Author Topic: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole  (Read 16012 times)

cordex

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #100 on: August 13, 2015, 11:58:05 AM »
Not necessarily, no.
Then what makes the difference between retributive confinement until death and non-retributive confinement until death?

Tallpine

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #101 on: August 13, 2015, 01:40:10 PM »
Then what makes the difference between retributive confinement until death and non-retributive confinement until death?

Extra cheese  ???
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #102 on: August 13, 2015, 01:43:59 PM »
It's my home and I'm licensed there.  I live away though.



Oh, thank god.


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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #103 on: August 13, 2015, 01:54:38 PM »
It's my home and I'm licensed there.  I live away though.

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zxcvbob

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #104 on: August 13, 2015, 02:21:28 PM »
Extra cheese  ???

I think you just won.  :lol:
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freakazoid

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #105 on: August 13, 2015, 07:19:01 PM »
We're talking about execution here tallpine, not locking the guy away.  There are very good reasons to keep these folks out of society - there are really no good reasons to visit retribution on them.  The retributive part of the criminal justice system should be reserved for people who chose to do wrong, not for people who have completely lost the plot and are obviously ill.

The legal system is farked because it doesn't distinguish between the two at the moment.

Something you should be aware of is that it's possible for people who are found incompetent to stand trial to be treated to minimal sanity and then tried....and convicted of the crime, even though they committed the crime in a state that left them incompetent to stand trial!

"Insanity" essentially has no legal meaning anymore - no criminal defense lawyer in America wants to run that defense, because it virtually cannot succeed.  That is definitely a problem.  I like to show the videos of aileen wournos before her execution as an example....you have to be wilfully committed to executing the lame and dumb to watch that and think "yep, she's sane enough to get he needle."

You seem to be working under the assumption that the death penalty is being used as some sort of punishment.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #106 on: August 13, 2015, 07:38:31 PM »
I think you are presuming that being a mite touched precludes being able to choose to do wrong. This can be , but is not always, the case


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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #107 on: August 13, 2015, 07:49:53 PM »
I'm not necessarily pro death penalty, mostly because I don't trust the state to not screw up in a system that rewards the prosecution for locking people up, but is the death penalty actually retributive?  Or is it to remove someone from society who cannot be rehabilitated or trusted to be loose in society?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #108 on: August 13, 2015, 11:10:08 PM »
You seem to be working under the assumption that the death penalty is being used as some sort of punishment.

The appropriate punishment for a murderer.

I'm beyond tired of hearing that .gov shouldn't kill murderers because (gasp) they might screw it up. The government screws up everything. Next "justification," please.
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lupinus

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2015, 12:24:23 AM »
The appropriate punishment for a murderer.

I'm beyond tired of hearing that .gov shouldn't kill murderers because (gasp) they might screw it up. The government screws up everything. Next "justification," please.
Except that most things the government screws up can be fixed or at least gotten around.

When they stick you in the ground it's kind of permanent.


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SADShooter

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2015, 12:36:31 AM »
I'm not necessarily pro death penalty, mostly because I don't trust the state to not screw up in a system that rewards the prosecution for locking people up, but is the death penalty actually retributive?  Or is it to remove someone from society who cannot be rehabilitated or trusted to be loose in society?
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Tallpine

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2015, 10:43:07 AM »
Except that most things the government screws up can be fixed or at least gotten around.

When they stick you in the ground it's kind of permanent.

Taking away the 20 or 30 best years of your life is sorta permanent too - assuming you even survive incarceration.

Of course, IMO the best "capital punishment" is meted out by a would-be victim - no chance of getting the wrong person  =)
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vaskidmark

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #112 on: August 14, 2015, 04:46:09 PM »
The CT Supreme Court just retroactiveified the legislation that outlawed the death penalty.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/08/13/connecticut-supreme-court-says-the-death-penalty-is-unconstitutional-banning-it-for-remaining-inmates-on-death-row/

Quote
This decision comes three years after Connecticut abolished capital punishment while leaving death sentences intact for inmates already on death row. Lawmakers also kept the death penalty as an option for crimes committed before that 2012 bill was signed into law.

In the case before the state’s highest court, an inmate sentenced to death a decade ago argued that he should not be executed because his crime was committed before Connecticut prohibited future death sentences.

Quote
The justices agreed with that basic principle, saying the state could not execute someone who committed a crime before that same crime would no longer warrant a death sentence.

 :facepalm: [tinfoil]  'Splain that to me.  My head hurts too much trying to figure it out.  I'm still trying to figure out how they can go all ex post facto on a law that specifically left all previous death sentences intact (because they were not specifically included).

These guys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders along with some others get moved back to some version of not-death-row.  How much more does one need to do to qualify as "heinous" and "without redeeming social quality"?

stay safe. 
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

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They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Firethorn

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #113 on: August 14, 2015, 05:45:52 PM »
Then what makes the difference between retributive confinement until death and non-retributive confinement until death?

I'd tend to go with how they're allowed to treat you. 

If you're a sort of well-meaning Typhoid Mary*, or just prone to the occasional psychic break where you start seeing people as xenomorphs or whatever, and they can't medicate you consistently enough to prevent that from happening 'occasionally'.  Then you get a 'nice' detention, much like an Alzheimer's patient might get.  You aren't charged for your stay, if you do any work, you're paid at least minimum wage, etc...

Prison they'd have much more control over you.

*Her actual behavior was less than ideal, given that they tracked it down to her and she kept working in the food industry infecting others.

lupinus

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #114 on: August 15, 2015, 03:46:34 AM »
Taking away the 20 or 30 best years of your life is sorta permanent too - assuming you even survive incarceration.

