Author Topic: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.  (Read 107451 times)

Harold Tuttle

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #175 on: July 01, 2009, 02:23:33 PM »
Ya can't play copyright music in a public space without paying the man

hence the lovely "Happy Birthday" song they play at Chi-Chi's
and the power of Muzak

The RIAA makes a bounty on the fine and lines their pockets
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LadySmith

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #176 on: July 01, 2009, 02:34:14 PM »
Although a better example might be if you made a copy my car and used it. Because then I can use my car at the same time as you are using the copy.

How about this example using intellectual property instead…

You're broke and out on the streets. In despair and because you have nothing better to do, you write about your life and how you got to that point. Someone sees your finished work. He says it's really good and asks for a copy. You don't have one because you don't have any money. He gives you $10. You run off a copy and hand it over.

Wow, you just got $10 for something you created, minus the cost you paid to provide a copy. Over the next few days you start wondering if you could get $10 for another copy, maybe more. You could really use the money, and the prospect gives you something you haven't had in a long time…hope.

So with what you have left of the $10, you run off some copies, stand on the nearest corner and ask passersby if they're interested in buying your work.

Quite a few people stop and gush over your offering, but no, they're not interested in buying it because the guy who paid you $10 has already given them copies that he made, plus he's been giving private readings.
 
So you go back to your cardboard box in the alley with your hopes dashed and potential earnings up in smoke.

No harm, right?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #177 on: July 01, 2009, 02:37:49 PM »
I fail to see your point.

try harder    one thing that will help you see it is leaving home
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #178 on: July 01, 2009, 02:47:00 PM »


Wrong. She downloaded 1700, onto her machine, but the RIAA only tried to prove 24 violations not 1700 violations. There is no proof mentioned any where in the article that she even uploaded one song to another user. Download and upload are two different things. So 1.92 million is for essentially 24 songs, not 1,700.


Quote
  not according to this

"The recording companies accused Thomas-Rasset of offering 1,700 songs on Kazaa as of February 2005, before the company became a legal music subscription service after a settlement with entertainment companies. The music industry tried to prove only 24 exemplary infringements." 


she turned down a chance to settle for between 3-5 k. second glaring example of poor decision making
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Gewehr98

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #179 on: July 01, 2009, 03:31:49 PM »
I cannot believe the sheer idiocy of some in this thread.

To those who would justify piracy/infringement/copyright violation -

Don't ever get published, don't ever sell anything you created, and make it a point to work for free.

Or is it just a case of "It's not illegal until you're caught".

I honestly thought people here knew better...  :rolleyes:

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Brad Johnson

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #180 on: July 01, 2009, 03:59:02 PM »

I honestly thought people here knew better...  :rolleyes:

Nah, they don't, or at least they don't when it comes to something they feel should be free, well... just because!.

People will justify anything when it comes to satifying their sense of moral outrage, especially when it comes to stuff they'd like to have.  It's the "They shouldn't care about a couple of songs because they are making too much money already!" syndrome.

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MechAg94

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #181 on: July 01, 2009, 04:06:35 PM »
Nah, they don't, or at least they don't when it comes to something they feel should be free, well... just because!.

People will justify anything when it comes to satifying their sense of moral outrage, especially when it comes to stuff they'd like to have.  It's the "They shouldn't care about a couple of songs because they are making too much money already!" syndrome.

Brad
I think that is close.  Does taking Bill Gates's car really hurt Bill Gates?  Probably not, but that doesn't mean it isn't theft just like stealing from a poor person.  You have to treat it the same. 
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freakazoid

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #182 on: July 01, 2009, 04:43:08 PM »
Quote
who would have bought it if they were unable to copy it, I've lost some very real money. That is harm.

This is all based on the assumption that if I hadn't downloaded it I would of rushed out and bought the CD. This is complete bs. You are telling me that some of these people who download hundreds and thousands of songs would of rushed out and bought the cd if they hadn't downloaded it? HA. Whether or not the person downloads a song, they aren't buying the cd, so there is no money lost. And then there are the cases of people who still go buy the cd. And I don't know how many times I've actually discovered a band simply because I ended up downloading some of there songs, liking them, and then buying there cd. So no, you are not causing them harm by downloading a song.

Also are you going to tell me that business competition is bad then? Because if I choose one company over another then that company has lost money, causing harm. Or how about knowing how to work on my car? By doing all the work myself I have then cut them out of the picture and now they aren't making money, causing them harm.
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makattak

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #183 on: July 01, 2009, 04:55:06 PM »
This is all based on the assumption that if I hadn't downloaded it I would of rushed out and bought the CD. This is complete bs. You are telling me that some of these people who download hundreds and thousands of songs would of rushed out and bought the cd if they hadn't downloaded it? HA. Whether or not the person downloads a song, they aren't buying the cd, so there is no money lost. And then there are the cases of people who still go buy the cd. And I don't know how many times I've actually discovered a band simply because I ended up downloading some of there songs, liking them, and then buying there cd. So no, you are not causing them harm by downloading a song.

Also are you going to tell me that business competition is bad then? Because if I choose one company over another then that company has lost money, causing harm. Or how about knowing how to work on my car? By doing all the work myself I have then cut them out of the picture and now they aren't making money, causing them harm.

That would be fine if you bought a different CD rather than theirs.

Or if you downloaded public domain music rather than theirs.

There is no harm because you did not steal their intellectual property.

However, you took their intellectual property for your own benefit and gave nothing in return.

In the market, there is an exchange of value. A transaction.

In theft, you simply take something that belongs to someone else. Those songs belong to someone else until you have contracted with them for their use. You never own the songs, but you get to use them for your personal enjoyment.

Otherwise, I'll be going on the road with all these songs that someone else has been kind enough to write for me. After all, they aren't being harmed when I sing their songs better than they do.
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Marnoot

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #184 on: July 01, 2009, 04:59:10 PM »
You are telling me that some of these people who download hundreds and thousands of songs would of rushed out and bought the cd if they hadn't downloaded it? HA.

No, I'm not. I'm saying those people have no right to download non-free music without paying for it. Period. It's not moral, and it's not legal. If you think a song's too expensive, or the license is too restrictive, that does NOT empower you to violate its creator's rights. It empowers you to not purchase it, that's it. Full stop.

If I think a product at the store is too expensive, or has some weird restrictions, guess what? I don't buy it. I go without enjoying having that product. I don't take it and leave the money I think it's really worth on the counter, I don't photocopy books I think are too expensive, I don't download music I haven't paid for.

Racehorse

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #185 on: July 01, 2009, 05:05:17 PM »
This is all based on the assumption that if I hadn't downloaded it I would of rushed out and bought the CD. This is complete bs. You are telling me that some of these people who download hundreds and thousands of songs would of rushed out and bought the cd if they hadn't downloaded it? HA. Whether or not the person downloads a song, they aren't buying the cd, so there is no money lost. And then there are the cases of people who still go buy the cd. And I don't know how many times I've actually discovered a band simply because I ended up downloading some of there songs, liking them, and then buying there cd. So no, you are not causing them harm by downloading a song.

Also are you going to tell me that business competition is bad then? Because if I choose one company over another then that company has lost money, causing harm. Or how about knowing how to work on my car? By doing all the work myself I have then cut them out of the picture and now they aren't making money, causing them harm.

This was the argument I expected and probably the most common argument in favor of IP piracy. If these people or you don't like the music and wouldn't buy it anyway, then why are they/you downloading it in the first place? It's not like it's hard to find a legitimate sample of the music on itunes, or amazon, or the radio, or internet radio, or a myriad of other places to see if you like it. It's really just a convenient rationalization to justify stealing.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #186 on: July 01, 2009, 05:17:42 PM »
some serious entitlement issues here
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Brad Johnson

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #187 on: July 01, 2009, 06:08:00 PM »
some serious entitlement issues here

No kiddin'.  Next think you know they'll be asking for free health care.  Oh, wait...

Brad
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Monkeyleg

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #188 on: July 01, 2009, 06:13:43 PM »
Quote
some serious entitlement issues here

You've got that right. It explains a lot more than free health care. Theft isn't theft if you're taking from a person or company with more money than you.

Balog

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #189 on: July 01, 2009, 06:17:02 PM »
When your argument is that it's not stealing cause it's imaginary....
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #190 on: July 01, 2009, 06:24:07 PM »
Here's a twist:

Let's say there's a band out there... a small cover band.  Aluminica... they cover Metallica tunes.

