Author Topic: Can we afford the F-35?  (Read 12119 times)

MillCreek

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Can we afford the F-35?
« on: February 18, 2013, 07:26:01 PM »
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2136312,00.html

Boy, the costs and the delays continue to mount up.  I wonder when this is ever going to hit the fleet operationally. But then again the Osprey had more than its share of teething problems, and I think it is doing reasonably well right now.
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Fitz

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2013, 07:28:27 PM »
I'll let people who know about this comment

My thoughts are, why do we need it? Seems to me the aircraft it's replacing are doing fine
Fitz

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TommyGunn

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2013, 07:34:59 PM »
I'll let people who know about this comment

My thoughts are, why do we need it? Seems to me the aircraft it's replacing are doing fine
--against the Taliban and such.

If we ever get into a shooting war with Russia or anyone using the latest Russian jets I wonder how our F-18s would do?  I've read some reports indicating .... not so well. :mad:
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bedlamite

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2013, 07:37:52 PM »
We should have spent the F-35 money on more F-22s.
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
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birdman

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2013, 07:39:12 PM »
We should have spent the F-35 money on more F-22s.

Tough to fly those off a carrier.

Fitz

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2013, 07:40:17 PM »
--against the Taliban and such.

If we ever get into a shooting war with Russia or anyone using the latest Russian jets I wonder how our F-18s would do?  I've read some reports indicating .... not so well. :mad:

Not gonna matter much, is it? The plane sucks. And we are bleeding money
Fitz

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MechAg94

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2013, 07:51:00 PM »
--against the Taliban and such.

If we ever get into a shooting war with Russia or anyone using the latest Russian jets I wonder how our F-18s would do?  I've read some reports indicating .... not so well. :mad:
Does that apply to the newer superhornets as well?  I've heard those were as good as most any current fighter.  Plus, we made a habit of overestimating Russian jets during the cold war did we not?

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MechAg94

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 07:51:40 PM »
Tough to fly those off a carrier.
I am wondering if it would be cheaper to modify an F-22 at this point. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

TommyGunn

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2013, 07:56:09 PM »
Does that apply to the newer superhornets as well?  I've heard those were as good as most any current fighter.  Plus, we made a habit of overestimating Russian jets during the cold war did we not?



The newer Sukhois and MiGs are incredibly good fighters.
We did often misestimate Soviet jets during the Cold War.  The MiG 15 was used against the old F-86 Sabre in Korea.  It was a fairly even match.  The Sabre outperformed it during a dive but the MiG out-turned the Sabre in dogfights.  The MiG was slightly technically inferior....OTOH its cannon outpowered the guns in the early Sabre and the MiG's were on a pallet which could be changed out en bloc very quickly while the F-86 guns had to be reloaded while the jet was serviced on the ground.  The Soviets lagged in high tech, but that doesn't mean they were dumb.
They were quite capable of coming up with some really clever ideas for overcoming their technological backwardsness.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2013, 08:06:38 PM »
Question gets brought up almost like clockwork.

Can we afford the Sopwith Camel?

Can we afford the P-51 Mustang?

Can we afford the F-86 Sabre?

Can we afford the F-4 Phantom II?

Can we afford the F-14 Tomcat?

Can we afford the F-22?

And so it goes...
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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lupinus

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2013, 08:07:27 PM »
I'm all for and supportive of staying ahead of the curve.

But the guys designing the thing need a good swift kick in the ass.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

BobR

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2013, 08:29:31 PM »
Question gets brought up almost like clockwork.

Can we afford the Sopwith Camel?

Can we afford the P-51 Mustang?

Can we afford the F-86 Sabre?

Can we afford the F-4 Phantom II?

Can we afford the F-14 Tomcat?

Can we afford the F-22?

And so it goes...

Can we afford to decimate our airborne ASW assets, the P3 squadrons, and replace them with a 737 derivative? It's gonna be kind of tough to shut down a couple of engines on a P8 to extend the time on station (and be able to get home  ;)  ). They also chose not to put a magnetic anomaly detection system on the P8, cause we all know subs are now made out of plastic! But it did gain something that hasn't been on ASW planes in decades, a sniffer. It can detect the burned hydrocarbons from diesel subs or surface ships. We used to chase down tons of surface ships using our sniffer, never did find a sub with it, and then again, those pesky nuke subs have a tendency to keep the burned hydrocarbons to a minimum.  =|

OK, this old P3 sailor is done ranting about this for now.  =D

bob

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2013, 08:42:57 PM »
I am wondering if it would be cheaper to modify an F-22 at this point. 

One cannot modify an aircraft to be carrier capable, its a fundamentally different aircraft.

HForrest

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2013, 08:44:15 PM »
I'm no military expert, so what follows is just conjecture: While I understand the emerging need for a general purpose carrier launched fighter/attack aircraft with stealth capabilities, It seems to me that the development of the F-35 to this point, ridiculously past initial cost goals, at the expense of the F-22 is a poor trade-off. It appears that the F-35's capabilities are generally met today by existing systems, with the exception of stealth capabilities.

But from a layman's perspective, it would seem that most stealth ground attack missions and even light air defense could be better carried out by unmanned systems than the F-35 in the very near future. Since advanced air superiority fighter drones are probably a longer way off, it would make sense to me that we'd put more resources into the F-22.

Blakenzy

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2013, 08:45:30 PM »
Truth is the US cannot afford it. Evidence: the National Debt.

And concerning the F22... wasn't it grounded not so long ago due to life support/oxygen supply troubles? Seems like no one really expects the wunder jets to actually be used. Safe queens, the lot of them.
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seeker_two

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2013, 08:45:57 PM »
Why spend our deficit-dollars on this when the Chinese will just reposess it anyway?....
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Gewehr98

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2013, 08:45:57 PM »
When playing Joint Chiefs USAF mission commander on a Special Projects P-3C out of Barber's Point NAS (VPU-2), I was aghast to see the Patrol Plane Commander shut down and feather the #1 engine.

I quickly produced my checkbook from my flightsuit leg pocket, and told him I'd gladly pay for the kerosene to keep that god-damned engine running.   =D

As for ISR flying on a widebody 757/767 variant?  I'm not real keen on it, but damned if the N/K/R/W/OC135 fleet ain't 50 or more years old. Maintainers gotta have something left to maintain.

At least the Navy got some new-production 707s for the E-6 Mercury Tacamo fleet in the 1980s.  
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Gewehr98

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2013, 08:55:08 PM »
The F-22 was grounded.  It's since been un-grounded.

Show me an emerging weapons system that doesn't have a hitch in the git-along as it enters service.

BTW, the F-22 is USAF only.

The F-35 is USAF, USMC, and USN.  It is intended to replace multiple airframes, to include the F-16 Falcon, AV-8B Harrier, and the older, Not-So-Super F-18 Hornets.

As such, it's a damned complicated system, because each variant for each branch of service has different requirements and different capabilities.

The USAF version is "slick", with runway-only configuration.

The USN version is strengthened with tailhook and stronger landing gear for carrier landings.

The USMC version has a huge ducted fan shaft-driven from the engine to produce V/STOL takeoff and landing ala' AV-8B Harrier. 

You can see how that complicates a procurement bid, design, contract, and build process.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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Gewehr98

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2013, 09:13:16 PM »
I'm scrambling trying to put it in ground-pounder terms so Fitz can relate.

Hmm... (Tongue-in-cheek, but you get my drift)

Don't need or can't afford the HMMWV, besides, there are plenty of M-151 Jeeps still doing what they do best.

Don't need or can't afford the M16A2, there are plenty of slick-side M16s and M16A1s out there.  The M4 is for elitist units that should stop being so prissy and standardize like the rest of the Army.

How 'bout them Patriots?  No, really, have Patriot missile batteries really ever produced the number of intercepts promised?

That durned Bradley Fighting Vehicle, it's aluminum, I tell you!  Why, even the M113 was made of proper steel!

People bitch about us not learning from our mistakes and always planning to fight the last war.

Then they grouse that by upping the ante we've bankrupted ourselves.  

I'm reminded of that old between-war footage where trucks are driving around fields with "TANK" signs on each side, and soldiers are holding broomsticks as rifles.

I'm also old enough to remember the hollow force of the Carter Administration, where jets were parked on the ramps, but if you looked real close you'd see the engine cowls were empty of innards.

