Author Topic: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs  (Read 7638 times)

BryanP

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2012, 01:04:15 PM »
What's ATW? ???

On a mostly-unrelated topic, how does plutonium even have a critical mass?  All its isotopes are just alpha-emitters.  Spontaneous fission?  Or maybe one of the isotopes decays into something throws off a neutron or three when IT decays...



Accelerator Transmutation Of Waste
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zxcvbob

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2012, 01:17:41 PM »
Accelerator Transmutation Of Waste
  Thanks.  I'm usually pretty good at acronyms but had nothing to draw from.
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2012, 01:44:50 PM »

BTW, on the related subject of the DoE, does anyone here recall what their original charter was?

I'm not even going to hint.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2012, 01:51:40 PM »
BTW, on the related subject of the DoE, does anyone here recall what their original charter was?

I'm not even going to hint.

Before I google it, I'm going to make a WAG and say to promote nuclear power (and handle our nuclear weapons stockpile).

Viking

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2012, 05:29:30 PM »
BTW, on the related subject of the DoE, does anyone here recall what their original charter was?

I'm not even going to hint.
Make sure the price of oil didn't shoot through the roof?
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birdman

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2012, 05:36:23 PM »
Before I google it, I'm going to make a WAG and say to promote nuclear power (and handle our nuclear weapons stockpile).

It was to make weapons.  Energy was secondary.

The missile is a DOD item, the warhead is a DOE controlled item (and AEC before that)

birdman

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2012, 05:37:44 PM »
If we had continued on a path of energy conservation and a shift away from petroleum, we could have crippled the Middle East during the oil glut of the mid-1980's.  (probably crippled Houston and New Orleans too) and we might not be fighting the Islamic extremists now -- they would no longer be relevant.  We had them on the run, and instead we went back to big inefficient cars for the next 10 years.

There was a book out in the 1970's about alternative energy sources.  I can't remember the title well enough to find it on google; I'll have to search upstairs and see if I can find my old copy.  One example from it that stuck in my mind was to build a hydroelectric dam across the mouth of a long narrow bay [unfortunately it was in the Middle East] and wait about a year for evaporation to drop the water level enough to begin electricity generation.  The cool part was the water in the bay would get more and more concentrated until the salts would start precipitating out and could be dredged out to harvest the metals.  The gold that could be mined would be worth more than the electricity.  They had the technology to do all that 40 years ago.

We should have taken on a national challenge to see how far we could drive down the price of oil ($2 a barrel?) just to screw with the Arabs.

ETA: I remembered the author's first name (thought it was his last name), and that was enough to track it down:  Energy for Survival: The Alternative to Extinction by Wilson Clark.

The conservation /alternative fuels push in the 70's was economically flawed (conservation restricts economic growth...basically, we wouldn't have had the 80's) or technologically premature (alternative fuels)

birdman

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2012, 05:38:36 PM »
If you burn uranium in a nuclear reactor, you get plutonium whether you want it or not.  (oversimplification, I know)  Why not recycle it? 

Not if it's weapons grade.  Then you don't get any plutonium.

That's why the initial load for thorium plants uses HEU when possible.

birdman

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2012, 05:41:50 PM »
What's ATW? ???

On a mostly-unrelated topic, how does plutonium even have a critical mass?  All its isotopes are just alpha-emitters.  Spontaneous fission?  Or maybe one of the isotopes decays into something throws off a neutron or three when IT decays...

Plutonium is fissionable, just like uranium, and both spontaneously fission.  When fissioned, neutrons are released.  If number of neutrons/fission at cause additional fissions is 1, (the remaining 2.2-2.8 leave the mass) the mass is critical.

Even isotopes WITHOUT spontaneous fission have a critical mass, they just need an initial neutron to get it going (ironically, these can come from cosmic rays quite reliably).  Critical mass is a function of geometry, whatever absorption is present, atom density and fission cross section of the material.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2012, 06:07:33 PM »
Even isotopes WITHOUT spontaneous fission have a critical mass.....

What's the critical mass to fission Protium?  [popcorn]

birdman

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2012, 06:42:36 PM »
What's the critical mass to fission Protium?  [popcorn]

Infinity.  I left out "fissionable" isotopes (ie those where the neutron energy produced exceeds the minimum neutron energy for fission)

CORRECTION: it's not possible, while protium can be fissioned into a quark-gluon plasma, to do so purely by mass (gravitational compression) would put the mass above the point where the hydrogen would start to fuse.  Of course, supernovae create fissionable materials, and it is possible for a natural critical mass to form on a panet, so I guess the amount would -technically- be 3-10 solar masses...and wait about 4-5 billion years.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 07:15:17 PM by birdman »

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2012, 07:03:20 PM »
Infinity.  I left out "fissionable" isotopes (ie those where the neutron energy produced exceeds the minimum neutron energy for fission)

So, if we get Hydrogen-1 to fission, is that like the cosmic equivalent of dividing by zero?  :lol:

zxcvbob

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2012, 07:10:23 PM »
Plutonium is fissionable, just like uranium, and both spontaneously fission.  When fissioned, neutrons are released.  If number of neutrons/fission at cause additional fissions is 1, (the remaining 2.2-2.8 leave the mass) the mass is critical.

Even isotopes WITHOUT spontaneous fission have a critical mass, they just need an initial neutron to get it going (ironically, these can come from cosmic rays quite reliably).  Critical mass is a function of geometry, whatever absorption is present, atom density and fission cross section of the material.

Thanks.  I didn't know where that first neutron came from.  (and I guess it doesn't matter, if you build it they will come :D)
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Fitz

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2012, 07:15:10 PM »
So, if we get Hydrogen-1 to fission, is that like the cosmic equivalent of dividing by zero?  :lol:

Omg what have you done
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2012, 07:15:45 PM »
Omg what have you done

Nothing that you need to be concerned about... yet...  >:D

drewtam

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2012, 07:22:57 PM »
So, if we get Hydrogen-1 to fission, is that like the cosmic equivalent of dividing by zero?  :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay
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birdman

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2012, 07:27:59 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay

Not observed...yet...no theoretical mechanism defined, and well past the heat or EM (hawking radiation) death of the universe timeframe based on current lower limit timeframes.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2012, 02:17:03 AM »
Thanks for the answer on waste. Not that I understood it very well, but thanks.  =)
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birdman

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2012, 09:28:09 AM »
Probably not quite profitable due to line losses, unless someone comes up with a room temp superconductor that doesn't require high amounts of rare earths. And of course, even a room temp. superconductor that uses the most expensive elements possible hasn't been found either.

So there's generally an economic sweet spot between plant placement to users, and transmission distance.

I've actually used this as an example.  With current exclusion zone limits, a 1-2GW electric nuclear plant is about 1/2 a mile on a side.  We would need about 4000 GW to fully replace all of our energy with synfuels and electric.  That is an area about 1000 square miles.

To put in perspective, the:
nevada test site is....1350 square miles
White sands is...3200 square miles

Line losses to distribute the ~1.25 TW to the rest of the US (average distance about 1500 miles) using EHV lines is about 5-10% and are included in the above calculation

That's based on using 1.1MV EHV lines, distributed over individual lines carrying 500A each (3-phase 1.6GW per line-set), with a resistance of ~0.16ohm/mile (or 240ohms, or about 60 MW loss per GW cable)

Burnup of 50 GWd/ton metal in reactors requires 80 tons of fuel per day, 30,000 per year.  Using breeder reactors, that means our ALREADY MINED stockpile of DU would last 15 years supplying ALL our energy needs (including synthetic gasoline and diesel).

BTW, it's possible to extract uranium from seawater at about $300/kg...so the above fuel would cost $10 billion per year for an effectively infinite supply (Uranium is present at about 3 tons/cubic km of the ocean, so the above consumption would mean 10% of the uranium in the ocean would be able to supply the US for 100,000 years.  Even assuming our energy needs double ever 7-10 years (a FAST economy), this is enough uranium to supply an exponentially growing US for about 2500 YEARS, or the above growth rate for the ENTIRE WORLD for 500-1000yrs.   

Crazy no?

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2012, 10:47:38 AM »

The DoE original charter is described here, and also here, as well as other places.

And, while the various nuclear programs, including weapons, were placed in its domain, the main point of this exercise:

Quote
The Department of Energy was formed after the oil crisis on August 4, 1977 in order to end the United States dependence on foreign oil by President Jimmy Carter's signing of legislation, The Department of Energy Organization Act of 1977.


I would say the DoE needs to be gently reminded of it's original purpose -- energy independence -- and guided back onto the tracks that lead there.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

birdman

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2012, 04:56:34 PM »
The DoE original charter is described here, and also here, as well as other places.

And, while the various nuclear programs, including weapons, were placed in its domain, the main point of this exercise:


I would say the DoE needs to be gently reminded of it's original purpose -- energy independence -- and guided back onto the tracks that lead there.


We DON'T NEED ENERGY INDEPENDENCE thats not how global markets work.  We need cheap energy. Not we can get it cheaper here than there, fine.

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2012, 05:21:55 PM »

Perhaps a better phrasing would be "not dependent for energy on unstable regions in the world."

If we're getting cheap oil from Petrolistan, and one day that country decides they hate us, or they have a little war that cuts off that supply, we can suddenly be hosed economically.

All well and good to have cheap oil (or what have you) on the world market.  Not so good to have our economy depend on the vagaries of the political alignments du jour in some distant land(s).
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2012, 05:30:23 PM »

Actually, I seem to remember something about a shale oil operation in Utah some years back.  It seemed that the operation could be profitable as long as oil was running at or above $35/barrel or something like that.  The response from OPEC (as i recall) was to drop the price of their oil to make shale economically infeasible.

There was some discussion a little while back about reviving that operation.  The break-even would be considerably higher than $35 nowadays, but in the discussion I heard, it seemed that above $85/barrel they were viable again.

Don't recall the details.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

birdman

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2012, 05:45:14 PM »
Perhaps a better phrasing would be "not dependent for energy on unstable regions in the world."

If we're getting cheap oil from Petrolistan, and one day that country decides they hate us, or they have a little war that cuts off that supply, we can suddenly be hosed economically.

All well and good to have cheap oil (or what have you) on the world market.  Not so good to have our economy depend on the vagaries of the political alignments du jour in some distant land(s).

What we need is energy here, at a cost for what we currently get it there (or cheaper).  With the birdman nuke plan, we suddenly become a major oil exporter (in fact, that alone could easily pay for the a significant fraction of the cost of the nuke and synfuel plants).  It also would give us a huge long term edge...we have substantial oil/gas/coal resources, just less than we need....but if we got our energy from nuclear, then we could sell that to countries not as advanced...or just not use it, so we can sell it for more in the future :)

RevDisk

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2012, 06:20:34 PM »

Plastics and other oil byproducts might get interesting. Yes, I know. Gradual phase in, just saying it is another consideration.
 
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