Author Topic: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism  (Read 594 times)

Perd Hapley

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Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« on: March 06, 2023, 04:33:03 PM »
I recall hearing the phrase “fully-automated, luxury communism” a few years ago, but I thought it was just a sarcastic description of post-modern, left-wing utopianism. I had no idea people were using it unironically, or that it is the title of a book.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/give-us-fully-automated-luxury-communism/592099/

https://www.anarchistcommunism.org/2020/04/06/what-is-fully-automated-luxury-communism/

The gist is that mankind is on the verge of a new era, where work is unnecessary, and scarcity is banished by abundance of everything everyone needs, everywhere.

What I find amusing about the whole idea (besides the notion that solar energy will solve our problems) is that the book was published just one year before the Chinese virus taught comfy first-worlders just how scarce abundance really is. Back to the drawing board, suckas!

Maybe that’s why I haven’t heard the term lately.
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zahc

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2023, 05:36:01 PM »
Modern technology should have already ushered in this era. But it didn't happen then and it won't happen next time, because human nature remains.

Even if gold fell from the sky, you'd still have to run as fast as everyone else to catch enough.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2023, 05:57:16 PM »
Even if the commie hipsters are right that fully automated gay space luxury communism is possible, you'd just have governments ruining it by taxing the robots, or replicators, or whatever.

https://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-sanders-government-should-tax-the-robots-that-replace-workers-2023-2
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Ben

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2023, 05:59:28 PM »
Even if the commie hipsters are right that fully automated gay space luxury communism is possible, you'd just have governments ruining it by taxing the robots, or replicators, or whatever.

https://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-sanders-government-should-tax-the-robots-that-replace-workers-2023-2

In the future they have replicators and everybody still uses latinum.
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MillCreek

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2023, 06:28:22 PM »
^^^I was just coming to say the last time I saw fully automated luxury communism was on Star Trek.
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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2023, 07:46:24 AM »
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

HankB

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2023, 08:36:29 AM »
In the future they have replicators and everybody still uses latinum.
They explained that by saying latinum can't be replicated because of (insert some meaningless Trekkie technobabble.) So they still have some form of "hard currency" for trade between species.
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MechAg94

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2023, 09:01:49 AM »
Modern technology should have already ushered in this era. But it didn't happen then and it won't happen next time, because human nature remains.

Even if gold fell from the sky, you'd still have to run as fast as everyone else to catch enough.
I don't think "modern technology" will ever usher in anything of the kind.  My first impression without reading any links is this is first worlders who have no idea just how much work is done by a large number of people to get the food and luxury goods to their local store.  They want something for nothing. 

I work at a chemical plant.  Everything is automated as much as economically possible.  Actual human operators still need to monitor and take control here and there.  Actual technicians need to troubleshoot problems and make repairs.  We have to bring in human contractors to overhaul compressors and inspect equipment.  IMO, the only way something like that happens is if we get to magic replicators which probably won't happen.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 11:43:09 AM by MechAg94 »
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Boomhauer

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2023, 09:03:58 AM »
Commie pipe dream for city dwellers.

The unspoken part is the nasty blue collar uneducated flyover deplorables will be our slaves.

My wife has a full on communist cousin who thinks the work week ought to be 15 hours long maximum. As in she believes that you should get paid what you get paid for a full week to only work five hours a day for three days and then have four days off.

She works in marketing for AT&T and gets paid twice what I get paid and has no *expletive deleted*ing clue about how much work it takes to make her high rise big city life happen.
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MechAg94

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2023, 09:22:49 AM »
Ok, I browsed through the anarchocommunist link.  Utter BS.  The author calls out all sort of things that need to happen, but has no idea what it will take to make them happen or keep up that infrastructure. 

New communism the same as the old communism.  A few people want to live in luxury while a bunch of poor workers break their backs making it happen all while being promised that they will eventually live in luxury also.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 10:26:57 AM by MechAg94 »
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HankB

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2023, 10:59:33 AM »
Commie pipe dream for city dwellers.

The unspoken part is the nasty blue collar uneducated flyover deplorables will be our slaves.

My wife has a full on communist cousin who thinks the work week ought to be 15 hours long maximum. As in she believes that you should get paid what you get paid for a full week to only work five hours a day for three days and then have four days off.

