Author Topic: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"  (Read 4985 times)

Iain

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2007, 03:11:40 AM »
Wisconsin has had a few off years with snow also. A few years ago they had to truck in snow for the yearly Snowmobile races in Eagle River, it might have been the same year that they almost had to cancel the Birkenbeiner race- I think they ran it on a shorter course than usual. This year we have more snow than we've had in 10-15 years, and the coldest february in about 20 years.

A hot/cold week/month/even year isn't necessarily indicative of anything either way, and anyone who tries to extrapolate much from those time periods in either the for or agin camps is on to a loser.

I was half tempted to take photo's of my parents garden when I was there the other day. The roses, clematis and the grass are in much denial about the seasons. Some of the roses haven't been dormant at all this winter, lots of fresh growth on them. That still doesn't mean that we're not about to experience the coldest March on record and still be in a long term average upward trend. Weather isn't climate.

"Climate is the average weather conditions at a particular place over a long period of time." (see sig) Which brings me back to Cosmo's ice fairs, apparently the Thames hasn't frozen at all since the winter of 1962/3, and then it only froze as far as the outermost western edge of greater London, which is a very large place.
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MechAg94

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2007, 05:42:53 AM »
Iain, I agree that local weather doesn't say a whole lot.  Climate patterns out live people's memories by a long shot. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Iain

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2007, 08:05:07 AM »
Iain, I agree that local weather doesn't say a whole lot.  Climate patterns out live people's memories by a long shot. 

Not quite. The whole argument here is about the rate of climate change, and whilst this is going to be a controversial statement (but maybe only here) there isn't really an argument about whether or not there is warming, but about the causes of the warming, and only then amongst a very few.

The following is a graph of temperature anomalies from the US National Climatic Data Centre. Zero on this chart corresponds to the IPCC standard of the global average temperature between 1960 and 1990



There's a few people around who have been alive for a good chunk of that time.
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MechAg94

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2007, 06:42:40 AM »
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9005566792811497638&q=great+global+warming+swindle&hl=en

Video on global warming.  Pretty long.

Iain, I wouldn't debate that point a great deal.  The cause of this current warming trend and whether or not it will last is the question.  And will it result in disaster and the end of life as we know it as some seem to imply.  Smiley 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Iain

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2007, 06:59:19 AM »
I knew that was going to be posted sooner or later.

See http://www.jri.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=137&Itemid=83 or my sig, which is the same thing. I'd pre-empted the appearance here of that documentary. One of the scientists interviewed is reportedly unhappy over misrepresentation of what the programme was to be when he was approached*, wouldn't be the first time for the maker of the programme I'm led to believe.**

One thing you have to ask yourself - whenever someone writes an article or makes a programme arguing against global warming, why are the names Lindzen, Singer, Spencer and sometimes Ball (lawsuit pending) plus one or two other names like Svensmark (occasionally) mentioned? Is it because they are the top names, or is it because they are nearly the only names with any relevant expertise?

Also worth noting that one cannot, without significant grounding in the science, accept their word above all others and still call oneself a sceptic, one merely has oppositional beliefs.

*Excerpt from an email from Carl Wunsch that has appeared on realclimate [later edited to include the full text of Carl Wunsch's letter]

Quote
Mr. Steven Green
Head of Production
Wag TV
2D Leroy House
436 Essex Road
London N1 3QP

10 March 2007

Dear Mr. Green:

I am writing to record what I told you on the telephone yesterday about
your Channel 4 film "The Global Warming Swindle." Fundamentally,
I am the one who was swindled---please read the email below that
was sent to me (and re-sent by you). Based upon this email and
subsequent telephone conversations, and discussions with
the Director, Martin Durkin, I thought I was being asked
to appear in a film that would discuss in a balanced way
the complicated elements of understanding of climate change---
in the best traditions of British television. Is there any indication
in the email evident to an outsider that the product would be
so tendentious, so unbalanced?

I was approached, as explained to me on the telephone, because
I was known to have been unhappy with some of the more excitable
climate-change stories in the
British media, most conspicuously the notion that the Gulf
Stream could disappear, among others.
When a journalist approaches me suggesting a "critical approach" to a
technical subject, as the email states, my inference is that we
are to discuss which elements are contentious, why they are contentious,
and what the arguments are on all sides. To a scientist, "critical" does
not mean a hatchet job---it means a thorough-going examination of
the science. The scientific subjects described in the email,
and in the previous and subsequent telephone conversations, are complicated,
worthy of exploration, debate, and an educational effort with the
public. Hence my willingness to participate. Had the words "polemic", or
"swindle" appeared in these preliminary discussions, I would have
instantly declined to be involved.

