Author Topic: Gays in the Military and DADT  (Read 28303 times)

Leatherneck

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Gays in the Military and DADT
« on: February 25, 2010, 06:34:12 PM »
So the Dems in power want to eliminate Don't Ask, Don't Tell as a policy which, if violated, causes one to be summarily discharged with an Honorable Discharge. I personally have no problem with allowing gay people who mind their manners to serve openly and honorably in the armed forces of their country.

But I think it will cause some significant and ugly consequences. I don't want that to happen right now. The Service chiefs agree. General Conway (CMC) has testified to Congress most vocally of all of them that now, with the military under terrific stress from repeated deployments to places where they get killed, is not the time. I agree with them.

What say you?

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wmenorr67

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2010, 06:41:53 PM »
I am on the fence on this one.  Is it better or worse for them to be open about it?  Plus there is still the preception of a double standard.  Females can swing both ways or be gay and they are not pressured as much as men are.  But then again it is the society we live in. 
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taurusowner

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2010, 06:43:44 PM »
As a soldier, I don't really care about someone's orientation.  What I do care about is all the hypersensitive regulations that will come with it.  The last thing we need is another book of rules regarding what we can and can't do or say in order to make homosexuals feel welcome.  The same thing happened with females.  It's not that they can't function well in the military, it's that now soldiers can get counseled for having mens magazines or even just talking about females in a sexual or physical way.  So it's the same with homosexuals.  Lets say a squad gets tasked with burning latrine refuse and one solider says "this is so gay".  That should NOT be grounds for a counseling because of some hate speech code or whatnot.  And if DADT is overturned, you can bet that kind of nonsense will be close to follow.

Leatherneck

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2010, 07:01:07 PM »
I assume--perhaps naively--that the rules would say something like "No inappropriate advances or contact." Just like between hetero men and women now. Subject to the usual discipline.

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Jamisjockey

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2010, 07:02:48 PM »
Its a strawman.  Get everyone riled up over gays in the military (ohe noes!), while they ramrod through healthcare, etc.

I assume--perhaps naively--that the rules would say something like "No inappropriate advances or contact." Just like between hetero men and women now. Subject to the usual discipline.

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It would make the Navy jokes oh-so-better... :laugh:
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CNYCacher

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2010, 07:10:47 PM »
Its a strawman.  Get everyone riled up over gays in the military (ohe noes!), while they ramrod through healthcare, etc.

It would make the Navy jokes oh-so-better... :laugh:
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Leatherneck

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2010, 07:16:42 PM »
Yeah, I understand why the dems are raising it now--to rile up the arch-conservatives about "something else" while they ram health care down our throats.

But let's discuss the basic issues surrounding DADT in this thread, OK?

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MillCreek

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2010, 07:29:21 PM »
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MechAg94

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2010, 07:58:46 PM »

1.  Women and men still don't serve side by side 100%.  I did hear they were lifting the ban against women in sub service.  We'll see how that goes.

2.  As far as black/white, didn't the military integrate before many parts of the country?  Besides, I'm not sure that is the same issue.
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MechAg94

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2010, 08:00:34 PM »
I tend to agree with Ragnar though.  There are bound to be a whole lot of other regulations/issues that come with it.
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French G.

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2010, 08:16:09 PM »
Boys and girls will be their respective selves. Keep it in off-duty times, hand everyone birth control, discharge both if someone gets knocked up. Yeah, that's not a gay problem, just saying we deal with sexual attraction and interaction issues constantly in the military. Plenty of gays already there. Had some work for me. Pretty crappy that no one would give her long time SO any benefits if she died, much less even a phone call. DADT was screwed from the start. Either say no completely and try to enforce that unenforceable rule, or let them in completely.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2010, 08:56:50 PM »
Its a strawman.  Get everyone riled up over gays in the military (ohe noes!), while they ramrod through healthcare, etc.

It's also supposed to shore up BHO's falling approval stats with the base.  Making up for the other promises he hasn't kept. 


Millcreek,

Nice try with the women/blacks comparison.  'Cause those are such similar issues, right?   ;/
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RevDisk

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2010, 09:12:27 PM »

Oddly enough, I hadn't given the matter much thought until after I left the service.  I knew some folks back when I was in that were gay.  Personally, I could have cared less.  The majority of them were just normal folks to me.  I never considered them anything else. 

Long after I was out, I got to talking to a friend I hadn't seen in over a decade.  She mentioned she had a girlfriend and the whole Prop 8 thing.  It kinda dawned on me.  It's not right for gays to pay their taxes and be treated as less than human.  Granted, they're now allowed most rights.  Voting, working, etc.  Sodomy laws have been only been invalidated by the Supreme Court in 2003.  Prior to that, technically homosexuality was illegal in multiple states.  Whether it was enforced or not varied, of course, but still...

I've personally never expected to be treated as a person by anyone.  When it happens, it is pleasant and surprising.  I've always been of the opinion while theoretically one is entitled to being treated as a person, reality is not so accommodating.  The best solution is not give the option for folks to treat you as less than a person.  Either by maintaining a high state of readiness or being highly skilled enough that folks value one's service more than their inclinations to destroy that which is different.  That combination has saved my life on more than one occasion, including during my time in the military. 

