PO'd girls threaten rape victim for turning in her attackers

[vaskidmark]

http://www.jammiewf.com/2013/two-girls-arrested-for-threatening-ohio-rape-victim/

Apparently this was not merely a spate of name calling and insulting.  It seems to be what the cops call "credible threats to kill her".

Rhetorical question - what are 15-year olds coming to?

Additional rhetorical question - what kind of parenting did they receive?

Unfortunately, the chances of them getting sentenced to juvie prison till 21, let alone being tried as an adult, are pretty slim.

stay safe.

[Fitz]

This is rich white people's fault

[T.O.M.]

I'm about 100 miles from there...ugly situation.  But, from what I can tell from the time I've spent in juvi court, it's all too typical.  Social media is amazing to me, in that kids have no respect for the fact that anything put online is out there to everyone.   In some ways, it's worse than saying it out loud, because it may never go away.   Don't understand the whole texting photo thing either, but I am amazed by how many kids and adults do this without a second thought.

Back to the OP, Ohio law has juvi punishments like this:
Misdemeanor - up to 90 days in a detention center (jail for juvis)
Felony 5,, 4, or 3 - 6 months to age 21 in a Dept. of Youth Services facility (juvi prison)
Felony 2 or 1 - 1 year to age 21 in a DYS facility.

Release dates for felonies is determined by the DYS release authority, who allegedly evaluate a juvenile's treatment progress then makes a decision after the minimum date.  Reality is tha the kida get released as soon as they can justify it.

To be tried as an adult, it must be an offender 14 or older, the offense must be a serious felony, and the juvi court must find that the juvenile offender is not amenable to treatment in the juvenile system.  While it's not written, it is understood that short of a murder charge, a juvenile must have a prior felony record and DYS time to be sent to adult court.  Of course, there are provisions for an autommatic bindover if the juvenile uses a firearm to commmit a felony.

[SteveS]

To be tried as an adult, it must be an offender 14 or older, the offense must be a serious felony, and the juvi court must find that the juvenile offender is not amenable to treatment in the juvenile system. 

From what you have seen, do you think these guys are amenable to treatment?

[Lee]

This event makes me sick on multiple levels. Perhaps the most sickening part, aside from the sexual assualt, is that the whole group thought the girl was dead or dying and did nothing. They thought it was funny. The sexual assault was just a bonus for them.
I was surprised that the assault itself was not what I had imagined after hearing the early media reports. They "fingered" her while she was passed out. That is rape under Ohio law. Technically, I don't disagree with that, but the media made it sound like her lifeless body was being passed around and gang-raped.  Perhaps a killing offense to me, if it was my daughter, but I don't know if it makes the boys unsalvageable. Depends on other things.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

their denials till convicted then the sobbing apologies made me less than merciful
 
juvi will be educational.

[T.O.M.]

From what you have seen, do you think these guys are amenable to treatment?

There's a whole list of factors a court has to consider in making that decision,, including a psych. evaluation, educational assessment, social/family investigtion.  I prosecuted about 20 bindovers (transfer from juvi to adult) in my past.  Most judges almost require a prior juvi/DYS stint before they will rules that a kid is not amenable.

[T.O.M.]

their denials till convicted then the sobbing apologies made me less than merciful
 
juvi will be educational.

Ohio DYS is nasty.  About twice the number of violent incidents in the juvi facilities than in the Ohio adult prison system.  Huge gang issues in the facilities.  It's as bad as you imagine...

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i know guys who try to get upgraded to adult charges to avoid juvi. i can do time. juvi scares me.

and i'll shed few tears for those 2

how do you apologize for something you claimed you never did?   even with a land shark coaching you how does that work? what were they thinking with video as evidence?

[Doggy Daddy]

how do you apologize for something you claimed you never did?   even with a land shark coaching you how does that work? what were they thinking with video as evidence?

A few years back I served on a jury in a case where a guy robbed a convenience store at knife point.  We had crystal clear video, testimony from the clerk who had stood between the crook and the front door (for a moment, until the knife came out), and testimony from cops who had been driving by as the crook bolted and who had chased him around the area and cornered him in an apartment complex laundry room.

The jury forewoman and I wanted to throw the book at this guy.  There were others (one in particular) who wanted us to compromise down to barely shoplifting.  They really believed there was reasonable doubt.  The forewoman and I stood our ground for several days, hung the jury, then told the prosecutor how to do better when they re-tried him.

Oh, and after the case was over the judge read the guy's record to us.  "Lengthy" would be an understatement.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

There is a case in DC were 11 people want to convict a guy of murder. One woman hung the jury.her reason? "i don't wanna send another yoing black man to jail!"
He walked. Killed again

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

[SteveS]

There's a whole list of factors a court has to consider in making that decision,, including a psych. evaluation,

In a previous career, I did a fair number of these evaluations, plus treatment when it was ordered.  It was difficult.  If someone is being evaluated, there is a huge incentive to lie and make themselves look better.  I am not sure how helpful these kinds of evaluations are, though there are some tests like the MMPI, that can provide some useful information.

[vaskidmark]

From what you have seen, do you think these guys are amenable to treatment?

As in, will <treatment> bring about any positive change in thought process, and thus in behavior?

As one formerly certified by the State to offer psychosocial rehabilitative counseling to convicted sex offenders my considered and professional opinion is not only no, but hell no.

The "art" still begins by trying to find or instill a sense of empathy.  IMHO you could not get empathy into them with a pile driver.

These kids know exactly and precisely what they did wrong - they got caught!  Not that they ever believed that they were doing anything for which one could be "caught".

And so you ask, "skid, as a (formerly) certified professional practitioner of the art, what, if anything, do you suggest be done?"  My best-of-all-possible answers is that we climb in the wayback machine and 1) perform a retroactive therapeutic abortion.  Your choice of how many generations we go back; or 2) we set the wayback macine a little less way back and grab the biological progenitors of these two and, by force if necessary instill in them the ability and willingness to parent in order to achieve law-abiding individuals who know and respect the boundaries of social interaction.  This "force if necessary" applies to the issue of the biological progenitors as well.  If I start early enough I may not "create" a productive member of society that does not go around sexually assaulting anybody, but by golly I can make one afraid to even contemplate doing so.  Sort of like how you "convince" a dog to stay inside the invisible fence.

But since there is no best-of-all-possible worlds and no wayback machine, what can we do?  My best response is to throw them into the adult system and let the details of their crime be known.  It does not solve anything, it does not improve anybody, and there is about a 70% chance that with three years of release they will both violate conditions of release (used to be called parole but we don't have that any more) and reoffend.  Makes you all warm and fuzzy inside, doesn't it?

stay safe.

[dogmush]

The "art" still begins by trying to find or instill a sense of empathy.  IMHO you could not get empathy into them with a pile driver.

I'd be willing to give it a shot.  Got a pile driver?

Joking asisde, Mrs Mush used to work in the juvie system down here and it was a real eye opener for me.  with the recidivism rates that juvi programs have I wonder why we bother to let any of them go.  Sex Offenders as well.

The real issue, as skid mentioned, is that these guys don't think they did anything wrong.  Oh they'll mouth the platitudes, but they don't believe them.  So, as a society, we either never let them go, realize they'll almost certainly rape again, or do something so tramatic to them that the mere thought of it stops the next rape in it's tracks.

Not really any good choice there.

[Balog]

I'm ok with the death penalty for rape/child molestation etc as long as there is conclusive hard evidence. Your semen is inside a child? Death penalty. Video of you raping a girl? Death penalty. He said she said about whether it was consensual? Probably not.

I'm not a feminist by any means, but news stories about rapists that focus on how sad it is that these promising young men threw their lives away and whole towns where protecting the high school football team is moire important than stopping rapists etc ad nauseum are what folks mean when they're talking about the rape culture.

[280plus]

My daughter was a victim of cyber bullying. teenage girls can be absolutely brutal. The State Police tracked their little asses down and scared the bejesus out of them though. We decided not to press charges. The trooper was not happy with us.

[Tallpine]

Everyone involved are quite the model citizens 

[gunsmith]

I'm about 100 miles from there...ugly situation.  But, from what I can tell from the time I've spent in juvi court, it's all too typical.  Social media is amazing to me, in that kids have no respect for the fact that anything put online is out there to everyone.   In some ways, it's worse than saying it out loud, because it may never go away.   Don't understand the whole texting photo thing either, but I am amazed by how many kids and adults do this without a second thought.