I spent hours in the interview describing
many of the problems of understanding the ocean in climate change,
and the ways in which some of the more dramatic elements get
exaggerated in the media relative to more realistic, potentially
truly catastrophic issues, such as
the implications of the oncoming sea level rise. As I made clear, both in the
preliminary discussions, and in the interview itself, I believe that
global warming is a very serious threat that needs equally serious
discussion and no one seeing this film could possibly deduce that.

What we now have is an out-and-out propaganda piece, in which
there is not even a gesture toward balance or explanation of why
many of the extended inferences drawn in the film are not widely
accepted by the scientific community. There are so many examples,
it's hard to know where to begin, so I will cite only one:
a speaker asserts, as is true, that carbon dioxide is only
a small fraction of the atmospheric mass. The viewer is left to
infer that means it couldn't really matter. But even a beginning
meteorology student could tell you that the relative masses of gases
are irrelevant to their effects on radiative balance. A director
not intending to produce pure propaganda would have tried to eliminate that
piece of disinformation.

An example where my own discussion was grossly distorted by context:
I am shown explaining that a warming ocean could expel more
carbon dioxide than it absorbs -- thus exacerbating the greenhouse
gas buildup in the atmosphere and hence worrisome. It
was used in the film, through its context, to imply
that CO2 is all natural, coming from the ocean, and that
therefore the human element is irrelevant. This use of my remarks, which
are literally what I said, comes close to fraud.

I have some experience in dealing with TV and print reporters
and do understand something of the ways in which one can be
misquoted, quoted out of context, or otherwise misinterpreted. Some
of that is inevitable in the press of time or space or in discussions of
complicated issues. Never before, however, have I had
an experience like this one. My appearance in the "Global Warming
Swindle" is deeply embarrasing, and my professional reputation
has been damaged. I was duped---an uncomfortable position in which to be.

At a minimum, I ask that the film should never be seen again publicly
with my participation included. Channel 4 surely owes an apology to
its viewers, and perhaps WAGTV owes something to Channel 4. I will be
taking advice as to whether I should proceed to make some more formal protest.

Sincerely,

Carl Wunsch
Cecil and Ida Green Professor of
Physical Oceanography
Massachusetts Institute of Technology

** Durkin has been taken to task before over misrepresenting what the aims of his programme were to potential participants. The Independent Television Commission said that he had misrepresented and by editing had distorted what participants had said in a documentary called 'Against Nature.'

In another programme, commissioned and rejected by the BBC but later shown by Channel 4, he argued that breast implants reduced the risk of breast cancer. It was rejected by the BBC because apparently the BBC's own researcher decided that Durkin had essentially ignored any evidence that ran counter to his claim.

Perhaps Michael Moore would have some thoughts on defending such creative editing as Wunsch alleges.
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stevelyn

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2007, 11:28:36 AM »
I spent the last two weeks in Fairbanks where I was waking up to temps of -42 to -44F every morning. I didn't notice any global warming taking place there.
As a matter of fact, I can't see any taking place out here in Aleutian Hell right now either.
Be careful that the toes you step on now aren't connected to the ass you have to kiss later.

Eat Moose. Wear Wolf.

richyoung

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2007, 07:16:10 AM »

One thing you have to ask yourself - whenever someone writes an article or makes a programme arguing against global warming, why are the names Lindzen, Singer, Spencer and sometimes Ball (lawsuit pending) plus one or two other names like Svensmark (occasionally) mentioned? Is it because they are the top names, or is it because they are nearly the only names with any relevant expertise?

it only takes ONE that is RIGHT - thats the way science works.  (In contrast, it does NOT work by trotting out discreditied charts and graphs from that corrupt political animal, the United Nations and its subsidieries like the IPCC).  As to why Lindzen keeps showing up, I've posted hie bio in response to you many times - he literally wrote the book on satellite IR readings and their interpetation.  HIS take on the matter is that satellite readings show less than 0.19 degrees Celsius cumulative warming over the approximately 30 year history of good data.  He further states that the smallest change that the instruments can detect with any certainty that it is not just "noise" as opposed to "signal" is about 0.2 degrees C - so that we can't even be certain at this time IF "global warming" is occuring at all.  Of course, others disagree - and "correct" the data until it tells them what they want.  That also is not science.  What would be science would be a collection of good datat for at least 10 - 20 sunspot cycles (each cycle is about 21 years.)  WHY sunspot cycles?  Because the magnetic field of the Sun varies greatly with sunspot activity.  WHen sunspot activity is LOW, more cosmic radiation strikes our upper atmosphere, causing the formation of sulfuric acid/water droplets - effectively "seeding" cloud formation.  More clouds, cooler Earth.  Less clouds, warmer Earth.  If you want to blame mankind for the latest uptrend in temp, it probably has much more to do with our reducing particulate emissions, which both reflect sunlight AND seed cloud formation - but it was done for "cleaner air".  Unfortunately, cleaner air is warmer air.
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MechAg94

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2007, 03:25:49 PM »
Seems strange that video is dismissed as propaganda while most of the pro-AGW propaganda is not?  I have seen very little pro-AGW stuff that wasn't propaganda.  Has the UN released their report yet? 

I wasn't caught up with the "I didn't say that" disputes on the video.  I was more interested with their take on the temperature record, effects of sun activity, and past temperature/CO2 relationships.  I tend to ignore the BS on the skeptic side also as far as the science is concerned. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Iain

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2007, 04:53:35 PM »
I wasn't caught up with the "I didn't say that" disputes on the video.  I was more interested with their take on the temperature record, effects of sun activity, and past temperature/CO2 relationships.  I tend to ignore the BS on the skeptic side also as far as the science is concerned. 
Unfortunately the 'I didn't say that in that context' does reflect seriously on the integrity of the film and the film maker in question. I mentioned Moore's name deliberately, creative editing by him would not go uncommented upon. Again, not a climate scientist, but some are raising very serious questions about the graphs and the data used in the film, including dates being inserted at the wrong point in a graph's curve (so to speak) to fit the case being presented better.

Again, see my sig for Sir John Houghton's point by point disagreement with the cases presented in the film. For instance talking about climate models being incapable of accurate modelling and then using a piece of footage with an expert in the field essentially agreeing seems good, but the footage is twenty years old. Whether or not climate models are capable is a question that cannot be addressed by talking about twenty year old climate models, it is essentially dishonest.

Of course there is BS on both sides. That's partly why I feel sorry for Wunsch, he wanted to use that programme to discuss his (very legitimate) concerns about hype and sensationalist reporting in the media, such as shutting down of the Gulf Stream, however he has made his views clear since the airing of the programme...

Quote
I believe that climate change is real, a major threat, and almost surely has a major human-induced component. But I have tried to stay out of the `climate wars' because all nuance tends to be lost, and the distinction between what we know firmly, as scientists, and what we suspect is happening, is so difficult to maintain in the presence of rhetorical excess. In the long run, our credibility as scientists rests on being very careful of, and protective of, our authority and expertise.

The science of climate change remains incomplete. Some elements are so firmly based on well-understood principles, or for which the observational record is so clear, that most scientists would agree that they are almost surely true (adding CO2 to the atmosphere is dangerous; sea level will continue to rise,...). Other elements remain more uncertain, but we as scientists in our roles as informed citizens believe society should be deeply concerned about their possibility: failure of US midwestern precipitation in 100 years in a mega-drought; melting of a large part of the Greenland ice sheet, among many other examples.

I am on record in a number of places complaining about the over-dramatization and unwarranted extrapolation of scientific facts.
there is more here

rich - not going to argue about science. Suffice to say, I think you're entirely right to stick to Lindzen, he is a serious figure. Notably Lindzen will be appearing in a televised debate in the US tomorrow, along with Gavin Schmidt of realclimate (and NASA's Goddard Institute), although they obviously won't be on the same side. - http://www.intelligencesquaredus.org/Event.aspx?Event=12
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MechAg94

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2007, 07:23:22 PM »
Quote
I am on record in a number of places complaining about the over-dramatization and unwarranted extrapolation of scientific facts.
I am in agreement with that.  But since proponents made it a media/political issue, that is all we seem to have.
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MechAg94

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2007, 07:38:51 PM »
That point by point rebuttal has its own weaknesses.  It does address some of them okay.  He didn't strike me as very objective about the whole thing. 

Do you have any links about the bad data you mentioned above? 
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Iain

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2007, 02:47:04 AM »
I don't have anything particularly concrete. There is an overlay of two graphs (one from the programme and from elsewhere) that is circulating, but I can't vouch for its validity. We'll see if anything more comes of it. Houghton won't be strictly objective really, the programme was a direct attack on his area of expertise and the conclusions of panels he has chaired. Point by point he does address things like volcanoes, or claims that IPCC says things that it actually doesn't

I'm not going to argue too much about the science, I've said before that arguing about stuff we have little grasp on makes us look a little ridiculous. I'd rather we all spent that time reading, and I'm not willing to engage in arguments about specifics anymore.

Instead I'm interested in the public debate. Considerable numbers of people I have conversed with since the airing of this show now say that it changed their mind. People I know saw 'An Inconvenient Truth' and say that it changed their mind. In the wider public some of these mind-changers are probably the same people, not there is anything wrong with changing your mind, in fact it can show strength, but not on the basis of fluff pieces or agitprop. I share Wunsch's concerns about the debate, I wish that it didn't look like on one side we have Richard Lindzen of MIT and on the other we have Al Gore, loser of the 2000 election, because that doesn't portray how things have lined up in reality.

I found myself writing to the Telegraph the other day after one of their columnists referred to this programme as being an expose with 'virtually all the world's top experts'. That's an absolute lie, and to be honest it's disappointing that this is how the debate is framed. Of course I get equally annoyed by media reports of the kind Wunsch is complaining about, but I'm not sure they are deliberate lies of the Telegraph columnist variety.

I don't agree that it is only proponents that have made it a political issue. Most, Lindzen and a few others aside, seem to me to base their objections to it on politics, or at least couch it in political terms. We really should try and separate what politicians are saying (which some scientists are concerned about) and what scientists are saying. Gore isn't a climate scientist, neither are those EU politicians pushing for a ban on incandescent light bulbs.
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doczinn

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2007, 05:09:00 AM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/science/13gore.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

From a Rapt Audience, a Call to Cool the Hype
By WILLIAM J. BROAD
Published: March 13, 2007

Hollywood has a thing for Al Gore and his three-alarm film on global warming, An Inconvenient Truth, which won an Academy Award for best documentary. So do many environmentalists, who praise him as a visionary, and many scientists, who laud him for raising public awareness of climate change.

But part of his scientific audience is uneasy. In talks, articles and blog entries that have appeared since his film and accompanying book came out last year, these scientists argue that some of Mr. Gores central points are exaggerated and erroneous. They are alarmed, some say, at what they call his alarmism.

I dont want to pick on Al Gore, Don J. Easterbrook, an emeritus professor of geology at Western Washington University, told hundreds of experts at the annual meeting of the Geological Society of America. But there are a lot of inaccuracies in the statements we are seeing, and we have to temper that with real data.

Mr. Gore, in an e-mail exchange about the critics, said his work made the most important and salient points about climate change, if not some nuances and distinctions scientists might want. The degree of scientific consensus on global warming has never been stronger, he said, adding, I am trying to communicate the essence of it in the lay language that I understand.

Although Mr. Gore is not a scientist, he does rely heavily on the authority of science in An Inconvenient Truth, which is why scientists are sensitive to its details and claims.

Criticisms of Mr. Gore have come not only from conservative groups and prominent skeptics of catastrophic warming, but also from rank-and-file scientists like Dr. Easterbook, who told his peers that he had no political ax to grind. A few see natural variation as more central to global warming than heat-trapping gases. Many appear to occupy a middle ground in the climate debate, seeing human activity as a serious threat but challenging what they call the extremism of both skeptics and zealots.

Kevin Vranes, a climatologist at the Center for Science and Technology Policy Research at the University of Colorado, said he sensed a growing backlash against exaggeration. While praising Mr. Gore for getting the message out, Dr. Vranes questioned whether his presentations were overselling our certainty about knowing the future.

Typically, the concern is not over the existence of climate change, or the idea that the human production of heat-trapping gases is partly or largely to blame for the globes recent warming. The question is whether Mr. Gore has gone beyond the scientific evidence.

Hes a very polarizing figure in the science community, said Roger A. Pielke Jr., an environmental scientist who is a colleague of Dr. Vranes at the University of Colorado center. Very quickly, these discussions turn from the issue to the person, and become a referendum on Mr. Gore.