They record a bunch of songs in their garage on their own studio equipment and put 'em up on BitTorrent and the like.  You can now drive down the road with a DIFFERENT product than the CD that Metallica produced, but sounds similar... Unforgiven, The Memory Remains, King Nothing, and so on.  Guitar solos and vocals are similar, but not quite identical.

Does Metallica have a right to sue listeners to these songs?  The band that made the covers and posted them on BitTorrent?

And... what about Metallica's covers of Whiskey in the Jar, Tuesday's Gone, and Stone Cold Crazy?  How enforceable is their claim on their performances of those covers?  Or... covers of their covers?

Is the recorded performance IP, is the arrangement and song IP, are they both IP, or are they only IP to the original artist?  At what point do Aluminica have IP claims to their work while covering Metallica songs?  And... if Aluminica were selling their MP3 covers online and THAT was put on BitTorrent by a listener, would Aluminica have an IP claim on the file sharers purely for cover tunes?

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MicroBalrog

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #191 on: July 01, 2009, 06:30:14 PM »
AZRedhawk, consider the case of fan-made films like Dominatus or books like Tania Grotter and the Magic Double Bass and The Ring of Darkness.

They are entirely prohibited for republishing within the Western world, though publishing derivative works commercially is often legal in the former USSR (thus the two books above exist).
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Brad Johnson

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #192 on: July 01, 2009, 06:33:01 PM »
Does Metallica have a right to sue listeners to these songs?  

Metallica can sue the band for copyright infringment (up to and including damages in the amount of money made from the sale and distribution of the pilfered material, IIRC).

The people who purchased the music most like won't be held liable if they forfeit the contraband material.  They acted in good faith that the product was properly licensed from the original owner.  They would have to sue the cover band for the monetary loss involved in the purchase.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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Balog

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #193 on: July 01, 2009, 06:43:36 PM »
There are Fair Use exceptions, and I believe parody is also considered exempt. But generally commercial reproduction (not a kid doing a cover and putting it on youtube) is prohibited.
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freakazoid

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #194 on: July 01, 2009, 06:45:11 PM »
Quote
This was the argument I expected and probably the most common argument in favor of IP piracy. If these people or you don't like the music and wouldn't buy it anyway, then why are they/you downloading it in the first place? It's not like it's hard to find a legitimate sample of the music on itunes, or amazon, or the radio, or internet radio, or a myriad of other places to see if you like it. It's really just a convenient rationalization to justify stealing.

I didn't say anything about not liking the music. Some people don't have the money to buy every cd they like.

Quote
Metallica can sue the band for copyright infringment (up to and including damages in the amount of money made from the sale and distribution of the pilfered material, IIRC).

The people who purchased the music most like won't be held liable if they forfeit the contraband material.  They acted in good faith that the product was properly licensed from the original owner.  They would have to sue the cover band for the monetary loss involved in the purchase.

Brad

But bands do do cover songs from other bands, some do nothing bu cover songs. They can be sued for it?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Brad Johnson

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #195 on: July 01, 2009, 06:51:55 PM »
But bands do do cover songs from other bands, some do nothing bu cover songs. They can be sued for it?

If they didn't properly license the material, yes.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #196 on: July 01, 2009, 06:52:34 PM »
Some people don't have the money to buy every cd they like.



suppose you work for me and one week i say "i don't have the money to pay everyone i like and this week i'm not paying you"
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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freakazoid

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #197 on: July 01, 2009, 06:56:31 PM »
Quote
If they didn't properly license the material, yes.

Interesting. So if a small time band just starting up does nothing but cover songs, they could be sued? Did not know that.

Quote
suppose you work for me and one week i say "i don't have the money to pay everyone i like and this week i'm not paying you"

This doesn't relate.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

AZRedhawk44

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #198 on: July 01, 2009, 07:00:30 PM »
Quote
Metallica can sue the band for copyright infringment (up to and including damages in the amount of money made from the sale and distribution of the pilfered material, IIRC).

OK... so if Dave Mustaine with MegaDeth has an ulcerated anus and wants to screw with Metallica, then he can put together a cover band, record every Metallica tune in high quality with good musicianship, and stick it out for free download.  Mustaine and crew would then be only liable for the profit they generated ($0).

Yes?
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freakazoid

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #199 on: July 01, 2009, 07:02:17 PM »
lolz. The perfect crime.  :lol:
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic