response.

Balog · « **Reply #45 on:** January 08, 2009, 11:14:34 AM »

Maned: because the Irwinator turned off nesting quotes nothing transferred over.

jackdanson · « **Reply #46 on:** January 08, 2009, 11:48:29 AM »

Quote

so is 3 to 5 a number greater or less than 6? in your world view.
i am led to believe that taser use causes less harm than hands on. on both sides. and from what i've seen its true. it does make the tough guys girl up pretty fast and it makes some folks sqeamish. less so than a night stick would. i just wish the jolt would make em quiet. been tased been "subdued" by folks with training choice is easy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE

Time of tasering.. 2 minutes in... 7 cops, 6 within arms length. count em.

So what were the charges put on this guy, btw? I'm just trying to remember what he did wrong. If you believe talking longer than your allotted time is punishable by tasering maybe you should watch cspan for a few minutes... I hope I get to be the guy to taser the politicians.....

Quote

Oakland had riots last night.

Who didn't see that coming? Destroying an african braids store.. That'll show the man!!!

El Tejon · « **Reply #47 on:** January 08, 2009, 12:48:34 PM »

Quote

"that's the modern day lynching"

I find myself agreeing with a sandal-clad Lefty.

Manedwolf · « **Reply #48 on:** January 08, 2009, 01:37:23 PM »

Quote

OAKLAND — Family members of Oscar Grant III, who was shot and killed by a Bay Area Rapid Transit police officer early New Year's Day, allege in a $25 million claim they filed today that BART police officers violated his civil rights, illegally detained him and used excessive force.

That was quick.

The demand for a free lottery win comes before the demand for a capital murder investigation? Interesting family.

Uncle Bubba · « **Reply #49 on:** January 08, 2009, 02:02:07 PM »

Quote from: jackdanson on January 08, 2009, 11:48:29 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE

Time of tasering.. 2 minutes in... 7 cops, 6 within arms length. count em.

So what were the charges put on this guy, btw? I'm just trying to remember what he did wrong. If you believe talking longer than your allotted time is punishable by tasering maybe you should watch cspan for a few minutes... I hope I get to be the guy to taser the politicians.....

Who didn't see that coming? Destroying an african braids store.. That'll show the man!!!

That's not the whole incident. That vid just shows the final act(s).

It wasn't just that he'd been up there far longer than the time alloted and allowed per questioner, it's that he was getting more off-the-wall as time went on and he was taking up time that was supposed to go to other people.

The point of the matter was that he agreed to abide by the rules of the event and then decided, or decided beforehand and lied about it, that those rules, and further the rules of etiquette and manners, and even further the laws that require you to comply with a police officer's instructions, didn't apply to him. That attitude got him an unnecessary Tasering (IMNSHO), removal from the premises, arrest, and criminal charges for disturbing the peace and obstruction.

News:

Author Topic: 'Excessive force' claimed in BART shooting (Read 13344 times)