Of course, IMO the best "capital punishment" is meted out by a would-be victim - no chance of getting the wrong person  =)
Sure the time spent would be irreplaceable. But you can be set free to live the remainder of your time, with a sizable "sorry 'bout that" check if dealt the right hand and it is played well.

If a high enough burden of proof is met, I've got no problem with the death penalty. In fact, I full support it and think it should be used more for a wider variety of crimes. But the burden of proof needs to meet absolute certainty, IMO, before it is applied.
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Scout26

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #115 on: August 15, 2015, 08:50:23 PM »
There's something different about a guy who shoots up a theatre because he thinks he's batman, and a guy who kills his ex wife because he's pissed off.  Getting all blood thirsty for revenge on a guy who sees things and hears voices just makes no sense.

The former needs to be put down, he is a danger to society.  The latter should walk, as he was obviously putting down a rabid animal.

 ;) ;) =D
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vaskidmark

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #116 on: August 15, 2015, 11:38:29 PM »
Scout -

Remember to save me some marshmallows.  I think we have adjoining seats in the fiery pit. ;)

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

SADShooter

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #117 on: August 16, 2015, 12:56:45 AM »
Scout -

Remember to save me some marshmallows.  I think we have adjoining seats in the fiery pit. ;)

stay safe.

I'll cover the graham crackers. Surely someone will be along with chocolate.
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cordex

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #118 on: August 16, 2015, 01:18:56 AM »
I'll cover the graham crackers. Surely someone will be along with chocolate.
I think the ex-wives are bringing the chocolate.  It is hell after all.

De Selby

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #119 on: August 16, 2015, 01:40:40 AM »
The former needs to be put down, he is a danger to society.  The latter should walk, as he was obviously putting down a rabid animal.

 ;) ;) =D

You sir have a point.

No laughing matter there though - I blame the law.  For whatever reason the paternalistic conservatives and man hating branch of feminists have managed to conspire to make a family law system that literally destroys men. 
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230RN

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #120 on: August 17, 2015, 09:10:00 AM »
I'm not necessarily pro death penalty, mostly because I don't trust the state to not screw up in a system that rewards the prosecution for locking people up, but is the death penalty actually retributive?  Or is it to remove someone from society who cannot be rehabilitated or trusted to be loose in society?
I'm with you on the first part, but in the second part, I think you're stating it as if retribution versus punishment are somehow mutually exclusive.

Across a sample of society, and in any given individual, it's probably a mixture of both.

I have an intellectual kind of disappointment with the whole damned thing because he was a pretty bright individual who was studying neuroscience, and could have made significant contributions in that field.  Now (given that he survives the prison environment) he still might, a la the birdman of Alcatraz meme.  (Yeah, I know, that was overdramatized and fictionalized in the movie.)

As a side comment, it sometimes seems that somehow there is a point in the population's intellect versus social adaptation "Quotient," if you will, where a certain amount of instability may occur.  That is, where intellect actually interferes with social adaptation.

Yet, with still higher intellect, the person realizes his maladaptive behavior and "acts normal."

The smartest person I ever knew once remarked, "Bright people join Mensa.  Very bright people join Mensa Squared.  But very, very bright people join the Rotarians and the Lions club and their church choir."

In other words, Leonard Hofstadter was wayyyyy smarter than Sheldon Cooper.

Terry
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 09:45:29 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #121 on: August 17, 2015, 10:30:55 AM »
You sir have a point.

No laughing matter there though - I blame the law.  For whatever reason the paternalistic conservatives and man hating branch of feminists have managed to conspire to make a family law system that literally destroys men. 

It used to be common to hear that the Democrats/liberals wanted to run the country as its mother and the Republicans/conservatives wanted to be the father.

The truth about western civilization is maternalism is a more accurate description than paternalism . There is very little left in society that is truly patriarchal, even among the Republicans/conservatives. The west is a feminist culture already IMHO.

 
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230RN

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #122 on: August 17, 2015, 11:53:59 PM »
It used to be common to hear that the Democrats/liberals wanted to run the country as its mother and the Republicans/conservatives wanted to be the father.

The truth about western civilization is maternalism is a more accurate description than paternalism . There is very little left in society that is truly patriarchal, even among the Republicans/conservatives. The west is a feminist culture already IMHO.


I entertain the notion that this is a result of the successive slaughter of our best, brightest, strongest, and bravest men and boys in successive wars.

You keep culling puppies with upright pointy ears out of  puppy litters for generations, and sooner or later, you end up with puppies with limp floppy ears.

If ya get my drift.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 09:22:23 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

vaskidmark

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #123 on: August 18, 2015, 09:11:13 AM »
I entertain the notion that this is a result of the successive slaughter of our best, brightest, strongest, and bravest men and boys in successive wars.

You keep culling puppies with upright pointy ears out of  puppy litters for generations, and sooner or later, you end up with puppies with floppy ears.

If ya get my drift.

Terry, 230RN

It only took the Brits 2 wars.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Colorado Shooter - Life Without Parole
« Reply #124 on: August 18, 2015, 09:50:19 AM »
I entertain the notion that this is a result of the successive slaughter of our best, brightest, strongest, and bravest men and boys in successive wars.

You keep culling puppies with upright pointy ears out of  puppy litters for generations, and sooner or later, you end up with puppies with limp floppy ears.

If ya get my drift.

Terry, 230RN

It only took the Brits 2 wars.

stay safe.

Terry is spot on.

Skid is focusing too close to the present.
Not really, they'd been shipping the best and brightest all around the empire for quite awhile to get them slaughtered in various and sundry manner
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams