Author Topic: Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems  (Read 6199 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2013, 07:17:01 AM »
Have you actually dealt with the chronic homeless/vagrants? 

Yes.

Quote
Primary reason for gov't is to protect property rights.  Violence in securing them is legitimate.

yes I have.

And no, primary reason for government is to protect freedom in general. At least that's what the Declaration of Independence had in mind.

You protect property rights by imprisoning people who have been proven to have personally committed a specific crime, not by coming up with a short-cut around the concept of individual guilt.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2013, 10:31:46 AM »


And no, primary reason for government is to protect freedom in general.

 :lol:

 :lol:

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 :-X  :-X  :lol:   :lol: :rofl:

 :lol: :'(
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2013, 01:50:00 PM »
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
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makattak

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Re: Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2013, 02:12:13 PM »
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

So you were wrong. Protecting liberty is the secondary purpose of the U.S. Government, as instituted. Protecting life is the primary purpose.   :P :laugh:
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roo_ster

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Re: Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2013, 04:28:32 PM »
Yes.

yes I have.

And no, primary reason for government is to protect freedom in general. At least that's what the Declaration of Independence had in mind.

You protect property rights by imprisoning people who have been proven to have personally committed a specific crime, not by coming up with a short-cut around the concept of individual guilt.

You keep yip-yapping about how these folks have to commit a crime first and I am telling you that they, indeed, have, by the time we start to look at them from a psych point of view.  Generally numerous crimes, trips to the taxpayer-funded public hospital after they hurt themselves, where often they are referred to the taxpayer funded mental hospital, and then kicked to the curb after a bit. 

Meanwhile, perfectly able folk crap out generations of loafing malcontents and we pay for that, too.  Frankly, I'd rather pay to see that the mentally ill (and truly unable to care for themselves vis a vis the unwilling) are squared away.

Oh, and Jefferson cribbed that from Locke, of "life, liberty, and property" fame.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2013, 04:33:07 PM »
Freedom and liberty are two distinct and different creatures.

Sailors go "on liberty" in a port.  Doesn't mean they have freedom.

Liberty is just restrained freedom, granted by the authority that determines the extent of aforesaid liberty.  It is a restricted subset of freedom.

Governments HATE freedom.

"Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth."


Which gets into an ugly philosophical dilemna.  If Liberty is derived from a higher authority, and Governments protect Liberty, Government MUST acknowledge the existence of a higher authority and validate the advocacy of one form of Liberty or another.  Which then restricts religious liberty of those who acknowledge a different higher authority and view Liberty in a different light.

Unless... government views itself as the highest power and the font of Liberty.  In which case, we're all screwed and exist only to breathe validation into the machine or else be consumed as axle grease for it.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 04:38:41 PM by AZRedhawk44 »
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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I reject your authoritah!

MicroBalrog

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Re: Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2013, 05:35:05 PM »
You keep yip-yapping about how these folks have to commit a crime first and I am telling you that they, indeed, have, by the time we start to look at them from a psych point of view.  Generally numerous crimes, trips to the taxpayer-funded public hospital after they hurt themselves, where often they are referred to the taxpayer funded mental hospital, and then kicked to the curb after a bit. 

Meanwhile, perfectly able folk crap out generations of loafing malcontents and we pay for that, too.  Frankly, I'd rather pay to see that the mentally ill (and truly unable to care for themselves vis a vis the unwilling) are squared away.

Oh, and Jefferson cribbed that from Locke, of "life, liberty, and property" fame.

The point is very simple:

1. You do not have a right to a high value to your real estate or business. Same as why it would be immoral to beat up your neighbor for painting his house bright pink.

2. Protection of property is not the first, nor even the second, priority of a jut government as per the Founders.

3. It is a man's sacred right - until he's been proven to be mentally incompetent (a far higher standard than simply mentally ill - to live his life as he sees fit. If he chooses to become a disgusting, rotting wreck, and lie on the ground and sneer at the well-employed tie-wearing nine-to-fiver, that is his sacred right. Indeed, if eventually the vagaries of that life catch up to him and he is about to die of them, it is his sacred right to flip the finger to the nearest nine-to-fiving, church-going, well-paid and well-shaved pillar of the community, and finally expire.

Were I to kidnap a homeless man off the street, and lock him in the best hotel room in the nation, where he'd receive the best food in the world, it would be that homeless man's right to slit my throat and break out of the hotel and flee, and I doubt any court would convict him.
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"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MillCreek

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Re: Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2013, 06:39:10 PM »

Meanwhile, perfectly able folk crap out generations of loafing malcontents and we pay for that, too.  Frankly, I'd rather pay to see that the mentally ill (and truly unable to care for themselves vis a vis the unwilling) are squared away.


I am often reminded that it is just a little twitch in our neurochemistry that separates us from those people on the street shouting at the moon.  There but for the Grace of God go any of us, in most cases.
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Tallpine

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Re: Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2013, 08:15:10 PM »
My neurochemistry has been getting pretty twitchy, lately.   ;)
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2013, 08:15:52 PM »

I am often reminded that it is just a little twitch in our neurochemistry that separates us from those people on the street shouting at the moon.  There but for the Grace of God go any of us, in most cases.


Please note:  the changes in chemistry are not spontaneous.  They are caused.  Among the factors that control the chemistry is the element of Man that does the thinking and feeling.  It is a popular meme that the chemistry controls the thinking and feeling, such believe deriving presumably as a consequence of the observation that, if you grab a lever by the wrong end, you can effect movement at the end that normally has the mechanical advantage.  This should not imply, however, that this is the correct way to use a lever.

Don't buy the idea that there will eventually be a pill to fix any specific ailment, correct any particular complaint, or confer sanity on the insane.  It just doesn't work that way.  You have to address the guy living there, not the symptoms of his living and the baggage he has brought along.
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