Author Topic: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.  (Read 107443 times)

Racehorse

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #200 on: July 01, 2009, 07:12:06 PM »
I didn't say anything about not liking the music. Some people don't have the money to buy every cd they like.
So it's ok to steal things I want because I can't afford them? Time to go jack me an FJ Cruiser. Been wantin' one o' them.

freakazoid

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #201 on: July 01, 2009, 07:17:00 PM »
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So it's ok to steal things I want because I can't afford them? Time to go jack me an FJ Cruiser. Been wantin' one o' them.

Doesn't relate, unless you plan on making a copy of the FJ Cruiser.
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lupinus

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #202 on: July 01, 2009, 07:33:59 PM »
Doesn't relate, unless you plan on making a copy of the FJ Cruiser.
Sure it does.

There is a difference between buying something and then doing with it as you please, provided you don't distribute it or copy and make money off of it, and taking something for free because you feel you have a right to it but can't afford it.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Balog

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #203 on: July 01, 2009, 07:44:28 PM »
Sure it does.

There is a difference between buying something and then doing with it as you please, provided you don't distribute it or copy and make money off of it, and taking something for free because you feel you have a right to it but can't afford it.

Yup. Which is the point some of us have been making for 9 pages now.

I used to argue a lot of the same things as people on this thread. In retrospect, I realize the true basis of my argument was I wanted free music/movies.
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lupinus

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #204 on: July 01, 2009, 07:45:45 PM »
Yup. Which is the point some of us have been making for 9 pages now.

I used to argue a lot of the same things as people on this thread. In retrospect, I realize the true basis of my argument was I wanted free music/movies.
Yep, thats what porn is for  =D
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Strings

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #205 on: July 01, 2009, 08:14:48 PM »
Actually, the "Aluminica" argument has been kinda hashed out before...

There used to be a site for guitar tabs, that had many user-generated tabs of popular pieces. They got slapped with a "cease & desist" order on much of them, because of IP infringement.

IP is a very sticky problem. Groups like RIAA just muddy the waters...
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freakazoid

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #206 on: July 01, 2009, 08:32:22 PM »
There are a lot of guitar tab sites, just type it into google. Like this one for example, http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/
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zahc

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #207 on: July 01, 2009, 09:05:46 PM »
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The artists should be able to decide how they make their money.

No. They should be able to TRY to make money however they want, but they shouldn't just get to decide what is going to work. If selling CDs no longer works because the internet has made digital media sharing ubiquitous, then it's time to try making money doing something else besides selling CDs.

Nobody else gets to decide how they make their money. They make their money in the best way they can, market forces and changing perceptions and volatile prices and disruptive technology and seasonal changes and all. My dad lost his trucking business last year when the price of oil spiked and he couldn't afford to run in the red. He went into something else, cause that's the only thing to do in a situation like that. The way people talk around here, when the market was saying it costs $900 to fill up a big rig and my dad was used to only paying $450, the government should have put price controls on the price of fuel so that he could operate like he had been doing for 20 years. People should have been forced to sell fuel for less, because it wasn't fair to my dad. Back home, we have a word for thinking like that--"bullshit".

I don't just get to decide that I make my money by selling common flowers on the street corner at $400 each, when flowers are in abundance everywhere and anyone can grow their own. I am welcome to try, but I don't just get to decide how I make my money and if it doesn't work out, go crying to mama government to make the bad people give me their money like I want them to. In my moral system, you have to offer the customer something that he values and entice him to pay you in exchange for it. Whatever he will pay you for it is what it is worth. It is not worth what you say it is, and if people don't pay it, they are 'stealing' from you.


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Although a better example might be if you made a copy my car and used it. Because then I can use my car at the same time as you are using the copy.

If fancy cars were infinitely identically copyable, the first thing any smart person would do is buy one $45,000 car, copy the *expletive deleted*it out of it, and sell the copies for $100 each. In some bizarre moral system, this is wrong, but in mine, it's called good business. Lots of people get cheap cars and I make money. If cars were infinitely identically copyable, that would be AMAZING. Having an abundance of awesome cars at a low price sounds awesome to me, it sounds like real progress, like something out of an optimistic '50s vision of 1995. Fancy cars everywhere for the price of a sandwich! Now, I'm eventually going to get undercut by my own $100 copies, and so on even lower until the price of cars drops to the price of providing a space to park it.  It's a race to the bottom. You know what? It looks like selling infinitely identically copyable items isn't a sustainable business model, much the way selling wilted flowers for $400 isn't. In such a situation, it would seem smart to invest in oil stocks and tire companies, not sit around and whine about how back in the good old days we had to make cars by hand one at a time and they cost $45,000 each and only the rich could afford them.

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If an artist chooses to distribute their music for free as ads for concerts and merchandise, that's their choice. But if they choose not to embrace that model, you have no right to violate their rights by using their IP w/o compensation.then they'd better not quit their day job, because there's this new thing called the internet, and the market has shown that it does not value copies of digital files, and all copyright law is is a tariff to prop up the price of a good that they want to make more money on, and as long as the good is overpriced people are going to continue avoiding the tariff like any other tariff, and in my opinion, ignoring such BS price controls is perfectly moral

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some serious entitlement issues here
I agree that some people think they are entitled to things when it actually amounts to stealing. But other entitlement issues arise when people think it's ok for the government to help them inflate the price of their difficult-to-market goods and services by threatening their customers with violence and bankruptcy.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 09:09:39 PM by zahc »
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #208 on: July 01, 2009, 09:50:21 PM »
So basically what you're saying is that because it's easy to get music for free (illegally), the free theft price should set the market value of the product. 

That's the most perverse rationalization for theft I think I've heard yet.

I oughta go to best buy tomorrow and demand that they give me a free ipod and cell phone.  I'll just tell 'em that I could steal those things and therefore their real value is actually zero, so just give 'em up.

I think you should dust off that "bullshit" word from back home.

tyme

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #209 on: July 01, 2009, 10:16:04 PM »
I don't think so, Headless.  The argument doesn't start from "it's easy to get for free" and progress to "it should be legal to get it for free".  Rather, the argument begins with the proposition that there's no moral prohibition on copying intangible items.  Nor is there any net utility from protecting the works that are most vigorously protected under copyright today.  The fact that IP is easy to get for free is irrelevant.  Lots of small goods are easy to shoplift (for free) but should not be priced at 0.  I'm sure zahc is against shoplifting.

Quote from: Constitution
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

Notably different from the language of the 2nd amendment, it is clear that securing IP for limited times is only a means to achieve an objective, that being promoting the progress of science and useful arts.

Strangely, I see no serious discussion in this thread about how copyright as it exists today is designed to further that goal.  A Brittany Spears album does not fall under the umbrella of science or useful arts.  Music, along with photographs, is performance art or fine art.  They have sneaked under the copyright umbrella over the years, but without constitutional authorization that I can see.

I also wonder what benefits society could obtain by eliminating all civil laws against redistributing content for free.  Just like simplifying the tax code, trimming copyright to protect only against for-profit redistribution (for a limited time, not this lifetime+x years nonsense) would free up a lot of brainpower for other things.

Trent Reznor said it best.  "It's not really up to me to give you free music.  It's free anyway.  For anybody that wants to admit it, pretty much any piece of music... is free on the internet anyway."  Excessive moralizing will not change that.  Technology has radically changed how a lot of people view intellectual property, and copyright apologists do not have a monopoly on what is morally right.

The pragmatic creator of IP will simply find ways of making money.  Performances.  Licensing for commercial use.  Consulting or support contracts.  Selling IP is still an option because many consumers will pay for music, movies, and other IP, even when there's an opportunity to get them for free.  The real world and human psychology does not create a perfectly efficient market where goods have to be uniformly priced.  As a personal example, I've bought several TV shows on DVD after downloading them first.  Hulu is great, but the content is limited.

Finally, regardless of opinions for or against any sort of protection of intellectual property, current copyright terms are a blatant abuse of government authority.  The change from 14+14 years (initial+renewal) in 1790 to lifetime+70 years is absurd. (graph of copyright terms)


At the beginning of the history of copyright, it was publishers that created the fiction of IP-as-property. They knew they could leverage their oligopoly on printing presses to coerce content creators to transfer copyright to them (the printers).  The fact that you or I or anyone else might find copyright protection useful as a means to make money doesn't have anything to do with the validity of the concept.  I would also find it useful for the government to pay me for doing nothing, but that doesn't mean it's a good policy.

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roo_ster

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #210 on: July 01, 2009, 11:30:55 PM »
Hmm, if the COTUS means what it says, tyme has a strong point WRT the not-so-useful arts.

Perhaps we have just become accustomed to gov't exercising the power to grant these privileges to particular folks, the same way we are accustomed to the way gov't has granted certain privileges to notional entities like corporations?

I'll have to think on that a bit.

Sneaky, sneaky tyme, playing the COTUS card...
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #211 on: July 01, 2009, 11:31:15 PM »
I don't think so, Headless.  The argument doesn't start from "it's easy to get for free" and progress to "it should be legal to get it for free".  Rather, the argument begins with the proposition that there's no moral prohibition on copying intangible items.  Nor is there any net utility from protecting the works that are most vigorously protected under copyright today.  The fact that IP is easy to get for free is irrelevant.  Lots of small goods are easy to shoplift (for free) but should not be priced at 0.  I'm sure zahc is against shoplifting.
If zahc was against shoplifting, then he wouldn't steal music, because they are basically the same thing.  Filching tangible property is morally the same as filching intangible property.

When you buy a CD or iTunes file, you aren't paying hard money for a shiny disc or any old random string of bytes, you're paying for the ability to play a certain piece of music.  If this wasn't the case, then any CD would be as good as any other, it wouldn't matter to the purchasers which CD they got, nor which music it contained, nor whether it contained any music at all.  And any random collection of bytes would be as good as any other, or none at all. 

Clearly the music contained on the CD or encoded in the mp3 file has value in itself.  Even the music thieves recognize this fact by virtue of stealing the music.  If the music wasn't valuable, they wouldn't steal it.  They'd be just as content with any old blank CD or any random string of bytes, but they aren't, they want the CD or byte stream that contains good, valuable music.

So, is it right and just to take someone else's valuable property and use it without their consent?  Not if you believe that theft is wrong.

Strangely, I see no serious discussion in this thread about how copyright as it exists today is designed to further that goal.  A Brittany Spears album does not fall under the umbrella of science or useful arts.  Music, along with photographs, is performance art or fine art.  They have sneaked under the copyright umbrella over the years, but without constitutional authorization that I can see.

It's a long stretch to say that photography and music recordings aren't useful arts.  The fact that music and photographs have commercial value indicates that they are useful in some capacity.  The obvious usefulness is in providing personal entertainment, and this particular use is in high demand as evidenced by the great many people willing to steal it and the great sums of money to bicker over.

Likewise, you're struggling to claim that the authors of music or photographs or movies shouldn't receive the exclusive right to their writings.  Do you agree that there is very little reason for someone to invest time, money, and personal labor into producing intellectual property of any sort if he doesn't have the legal and practical ability to sell that property once he creates it?  Do we really need to have a discussion of why property rights are fundamental to advancing the production of valuable property? 

The best way to promote these useful arts it to allow authors to profit from their writings.

Now, the question becomes just what is meant by "for limited Times".  No specific time is quantified, therefore, as long as the particular timespan we use is reasonable there's no way to claim that we're violating the constitution. 

So just how long is reasonable?  Seems to me that so long as a particular writing retains commercial value, and so long as the owner is putting it to productive use, then it should belong to the owner.  Back when people usually only lived 40 odd years a 14+14 year span was sufficient to ensure that the writing was secure for the entire career of the author.  Unless he made his invention before reaching adulthood, he had a reasonable expectation of being able to profit form his work until he died.  Now that authors are living longer, and especially now that long-lived corporations are authors and owners, it makes good sense to extend the timespan much farther out.  100 years doesn't seem unreasonable, given that many products created and owned by corporations are still in primary use (Mickey Mouse is a prime example). 