She works in marketing for AT&T and gets paid twice what I get paid and has no *expletive deleted*ing clue about how much work it takes to make her high rise big city life happen.
H.G. Wells addressed this mindset in his novel, The Time Machine. The nasty blue collar workers became the Morlocks - the word has its origin in the Victorian term "workers in the fiery belly of Moloch" meaning the hard working people in the mills and factories. The Eloi were basically useless and lazy, did no useful work, and were fit only to be eaten by the Morlocks. (The movies strayed more than a bit from Wells' vision.)
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2023, 11:15:01 AM »
There are a lot of folks around here still getting all their stuff delivered... They have accepted that their McMeal is going to cost $20 instead of $10... And they want everyone else to HAVE to make the same "choice."
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MechAg94

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2023, 11:44:19 AM »
H.G. Wells addressed this mindset in his novel, The Time Machine. The nasty blue collar workers became the Morlocks - the word has its origin in the Victorian term "workers in the fiery belly of Moloch" meaning the hard working people in the mills and factories. The Eloi were basically useless and lazy, did no useful work, and were fit only to be eaten by the Morlocks. (The movies strayed more than a bit from Wells' vision.)
I don't think I have read the book.  I will have to get a copy.
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MechAg94

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2023, 11:46:41 AM »
One thing I noticed is that the author on the anarchocommunist link talked about renewable energy like it was already here and free or something.  Also talked about encouraging small businesses at one point when commy/leftist policies never favor small businesses. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 12:17:26 PM by MechAg94 »
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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2023, 11:50:39 AM »
commy/leftist policies never favor small businesses.

A few big companies are easier to control and funnel money from than a bunch of smaller ones.
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HankB

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2023, 12:16:15 PM »
A few big companies are easier to control and funnel money from than a bunch of smaller ones.
Huge collective farms are more easily managed than smaller privately owned properties owned by kulaks. And we know how communist leaders (e.g., Stalin) treated them.

Unsurprisingly, productivity plummeted after collectivization. When after several decades of low harvests workers were "permitted" small plots of their own, the productivity per acre on those small plots FAR outstripped the collective as a whole.

But of course, things didn't work out because it just wasn't the right people in charge.   :facepalm:
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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Nick1911

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2023, 12:16:23 PM »
Socialists view small businesses competing with one another in the same market as inefficient.  In their view it is better to have one company providing a product/service.

It's not entirely invalid, but without profit motive and competitive pressure, there's no incentive to improve and innovate.  This was seen in many soviet products which lagged far behind their western counterparts in design and construction.

MechAg94

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2023, 12:21:02 PM »
Socialists view small businesses competing with one another in the same market as inefficient.  In their view it is better to have one company providing a product/service.

It's not entirely invalid, but without profit motive and competitive pressure, there's no incentive to improve and innovate.  This was seen in many soviet products which lagged far behind their western counterparts in design and construction.
IMO, it is completely invalid.  For those reasons along with others.  Inefficient and incompetent small businesses go out of business or at least don't do as well.  Inefficient and incompetent managers in a big company get promoted. 
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zahc

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2023, 12:22:57 PM »
One thing I noticed is that the author on the anarchocommunist link talked about renewable energy like it was already here and free or something.  Also talked about encouraging small businesses at one point when commy/leftist policies never favor small businesses.

Citation needed? It all depends on the regime I would think.

It's difficult to make the argument that capitalism favors small business.

The agricultural case above is particularly curious because farming has massive economies of scale and has always been top-heavy and only continues to trend that way despite US having an actual agricultural policy (remarkable because in the US it it rare to have any industrial policy whatsoever) propping up small farms. This policy is inherently socialist in nature, under pure capitalism the sector would undergo increasing consolidation I think. I think the arguments that socialism is anti small business is wrong. Capitalism is anti small business where small business is inefficient. Command economies do what they think is best, sometimes efficiently and sometimes not. And if you look at modern blended economies who aren't afraid to put their fingers on the scales, some of them are very small business friendly, with small shops everywhere to an extent you don't see in the US. In the US, the bakery gets bought out to put in a McDonald's, the brewery gets bought out by InBev so they can brew it 2 states over in the megabrewery, the local radio station and newspaper get bought out by clear channel and the regional leftyrag, and your local doctor is forced to join the big hospital complex. This is practically the story of the postwar neo liberal economy, a result of specific policies that are ostensibly capitalistic, and, it's hard to imagine you haven't noticed, and these things have not happened in all places. It's only the younger "eat local" crowd who are starting to decide this sucks and want to do things more like the way their grandparents generation did them as a matter of course. Except it's very hard because the businesses are all gone and the infrastructure that supported it also.

Now, if you are like me, and willing to be a true neoliberal apostate, you make the correct interpretation that the US ALSO has its fingers on the scales, but those fingers value wall street and megabusiness above all else. We are not living in an anarcho capitalist economy but one built by specific postwar economic policies. If the policies were different, we would be no more or less free but might have drastically different and better outcomes. Unfortunately, those who propose changing those policies are often branded "libs" despite the fact that the policies are often bad, wheres conservativism is weaponized by convincing the conservatives that the policy was handed down by Jesus from mount Sinai, even when that's obviously not true under the briefest introspection. And thus our system continues to roll along and morph in directions that favor those who can afford to buy influence in Washington.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 12:48:12 PM by zahc »
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Ben

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2023, 01:37:16 PM »
Huge collective farms are more easily managed than smaller privately owned properties owned by kulaks. And we know how communist leaders (e.g., Stalin) treated them.