While I am pragmatic enough to believe now is not the best time to force the issue, I cannot morally accept treating law-abiding and tax paying US citizens as less than human. 
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makattak

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2010, 09:27:35 PM »
While I am pragmatic enough to believe now is not the best time to force the issue, I cannot morally accept treating law-abiding and tax paying US citizens as less than human. 


Sooo... are fat people less than human? They can't serve in the military.

How about handicapped people? They can't serve either.
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RevDisk

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2010, 09:37:46 PM »
Sooo... are fat people less than human? They can't serve in the military.

How about handicapped people? They can't serve either.

Sigh.  Being fat is a personal choice or occasionally a medical/genetic condition.  Being handicapped, by definition, means they are physical incapable of doing military work. 

Both of those are physical barriers to military service.  Which is a completely different area.  Or are you trying to say that being gay means a person is physically unable to perform military duties?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2010, 09:39:07 PM »
Yeah, that's a no-go Mr. Rev Disk.  This has nothing to do with folks being "human" or non-persony.  There's no need to inject more emotion into the debate. 
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RevDisk

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2010, 09:41:39 PM »
Yeah, that's a no-go Mr. Rev Disk.  This has nothing to do with folks being "human" or non-persony.  There's no need to inject more emotion into the debate. 

Ok.  Then what does it have to do with?
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French G.

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2010, 10:20:17 PM »
Sooo... are fat people less than human? They can't serve in the military.

How about handicapped people? They can't serve either.

Both those conditions get in the way of doing the military's job of killing some other military. The handicapped thing will change, lots of hardcore folks have lost limbs lately in service and fought to stay in. Personally  I think there would be a certain shock value in knowing your country's crack troops just got overran and decimated by the 69th Armor(Rainbow Warrior) division. :D They may talk funny, but they accessorize their uniforms really well. :D
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makattak

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2010, 10:30:51 PM »
Both those conditions get in the way of doing the military's job of killing some other military.

Huh. Funny that.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

taurusowner

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2010, 10:31:22 PM »
I'd prefer them to be more then decimated.  :cool:

MillCreek

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2010, 11:10:11 PM »
Millcreek,

Nice try with the women/blacks comparison.  'Cause those are such similar issues, right?   ;/

http://www.seattlepi.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?id=2040

You should be sure to let the cartoonist know your opinion on the comments page.  Pay particular attention to the responses to those people who articulated the same comment as you.
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RevDisk

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2010, 11:13:41 PM »
Both those conditions get in the way of doing the military's job of killing some other military. The handicapped thing will change, lots of hardcore folks have lost limbs lately in service and fought to stay in. Personally  I think there would be a certain shock value in knowing your country's crack troops just got overran and decimated by the 69th Armor(Rainbow Warrior) division. :D They may talk funny, but they accessorize their uniforms really well. :D

Didn't General Franks leave part of his leg in Vietnam?  Didn't stop him from invading Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2010, 12:19:56 AM »
Ok.  Then what does it have to do with?

So you acknowledge that the debate has nothing to do with the human-ness or person-ness of homosexuals? 

http://www.seattlepi.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?id=2040

You should be sure to let the cartoonist know your opinion on the comments page.  Pay particular attention to the responses to those people who articulated the same comment as you.

I scanned about two or three dozen comments, didn't see any such response.  Care to summarize?
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roo_ster

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2010, 08:04:18 AM »
...I cannot morally accept treating law-abiding and tax paying US citizens as less than human. 


Well, then, you ought to be fine & dandy with DADT, as everyone in the service is treated as a human.  Well, except the working dogs.

Sigh.  Being fat is a personal choice or occasionally a medical/genetic condition.  Being handicapped, by definition, means they are physical incapable of doing military work.

Being homosexual is also a choice.  I'd like to see someone prove it s not, rather than make unsupported claims*.

The .mil also bars folks with certain mental handicaps from service as well as particular belief systems inimical to .mil service.

The only reason homosexuality gets special treatment is because lefties and so many brainwashed by them have an obsession with sexual liberty uber alles.

"Trash the Constitution, as long as I can get off in the manner I prefer!"



Millcreek, what you have done is properly described as "category error."


Quote
BEDEMIR:  Exactly!  So, logically...,
  VILLAGER #1:  If... she.. weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood.
  BEDEMIR:  And therefore--?
  VILLAGER #1:  A witch!
  CROWD:  A witch!
  BEDEMIR:  We shall use my larger scales!

Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?





* Good luck.  The number & interaction of our genes is such that showing causality for any complex human behavior is beyond our ability.  It would require trillions of humans for a sample size, for one, and that is not the only obstacle.

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Jamisjockey

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Re: Gays in the Military and DADT
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2010, 08:39:46 AM »
DADT is ludicrious.  Especially these days, where homosexuality is considered mainstream and not a big deal by this generation. 
Men and Women already serve together.  There are sexual harrasment rules and fraternization rules that are in place and enforced.  Apply those rules to anyone.  IMHO, it should be against the UCMJ and enforced for any service member to have a relationship with another service member.  I've seen a few careers ended because of inappropriate male/female relationships.  Gays want equality?  Suffer the same consequences for making advances inappropriately.
Those rules would incorporate mainstream homosexuality into the service without a worry. 
JD

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