An Inconvenient Truth, directed by Davis Guggenheim, was released last May and took in more than $46 million, making it one of the top-grossing documentaries ever. The companion book by Mr. Gore quickly became a best seller, reaching No. 1 on the New York Times list.

Mr. Gore depicted a future in which temperatures soar, ice sheets melt, seas rise, hurricanes batter the coasts and people die en masse. Unless we act boldly, he wrote, our world will undergo a string of terrible catastrophes.

He clearly has supporters among leading scientists, who commend his popularizations and call his science basically sound. In December, he spoke in San Francisco to the American Geophysical Union and got a reception fit for a rock star from thousands of attendees.

He has credibility in this community, said Tim Killeen, the groups president and director of the National Center for Atmospheric Research, a top group studying climate change. Theres no question hes read a lot and is able to respond in a very effective way.

Some backers concede minor inaccuracies but see them as reasonable for a politician. James E. Hansen, an environmental scientist, director of NASAs Goddard Institute for Space Studies and a top adviser to Mr. Gore, said, Al does an exceptionally good job of seeing the forest for the trees, adding that Mr. Gore often did so better than scientists.

Still, Dr. Hansen said, the former vice presidents work may hold imperfections and technical flaws. He pointed to hurricanes, an icon for Mr. Gore, who highlights the devastation of Hurricane Katrina and cites research suggesting that global warming will cause both storm frequency and deadliness to rise. Yet this past Atlantic season produced fewer hurricanes than forecasters predicted (five versus nine), and none that hit the United States.

We need to be more careful in describing the hurricane story than he is, Dr. Hansen said of Mr. Gore. On the other hand, Dr. Hansen said, he has the bottom line right: most storms, at least those driven by the latent heat of vaporization, will tend to be stronger, or have the potential to be stronger, in a warmer climate.

In his e-mail message, Mr. Gore defended his work as fundamentally accurate. Of course, he said, there will always be questions around the edges of the science, and we have to rely upon the scientific community to continue to ask and to challenge and to answer those questions.

He said not every single adviser agreed with him on every point, but we do agree on the fundamentals  that warming is real and caused by humans.

Mr. Gore added that he perceived no general backlash among scientists against his work. I have received a great deal of positive feedback, he said. I have also received comments about items that should be changed, and I have updated the book and slideshow to reflect these comments. He gave no specifics on which points he had revised.

He said that after 30 years of trying to communicate the dangers of global warming, I think that Im finally getting a little better at it.

While reviewers tended to praise the book and movie, vocal skeptics of global warming protested almost immediately. Richard S. Lindzen, a climatologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a member of the National Academy of Sciences, who has long expressed skepticism about dire climate predictions, accused Mr. Gore in The Wall Street Journal of shrill alarmism.

Some of Mr. Gores centrist detractors point to a report last month by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a United Nations body that studies global warming. The panel went further than ever before in saying that humans were the main cause of the globes warming since 1950, part of Mr. Gores message that few scientists dispute. But it also portrayed climate change as a slow-motion process.

It estimated that the worlds seas in this century would rise a maximum of 23 inches  down from earlier estimates. Mr. Gore, citing no particular time frame, envisions rises of up to 20 feet and depicts parts of New York, Florida and other heavily populated areas as sinking beneath the waves, implying, at least visually, that inundation is imminent.

Bjorn Lomborg, a statistician and political scientist in Denmark long skeptical of catastrophic global warming, said in a syndicated article that the panel, unlike Mr. Gore, had refrained from scaremongering. Climate change is a real and serious problem that calls for careful analysis and sound policy, Dr. Lomborg said. The cacophony of screaming, he added, does not help.

So too, a report last June by the National Academies seemed to contradict Mr. Gores portrayal of recent temperatures as the highest in the past millennium. Instead, the report said, current highs appeared unrivaled since only 1600, the tail end of a temperature rise known as the medieval warm period.

Roy Spencer, a climatologist at the University of Alabama, Huntsville, said on a blog that Mr. Gores film did indeed do a pretty good job of presenting the most dire scenarios. But the June report, he added, shows that all we really know is that we are warmer now than we were during the last 400 years.

Other critics have zeroed in on Mr. Gores claim that the energy industry ran a disinformation campaign that produced false discord on global warming. The truth, he said, was that virtually all unbiased scientists agreed that humans were the main culprits. But Benny J. Peiser, a social anthropologist in Britain who runs the Cambridge-Conference Network, or CCNet, an Internet newsletter on climate change and natural disasters, challenged the claim of scientific consensus with examples of pointed disagreement.

Hardly a week goes by, Dr. Peiser said, without a new research paper that questions part or even some basics of climate change theory, including some reports that offer alternatives to human activity for global warming.

Geologists have documented age upon age of climate swings, and some charge Mr. Gore with ignoring such rhythms.

Nowhere does Mr. Gore tell his audience that all of the phenomena that he describes fall within the natural range of environmental change on our planet, Robert M. Carter, a marine geologist at James Cook University in Australia, said in a September blog. Nor does he present any evidence that climate during the 20th century departed discernibly from its historical pattern of constant change.

In October, Dr. Easterbrook made similar points at the geological society meeting in Philadelphia. He hotly disputed Mr. Gores claim that our civilization has never experienced any environmental shift remotely similar to this threatened change.

Nonsense, Dr. Easterbrook told the crowded session. He flashed a slide that showed temperature trends for the past 15,000 years. It highlighted 10 large swings, including the medieval warm period. These shifts, he said, were up to 20 times greater than the warming in the past century.

Getting personal, he mocked Mr. Gores assertion that scientists agreed on global warming except those industry had corrupted. Ive never been paid a nickel by an oil company, Dr. Easterbrook told the group. And Im not a Republican.

Biologists, too, have gotten into the act. In January, Paul Reiter, an active skeptic of global warmings effects and director of the insects and infectious diseases unit of the Pasteur Institute in Paris, faulted Mr. Gore for his portrayal of global warming as spreading malaria.

For 12 years, my colleagues and I have protested against the unsubstantiated claims, Dr. Reiter wrote in The International Herald Tribune. We have done the studies and challenged the alarmists, but they continue to ignore the facts.

Michael Oppenheimer, a professor of geosciences and international affairs at Princeton who advised Mr. Gore on the book and movie, said that reasonable scientists disagreed on the malaria issue and other points that the critics had raised. In general, he said, Mr. Gore had distinguished himself for integrity.

On balance, he did quite well  a credible and entertaining job on a difficult subject, Dr. Oppenheimer said. For that, he deserves a lot of credit. If you rake him over the coals, youre going to find people who disagree. But in terms of the big picture, he got it right.
D. R. ZINN

Iain

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2007, 09:35:30 AM »
The title of that article doesn't really fit with the content.

'Cool the hype' when most of the scientists interviewed for it (aside from the 'usual suspects') agreed that Gore had done a reasonable job? I'll probably watch the film now on the basis of that, never had the slightest interest until now.

Deltoid and Realclimate are less charitable. I post them for 'balance'.
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Bogie

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2007, 10:01:17 AM »
What disturbs me about "global warming" is that most of the people screaming about it also have the most to gain from it - Those big research grants, etc...
 
Think about it - you never pay any attention to your local TV weather guy unless things are looking out of the ordinary, right?
 
The scientists involved have a cloud over their research because of that (darn, I love mixing meterological metaphors...). Given that, and a miniscule data set, when you take in the geological history of the earth (creationists can STFU... this place has been here a lot longer than a few thousand years), the past century comprises a data set of next to nothing.
 
In addition, take accuracy deviations into account, and you've got a plus/minus variation built in - I doubt that a lot of the thermometers were all that accurate.

Also, the increasing urbanization is going to affect a lot of sites - I'm guessing they don't move the thermometers around a lot. So when what was essentially farmland that they built an airport on 50 years ago gets surrounded by reflective cement heat sinks, well, the area is going to show a skew.
 
Then when you take in the amount of pollution that is created in "developing" countries, and blame it on the US... ARGH!

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Iain

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Re: "Climate is big issue for U.S. hunters, anglers"
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2007, 10:08:55 AM »
Bogie, just quickly some thoughts...

Money - this may or may not be an issue. Fact is the argument works both ways, research grants/oil money. It's a familiar theme, and it's probably a little insulting to those guys who are doing this research.

The data set is not miniscule (and I'm not going to argue about this because we're straight into deep deep water if we do) - ice core samples alone go back thousands and thousands of years. How they derive information is above my head, and beyond the possible scope of a conversation here. Ice core samples of a different variety come right up to relatively recent past.

Urban heat islands are accounted for.

The US is number one in the CO2 stakes.
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