Unsurprisingly, productivity plummeted after collectivization. When after several decades of low harvests workers were "permitted" small plots of their own, the productivity per acre on those small plots FAR outstripped the collective as a whole.

But of course, things didn't work out because it just wasn't the right people in charge.   :facepalm:

I highly recommend  reading Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. It covers the Soviet collective farms and all the snitches there doing anything but "collectivism" as well as all the other ugly parts of communism (not that there are any nice parts).
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MechAg94

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2023, 03:13:36 PM »
Citation needed? It all depends on the regime I would think.

It's difficult to make the argument that capitalism favors small business.

The agricultural case above is particularly curious because farming has massive economies of scale and has always been top-heavy and only continues to trend that way despite US having an actual agricultural policy (remarkable because in the US it it rare to have any industrial policy whatsoever) propping up small farms. This policy is inherently socialist in nature, under pure capitalism the sector would undergo increasing consolidation I think. I think the arguments that socialism is anti small business is wrong. Capitalism is anti small business where small business is inefficient. Command economies do what they think is best, sometimes efficiently and sometimes not. And if you look at modern blended economies who aren't afraid to put their fingers on the scales, some of them are very small business friendly, with small shops everywhere to an extent you don't see in the US. In the US, the bakery gets bought out to put in a McDonald's, the brewery gets bought out by InBev so they can brew it 2 states over in the megabrewery, the local radio station and newspaper get bought out by clear channel and the regional leftyrag, and your local doctor is forced to join the big hospital complex. This is practically the story of the postwar neo liberal economy, a result of specific policies that are ostensibly capitalistic, and, it's hard to imagine you haven't noticed, and these things have not happened in all places. It's only the younger "eat local" crowd who are starting to decide this sucks and want to do things more like the way their grandparents generation did them as a matter of course. Except it's very hard because the businesses are all gone and the infrastructure that supported it also.

Now, if you are like me, and willing to be a true neoliberal apostate, you make the correct interpretation that the US ALSO has its fingers on the scales, but those fingers value wall street and megabusiness above all else. We are not living in an anarcho capitalist economy but one built by specific postwar economic policies. If the policies were different, we would be no more or less free but might have drastically different and better outcomes. Unfortunately, those who propose changing those policies are often branded "libs" despite the fact that the policies are often bad, wheres conservativism is weaponized by convincing the conservatives that the policy was handed down by Jesus from mount Sinai, even when that's obviously not true under the briefest introspection. And thus our system continues to roll along and morph in directions that favor those who can afford to buy influence in Washington.
I said leftist policies favor big businesses.  It isn't that leftists do it deliberately.  It is just the net effect of everything they favor because they rarely give a damn about consequences.  More regulation, more road blocks/red tape, more taxes (with tax loopholes), more lobbying and bribery.  All those things favor bigger businesses who can afford more lawyers and CPA's and afford lobbyists, etc.  We saw it during the COVID lock downs.  Whether capitalism itself favors big or small businesses, that is another question.  How many times have we seen big businesses only survive due to govt contracts or bail outs? 
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lee n. field

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2023, 04:23:50 PM »
I don't think I have read the book.  I will have to get a copy.

Surprising.  It's one of the really basic modern science fiction novels.
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zahc

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2023, 04:29:35 PM »
I said leftist policies favor big businesses.  It isn't that leftists do it deliberately.  It is just the net effect of everything they favor because they rarely give a damn about consequences.  More regulation, more road blocks/red tape, more taxes (with tax loopholes), more lobbying and bribery.  All those things favor bigger businesses who can afford more lawyers and CPA's and afford lobbyists, etc.  We saw it during the COVID lock downs.  Whether capitalism itself favors big or small businesses, that is another question.  How many times have we seen big businesses only survive due to govt contracts or bail outs?

I can fully agree with this. There is always a difference between stated policy goal, revealed policy goal, and actual policy outcome. It is 100% true that certain political forces promulgate policies with stated goal X but actual goal Y and the end result is outcome Z. Racial politics would be a great example. All parties are taking advantage of their bases and I struggle to make a call which base is stupider. The important thing for tptb is that individuals do not join forces by realizing their common ground, and this explains most political division and alignment. Otherwise you can't explain the basically random "platforms" of the parties, but it is easy to understand the platforms are sliced and diced to make sure there is no bloc of individuals too large.

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MechAg94

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Re: Fully-Automated Luxury Communism
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2023, 05:35:49 PM »
Surprising.  It's one of the really basic modern science fiction novels.
I have been working on getting hard copies of some of the classics over the years.  I have a Jules Verne set.  Need to look for that one.
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