We're gonna see austere times with respect to the U.S. military.  That's expected, with the drawdown in Afghanistan and Iraq operations.  

Even during my tenure, overseas bases were closing faster than Charlie Sheen's coke deals.  There's only a handful of them left now.

I understand we as a country have to rein in the budget, and that those cuts are going to be deep.  It needs to happen, but it should happen with some forethought.

Just don't be surprised when those deep cuts knock us off the top of the Superpower hill.  Once upon a time, the sun never set on the British Empire, either...

"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

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Fitz

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2013, 09:17:15 PM »
I get it

I just wonder if the money is ring spent wisely. In addition to the safety concerns, there was a shitload of waste in the F22 project

I am not saying we don't need a new jet. I'm just saying we should be sure that we DO before we do it
Fitz

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Gewehr98

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2013, 09:24:19 PM »
Yeah, but there still should be a solid kick in the posterior of those Pentagon staffers and contractors who flubbed it up.

It wasn't supposed to be so convoluted.

Then again, look what happened with the Crusader self-propelled artillery piece, and the USAF tanker replacement.

Everybody gets their hands into the pie, and we end up over-budget, past due, and with fewer of a given item than we asked for.

Then the senators get pissed because their home states were left out of the fun, and so on...

The YAL-1 Airborne Laser was flown to Davis-Monthan AFB last year, and is sealed up with that white latex stuff, having been cancelled and decommissioned. 

In the meantime, the Norks build liquid-fueled ICBMs that can hit CONUS  - precisely the kind of thing the YAL-1 was designed to shoot down.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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Blakenzy

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2013, 09:31:51 PM »
Should we be referring to all the variants of the F-35 as F-35?? There seems to be considerable enough difference in the airframes that I don't think they can really be called the same aircraft.

One cannot modify an aircraft to be carrier capable, its a fundamentally different aircraft.

And here we have a "standard' jet, a carrier landing capable one and a VTOL one. Seems like quite a stretch to call them all F-35. Specially the VTOL one. That's really out there. Maybe that's why they are having so much trouble. They are trying to create so much diversity within the narrow constraints of making them all "the same". Now that's an exercise in Doublethink...
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Hutch

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2013, 09:36:55 PM »
Why, even the M113 was made of proper steel!

No, it wasn't.

Point being, well, several points.

1). For the cost of the F35, we could put better better AFV's in the field, suitable to the tasks we're faced with now.
2). It seems that UAV/drone technology will advance to the point that we can take the meat out of the cockpit in the near future.
3). It won't matter how sharp the sword of our legionaries, if their families are not safe at home, if the country they defend sinks into anarchy and chaos due to the destruction of its economy.  If we can't do without that turkey of a program, what chance do we have to rein in the entitlement programs that will surely ruin us?
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tokugawa

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2013, 10:14:13 PM »
preacherman has a lot of posts on his blog about the F35. Very interesting. Seems like it was one of those "all things for all men" type of geometrically escalating complexities.
 There is a point when a dedicated system for 4 different roles is cheaper than trying to make one system fit all.
  Sort of like having a nice 16 gauge double for birds, a .50 caliber sniper rifle and a carry piece all in the same gun.......
 
 people say we spend more than the rest of the world together on our defense-
 That does not concern me- what concerns me is how much we get for our money- 

roo_ster

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Re: Can we afford the F-35?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2013, 10:20:35 PM »
We should have spent the F-35 money on more F-22s.

F-22s for USAF.  Super Hornets, and stealthy attack UAVs with HARM for the USN.


Tough to fly those off a carrier.

Super Hornets are still pretty new.

OTOH, no real replacement for the USMC AV-8B Harriers.   Maybe turn some of the Ospreys into A1 Skyraiders from Hell.  

Osprey
Totes 20k lbs stuff
316mph max speed
1000mi range

AV-8B
Totes 13k lbs stuff
675mph max speed
1400mi range

A1 Skyraider
8k lbs ordnance
Max speed 322mph
1300mi range

Haul 20k lbs worth of GPS guided munitions and let them loose from high altitude.  GPS puts the bombs on target.  How close does CAS have to be with GPS guided munitions?
Regards,

roo_ster

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