Back to the OP, Ohio law has juvi punishments like this:
Misdemeanor - up to 90 days in a detention center (jail for juvis)
Felony 5,, 4, or 3 - 6 months to age 21 in a Dept. of Youth Services facility (juvi prison)
Felony 2 or 1 - 1 year to age 21 in a DYS facility.

Release dates for felonies is determined by the DYS release authority, who allegedly evaluate a juvenile's treatment progress then makes a decision after the minimum date.  Reality is tha the kida get released as soon as they can justify it.

To be tried as an adult, it must be an offender 14 or older, the offense must be a serious felony, and the juvi court must find that the juvenile offender is not amenable to treatment in the juvenile system.  While it's not written, it is understood that short of a murder charge, a juvenile must have a prior felony record and DYS time to be sent to adult court.  Of course, there are provisions for an autommatic bindover if the juvenile uses a firearm to commmit a felony.

Sometimes its really amazing how open peoples facebooks are, it was worse in the myspace heyday.

[brimic]

'm not a feminist by any means, but news stories about rapists that focus on how sad it is that these promising young men threw their lives away and whole towns where protecting the high school football team is moire important than stopping rapists etc ad nauseum are what folks mean when they're talking about the rape culture.

A lot of those go on to play college ball where there is even a bigger community protecting their anti-social behavior.

[Boomhauer]

This event makes me sick on multiple levels. Perhaps the most sickening part, aside from the sexual assualt, is that the whole group thought the girl was dead or dying and did nothing. They thought it was funny. The sexual assault was just a bonus for them.
I was surprised that the assault itself was not what I had imagined after hearing the early media reports. They "fingered" her while she was passed out. That is rape under Ohio law. Technically, I don't disagree with that, but the media made it sound like her lifeless body was being passed around and gang-raped.  Perhaps a killing offense to me, if it was my daughter, but I don't know if it makes the boys unsalvageable.

A major problem of what is wrong with our society is that kids are becoming sociopaths and encouraged to do so at a young age. This type behavior is common, tolerated, encouraged. It's very excrabated by parents who "just want to be their kid's friend" instead of a parent.

[AZRedhawk44]

All I can think when I see this thread is two trailer park girls go round the outside...

 

[vaskidmark]

A major problem of what is wrong with our society is that kids are becoming sociopaths and encouraged to do so at a young age. This type behavior is common, tolerated, encouraged. It's very excrabated by parents who "just want to be their kid's friend" instead of a parent.

On behalf of the sociopaths of the USA I strongly object to being lumped in with feral children.  (Yes, by all diagnostic criteria I am a sociopath.  Wanna make something of it?)

You cannot "make" someone become a sociopath, as it is a cluster of psychological affects - but mostly a cluster of the absence of specific psychological traits most of the rest of you have in abundance.  The Brits have done a fair job distinguishing between ferals, yobs, yutes, and chavs.  You are invited to go find out about each of those "types".

For those that wonder how a full-blown sociopath manages to make it through the world today without ending up in prison or the grave - most of us are used car salesmen, divorce attorneys, TV infomercial hucksters, and first-tier computer help desk jockies.  A few of us drift or find ourselves pulled into the "higher" professional callings, especially accounts receivable, social work, and medical research recruiting.  While I cannot speak for the rest of my tribe out there, I will say that once I learned to fake sincerity all the rest was downhill.

stay safe.

[SteveS]

As one formerly certified by the State to offer psychosocial rehabilitative counseling to convicted sex offenders my considered and professional opinion is not only no, but hell no.

I worked in that field, too.  I think it entirely depends on the person and there are some good treatment programs out there.  It is a lot of work for these people to get better and they have to be brutally honest with themselves.

[SteveS]

Joking asisde, Mrs Mush used to work in the juvie system down here and it was a real eye opener for me.  with the recidivism rates that juvi programs have I wonder why we bother to let any of them go.  Sex Offenders as well.

 

According to a 2002 Bureau of Justice Study on sex offenders, the recidivism rate for sex offenders was 5.3% within 3 years of being released.  I was able to find a few other studies that went into longer time periods, but they were all within a few percentage points.  Obviously, the vast majority of these people are not doing it again.  I don't know if they are "cured" or just find other ways to control their urges.

[zahc]

...or were wrongly/unfairly convicted.