Not only must authors be able to profit from their works, their profits must be secure for a sufficient timespan to justify the labors involved in producing the writings.  Given the increasingly extreme amounts of time and money invested into the production of music and especially movies these days, it seems entirely sensible that their authors be able to profit from them for an increasingly long amount of time.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 11:51:06 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Monkeyleg

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #212 on: July 01, 2009, 11:39:50 PM »
I'd be extremely curious to know which participants on this thread have a vested interest in copyright law, and which participants do not. I've already stated that I do, so my views are not entirely objective.

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #213 on: July 01, 2009, 11:50:19 PM »
I'd be extremely curious to know which participants on this thread have a vested interest in copyright law, and which participants do not. I've already stated that I do, so my views are not entirely objective.

I've published a few things, but it was a drop in the bucket, income-wise, and one of the first pastimes that got tossed after kids came on the scene.
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Nick1911

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #214 on: July 01, 2009, 11:51:15 PM »
I'd be extremely curious to know which participants on this thread have a vested interest in copyright law, and which participants do not. I've already stated that I do, so my views are not entirely objective.

As do I, though often indirectly.  My primary job is writing code for a company whom sells it commercially.  I spend all day making IP.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #215 on: July 01, 2009, 11:53:35 PM »
I'd be extremely curious to know which participants on this thread have a vested interest in copyright law, and which participants do not. I've already stated that I do, so my views are not entirely objective.
As an engineer who spends all day creating and using IP, I have a great deal of time and money riding on patent law.  A specific concept/design we're developing now could prove to be incredibly lucrative for us, assuming that we as the authors/owners are the ones who profit from it.

I've not much riding on copyright law specifically, but I don't see much difference between patent and copyright law, at least in terms of morality.

zahc

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #216 on: July 02, 2009, 12:01:35 AM »
Quote
If zahc was against shoplifting, then he wouldn't steal music, because they are basically the same thing. Filching tangible property is morally the same as filching intangible property.

So that we can understand each other, define "filching intagible property". Is listening to the radio stealing music? Is singing a song your heard on the radio stealing music? Is singing a song you heard on the radio to an audience stealing music? How big of an audience does it have to be before it becomes stealing music? Is listening to your friend's legally-downloaded songs on his iPod stealing music? Is copying them to your iPod and listening to them on your iPod stealing music? Is listening to music a record store stealing music? Is recording a radio broadcast stealing music? Is my making mp3 recordings of my vinyl records stealing music? If not why is copying said mp3s from my friends, saving myself the trouble of recording, stealing music?

Your answer will be that it's stealing music when the law says it is. I'm not a copyright lawyer and since copyright law makes no sense I don't even KNOW what is legal or not. I don't think anybody does, either.


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tyme

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #217 on: July 02, 2009, 01:03:48 AM »
Quote from: Headless Gunner Thompson
It's a long stretch to say that photography and music recordings aren't useful arts.  The fact that music and photographs have commercial value indicates that they are useful in some capacity.

"Useful arts" is one of those archaic terms that has specific meaning contrary to what you might think.  Like "well regulated".

Quote
I've not much riding on copyright law specifically, but I don't see much difference between patent and copyright law, at least in terms of morality.

IP that's patentable falls under the "useful arts" term, so whatever else I might think about patents, they are constitutional.

I think it's common knowledge that patent law as it relates to software methods and business methods is a mess.  When you have shell companies ("patent trolls") buying up patents to form a portfolio that they can use to sue random companies and negotiate settlements, something is horribly wrong with the determination of what is and isn't patentable.  Ridiculous patents like Amazon's one-click patent (now partially invalidated, but there's an ongoing review) show just how inept the patent office is.  You can patent anything if you couch it in the right language.

Quote from: Headless Gunner Thompson
Likewise, you're struggling to claim that the authors of music or photographs or movies shouldn't receive the exclusive right to their writings.  Do you agree that there is very little reason for someone to invest time, money, and personal labor into producing intellectual property of any sort if he doesn't have the legal and practical ability to sell that property once he creates it?  Do we really need to have a discussion of why property rights are fundamental to advancing the production of valuable property?

I'm pretty sure the end of big-budget Hollywood movies would not lead to the downfall of western civilization.  Plenty of people see movies at the theaters without being compelled to go, just as plenty of people buy DVDs even though they are available for free on the internet.  Strong copyright laws are not a requirement for someone to sell their IP.

