Author Topic: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs  (Read 7639 times)

seeker_two

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2012, 06:28:34 PM »
This is what I like about APS.....lots of DIY advice....

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drewtam

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2012, 08:02:07 PM »

BTW, it's possible to extract uranium from seawater at about $300/kg...so the above fuel would cost $10 billion per year for an effectively infinite supply (Uranium is present at about 3 tons/cubic km of the ocean, so the above consumption would mean 10% of the uranium in the ocean would be able to supply the US for 100,000 years.  Even assuming our energy needs double ever 7-10 years (a FAST economy), this is enough uranium to supply an exponentially growing US for about 2500 YEARS, or the above growth rate for the ENTIRE WORLD for 500-1000yrs.   

Crazy no?

You didn't mention the BEST part. Rivers deliver more uranium to the oceans every year due to natural erosion. To the tune of about 32,000 tons/year. Which is on the same order of how much is needed to completely replace our energy use each year.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2012, 08:05:49 PM »
BTW, it's possible to extract uranium from seawater at about $300/kg...

What's the cost per KG when you dig it out of the ground?

drewtam

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2012, 08:08:42 PM »
Plastics and other oil byproducts might get interesting. Yes, I know. Gradual phase in, just saying it is another consideration.
 


The Fischer-Tropsch process used to create liquid fuels also provides tail products for plastic feedstocks, for example methane, methanol, etc
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Gewehr98

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2012, 08:18:21 PM »
Birdman speaks true - lots of thorium sands in the Indian Ocean part of the globe.

That's how they get their program fueled, and it's another precursor one can look for in the proliferation monitoring business.

Just thinking about how many sniffer planes my agency would need if all those reactors were built to eliminate fossil fuel energy...

Speaking of enrichment and preventing weapons grade U-235/U-238 ratios, I had to do a bit of work with the now-defunct AVLIS program at Lawrence Livermore National Labs.

It was pretty darned neat, and walking through the galleries of dye lasers which pushed sputtered uranium atoms into two separate streams inspired awe.

They offered me a job there, glad I didn't take it now.  
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birdman

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2012, 10:05:40 PM »
Birdman speaks true - lots of thorium sands in the Indian Ocean part of the globe.

That's how they get their program fueled, and it's another precursor one can look for in the proliferation monitoring business.

Just thinking about how many sniffer planes my agency would need if all those reactors were built to eliminate fossil fuel energy...

Speaking of enrichment and preventing weapons grade U-235/U-238 ratios, I had to do a bit of work with the now-defunct AVLIS program at Lawrence Livermore National Labs.

It was pretty darned neat, and walking through the galleries of dye lasers which pushed sputtered uranium atoms into two separate streams inspired awe.

They offered me a job there, glad I didn't take it now.  

They were going to put my lab in the basement where the AVLIS Copper pump lasers were....you know those big concrete footings?  I was standing on them about 3 years ago :)

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2012, 01:31:20 AM »
Got some more questions for Birdman (see what happens when you let slip you're and SME?)  ;)


Is it practicable to build single reactors in the terawatt range?

Is it more energy efficient to simply split water and use the hydrogen as fuel as opposed to synthesizing gasoline and diesel with the Fischer-Tropsch process? (electricity consumed to split the water versus electricity consumed to separate CO2 from seawater, purify the seawater with reverse osmosis, and then using those building blocks to make the long chain hydrocarbons)

drewtam

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2012, 07:07:50 AM »
@kgb

I don't know the answer to the first question.


But as to F-T process...
Yes, it is more energy efficient if one can use the hydrogen directly and avoid F-T. But this only works at short range with extremely short term storage schedule.

Hydrogen is a low density gas. So storage and transportation is a big issue for use in vehicles, which do a lot of storing and transporting. Hydrogen also likes to leak out of containers, not dangerously, just enough to lose money.
The options are:
liquid - compress and cool it to 20K [-250C, -423F] (only an option for NASA)
high pressure gas - compress and store as gas (takes huge tanks, and much lower energy storage)

Both of these options suck. They suck almost as much as batteries. So the storage and transport issue kills the efficiency when automotive and vehicle use is considered. Pipeline use to a chemical factory is probably not a problem.


Converting to methane/nat gas is the next step of difficulty in the potential choices. Nat gas is far and away easier to deal with than H2. Methane is a natural feedstock to make any plastic. For transportation, cryogenic liquid methane is plausible. But still too much of a pita to really catch on. Or use compressed gas storage. Again, tank sizing issue. These options are being heavily explored right now due to the cheapness of nat gas. We have several locomotives and heavy equipment designs slated for introduction in a few years to take advantage of nat gas.


Next level is methanol and ethanol synthesis. Liquid, minor change to engine design, good enough energy storage, maybe cheap enough. Methanol can be converted to DME (dimethyl ether) for a good diesel substitute. Methanol is also a good plastics feedstock.
I strongly suspect that the industry may settle for this compromise.


Next level of difficulty is full replacement synthesis. Full synthetic gasolines and diesels and waxes and plastics. This is probably the most capital expensive route, but also provides drop in replacement of fuel for all older vehicles. I doubt the whole industry is converted to this path.


We may end up at a place in between.
25% methanol + 25% ethanol + 50% octane

Here is why we might end up at that kind of strange compromise...
We already run E10-E15, taking that away will hurt the lobby. We will also have oil for a good long while, but everyone understands that we need additional supplement. So as we supplement in methanol and ethanol to higher and higher levels, there will still be a need for full octanes to balance the gasoline formula. So that may come from oil and a few F-T plants, but since full F-T process is expensive, there will be a push to use more and more meth and eth until we hit some backwards compatible limit. Then will come the political decision to completely jump ship to pure meth/eth mixtures or stick with a meth/eth/octane mixture.

But this will take decades of transition before decision point. Forecasting beyond that is difficult, because who really knows? Maybe one day, batteries won't suck. Maybe at that point the politics of oil will be passe and nobody will feel any pressure to switch further.
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birdman

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2012, 09:13:36 AM »
Got some more questions for Birdman (see what happens when you let slip you're and SME?)  ;)


Is it practicable to build single reactors in the terawatt range?

Is it more energy efficient to simply split water and use the hydrogen as fuel as opposed to synthesizing gasoline and diesel with the Fischer-Tropsch process? (electricity consumed to split the water versus electricity consumed to separate CO2 from seawater, purify the seawater with reverse osmosis, and then using those building blocks to make the long chain hydrocarbons)

Reactors at a terawatt?  Sure, consider that most 3GW thermal (1GW electric) cores are only 15' in diameter and about the same in height, meaning a 1TW thermal power (300GW) reactor core would 'only' be 150ft in diameter and 50ft tall (geometry change for a variety of thermal hydraulic and criticality reasons), require a pressure vessel with 7 foot thick steel walls (instead of 8"), and likely have to be a molten salt system.

It's the balance of plant that would be very hard...heat exchangers would be of comparable size, and the generators are larger than current tech reasonably allows.  However, you could couple that with 300 or so 1GW class generators and go with it.

But why?  It's better to take advantage of mass production and just make 300 identical 3GW cores and put them in one place if that were your goal.

As for the hydrogen question, drew had it right.  The reason I pick methanol/DME is from a transition capital cost for infrastructure and end user equipment changes required, it's the most cost effective as it requires minimal modification to distribution and use infrastructure and vehicles. (cost minimization between efficiency loss of going beyond hydrogen vs equipment changes).

Also, for that large of scale, hydrogen generation is likely a hybrid thermal/electrical process rather than straight electrolysis.

RevDisk

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2012, 01:58:03 PM »
Is it practicable to build single reactors in the terawatt range?

Is it more energy efficient to simply split water and use the hydrogen as fuel as opposed to synthesizing gasoline and diesel with the Fischer-Tropsch process? (electricity consumed to split the water versus electricity consumed to separate CO2 from seawater, purify the seawater with reverse osmosis, and then using those building blocks to make the long chain hydrocarbons)

1. No. Possible, yes. Practical, no. When it goes down for maintenance, that's a huge hole. Standardized conventional reactors would be cheaper, more durable (well, more overall uptime), and easier to build due to capital allocation. You can turn on one as soon as it's built, while the next in the series is being installed. Same reason why all "supercomputers" these days are just clusters of nearly COTS servers.

2. Using hydrogen as a conventional fuel would suck. Hence why it's not used as regularly as plenty of other gasses. Don't get me wrong, it has LOTS of uses. But for the average person? There's a reason why we use profane, gas, diesel, etc. It's relatively easy to work with. Hydrogen is a slippery bugger, if nothing else.

Drew is very much correct.
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robear

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2012, 04:29:15 PM »
Quote
There's a reason why we use profane, gas, diesel, etc.
    :rofl:  :rofl:

If we could use profane as a fuel, we'd never need another source of energy!!!    Imagine a good rush hour!!

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2012, 04:44:38 PM »
    :rofl:  :rofl:

If we could use profane as a fuel, we'd never need another source of energy!!!    Imagine a good rush hour!!

Can vehicles designed to run on scream and laugh use that?  =D

drewtam

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2012, 09:18:37 PM »
Can vehicles designed to run on scream and laugh use that?  =D



http://youtu.be/431KmmNU8rA
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RevDisk

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Re: Paging Birdman on nuclear reactor designs
« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2012, 10:23:33 AM »
    :rofl:  :rofl:

If we could use profane as a fuel, we'd never need another source of energy!!!    Imagine a good rush hour!!

I swear, Autocorrect is the devil at times.
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