I'd also like to repeat that plenty of people including me buy music, movies, and TV (and books for that matter) which they could have (or did originally) get for free.

I do not share your firm belief that copying intangible IP without permission represents theft, or that intangible IP is the creator's exclusive property.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 01:19:07 AM by tyme »
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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #218 on: July 02, 2009, 01:26:34 AM »
If I find a recipe online on how to make Oreos--not just imitations, but OMG-these-are-real-honest-to-God-Oreos with the same creme filling and everything--, and then hand out my Oreos to my friends along with the recipe, would that be a comparable analogy?
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Gewehr98

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #219 on: July 02, 2009, 01:40:11 AM »
Quote
I'd be extremely curious to know which participants on this thread have a vested interest in copyright law, and which participants do not. I've already stated that I do, so my views are not entirely objective.

I do.

Both for a patent or two pending, and works published. 

I've threatened legal action on more than one occasion to keep my work out of venues that didn't request my permission for use.

Lucky for them, they ceased and desisted.

Reading some on here, I'd have to say if they had things their way, there'd be absolutely no incentive for hard-working people to create stuff like music, art, photos, movies, videos, blueprints, working papers, doctoral theses, dissertations, or any other form of Intellectual Property.  Why should they, when they can be stolen by folks who feel entitled to blatantly steal them?

Grrrr...  :mad:
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 01:44:00 AM by Gewehr98 »
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tyme

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What is property
« Reply #220 on: July 02, 2009, 01:46:49 AM »
What is the reason for considering information to be property?

It's logically inconceivable that any raw physical materials could ever belong to any person or company in particular, so the entire chain of production ending in finished physical products is tainted by unowned materials.

However, society adopts the fiction of ownership and private property as a means to enable markets.  Whoever happens to be sitting on property that houses useful raw materials just got lucky.  Ignoring that arbitrary initial allocation of raw materials, the rest works out pretty well: Markets do a reasonable job of allocating limited resources in an efficient manner, most of the time.

There are no limited resources involved in the production of IP.  Whether someone produces IP or sleeps 24/7 makes no difference in terms of decreasing what's available to others.  In fact, an IP producer increases the total amount of available IP resources available for everyone else.

Since there are no resource limitations involved, there is no need to create a legally-enforced market for IP.  Since no market needs to be created, there's no reason to consider IP to be "property".

Therefore, I think that any rationale for protecting IP cannot rely on analogies to physical products or property.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 01:50:59 AM by tyme »
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #221 on: July 02, 2009, 08:45:13 AM »
"Useful arts" is one of those archaic terms that has specific meaning contrary to what you might think.  Like "well regulated".
I am familiar with the meaning of "useful arts".  That's why I think that the current crop of commercial artists fall under that umbrella.  Brittney Spears and Metalica and the like are not pure artists pursuing an aesthetic.  They do not produce fine art.  They produce a commercial product in the pursuit of profit.  They're the skilled tradesmen that create the entertainment products we all like to consume so much.  They produce their products by the skill of their physical actions (skillfully manipulating their bodies to produce the desired music, as opposed to exercising their intellects).

If they were artists pursuing the art, then they wouldn't fight so hard to stifle internet redistribution, they'd welcome it.  And they wouldn't need to involve the recording industry, or the accountants, lawyers, politicians, etc just to protect their financial interests.


I'm pretty sure the end of big-budget Hollywood movies would not lead to the downfall of western civilization.  Plenty of people see movies at the theaters without being compelled to go, just as plenty of people buy DVDs even though they are available for free on the internet.  Strong copyright laws are not a requirement for someone to sell their IP. 
I'm pretty sure that if zahc stole you house and car it wouldn't lead to the downfall of western civilization.  Does that mean we should let him do it?

Hypothetically speaking, if you knew it was likely that your house or car would be stolen, and that you'd have no recourse when it happened, you'd be a lot less likely to invest your time, efforts, and money into them, wouldn't you?  You'd probably not invest anything into acquiring, maintaining, or improving them.

Why do you think that intellectual property is so different?

Some people do buy music and movies legally.  That's no excuse for allowing other people to obtain them them illegally and immorally.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 02:48:17 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What is property
« Reply #222 on: July 02, 2009, 08:54:46 AM »
What is the reason for considering information to be property?
Because someone had to invest his own time and efforts to produce the information.

If the particular piece of information was universal, or obvious, or open to all without effort, then there's be no reason to treat it as property.  But since information is produced by human labor and not just naturally occurring , then it by rights ought to belong to the person/people who produced it.
It's logically inconceivable that any raw physical materials could ever belong to any person or company in particular, so the entire chain of production ending in finished physical products is tainted by unowned materials.

However, society adopts the fiction of ownership and private property as a means to enable markets.  Whoever happens to be sitting on property that houses useful raw materials just got lucky.  Ignoring that arbitrary initial allocation of raw materials, the rest works out pretty well: Markets do a reasonable job of allocating limited resources in an efficient manner, most of the time.

Hogwash.  Natural resources don't obtain themselves and present themselves for our use all on their own.  They have to be acquired by human efforts (for instance, metals and ores are obtained by the people who mine them).  It is no fiction to say that the people who invest their time, money, and efforts into producing natural resources for use should be their owners.  It's civilized wisdom, born of centuries of human experience and philosphy and societal development.

Look, do we really have to go back to the basic concepts of property rights for you all to understand how stealing property is wrong?  I would like to think that everyone on a libertarian-leaning, critical thinking type gun board would understand that being deprived of our labors is fundamentally, morally, reprehensibly wrong.  So long as our time span on this planet is finite, then denying anyone the fruits of their labor amounts to denying them some of their life.  The very idea should be repugnant to anyone with a conscience.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 12:17:36 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

makattak

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Re: What is property
« Reply #223 on: July 02, 2009, 09:00:04 AM »
What is the reason for considering information to be property?

It's logically inconceivable that any raw physical materials could ever belong to any person or company in particular, so the entire chain of production ending in finished physical products is tainted by unowned materials.

However, society adopts the fiction of ownership and private property as a means to enable markets.  Whoever happens to be sitting on property that houses useful raw materials just got lucky.  Ignoring that arbitrary initial allocation of raw materials, the rest works out pretty well: Markets do a reasonable job of allocating limited resources in an efficient manner, most of the time.

There are no limited resources involved in the production of IP.  Whether someone produces IP or sleeps 24/7 makes no difference in terms of decreasing what's available to others.  In fact, an IP producer increases the total amount of available IP resources available for everyone else.

Since there are no resource limitations involved, there is no need to create a legally-enforced market for IP.  Since no market needs to be created, there's no reason to consider IP to be "property".

Therefore, I think that any rationale for protecting IP cannot rely on analogies to physical products or property.

The need for markets is not solely based on the need to allocate scarce resources. (I curse every economist who has tried to define economics in such a way).

Markets are necessary because they are the best means for regulating human action and interaction.

The most valuable thing someone can add to the market is capital. UNLIKE scarce resources, information is a non-zero sum game. If I have it, everyone else can have it too.

However, if I discover the means to prolong life for 200 years, why would I EVER share that knowledge?

I will point you to Adam Smith:

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our necessities but of their advantages.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MechAg94

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Re: RIAA Hates you and wants to bankrupt you.
« Reply #224 on: July 02, 2009, 10:49:47 AM »
I agree.  If someone had a new idea that they knew they could put in lots of hours outside of their normal job and turn it into something useful, do you really think they are going to want to do that just so someone like you can just steal their idea?  If they are going to put in the time, they get to set the price.  Your only decision is whether or not you want to pay that price or not.  You don't get to decide whether or not you get to steal the idea or not. 

The same holds true for a song or a poem or other intellectual work.  The owner gets to decide the selling price and the conditions of sale.  Your only choice is if you want to meet his demands or not.  Take it or leave it.  Stealing it because you don't like the price or conditions is not an option.  If you do so, don't whine if you get sued because of it. 

IMO, the same holds true for a merchant selling apples.  If he is the only guy in town who has apples to sell, you don't get to tell him his price is too high.  He sets the price and you only get to decide how bad you want an apple.  If the market forcing him to drop his price, then it does.  You don't get to steal an apple.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge