TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid

[AZRedhawk44]

Chris, with modern forensics at the state they are at, no-knocks out of fear that evidence will be destroyed is ridiculous.

If the police are going to serve CSD's pot growing operation and they do so by knocking on the door and announcing themselves, then they hear the garbage disposal whir up, all they have to do is enter forcibly (a warrant grants this privilege if there is no response to an announcement), stop the disposal process, and test the disposal for residue.  It'll be there, in spades.

The only justified use of a no-knock is in the case of violent kidnappers or hostage takers, or violent terrorists.

No-knocks for drugs?  Blue collar stuff?  SBR/AOW/MG/suppressor/AWB stuff?  No way.  The gun issues aren't illegal in and of themselves... that's essentially tax dodging is all.  Blue collar.  Non-violent.  Drugs?  The evidence will be there when you do a perfectly normal authoritarian and duly processed entry.  Counterfeiting, money laundering, illegal gambling, prostitution and so on?  What serves society better... a john who escapes the raid and continues to pay his income taxes, or a dead john and hooker when the boys in blue get trigger happy?

[KD5NRH]

If the police are going to serve CSD's pot growing operation and they do so by knocking on the door and announcing themselves, then they hear the garbage disposal whir up, all they have to do is enter forcibly (a warrant grants this privilege if there is no response to an announcement), stop the disposal process, and test the disposal for residue.  It'll be there, in spades.

Or they could just wait until they hear the disposal stop and the door opens, wander around for a couple minutes and go home.  Crop is destroyed, grower is out his investment, and nobody's hurt.  Lather rinse repeat just often enough that he's never able to turn a profit, and you stop the problem safely.

[roo_ster]

Or they could just wait until they hear the disposal stop and the door opens, wander around for a couple minutes and go home.  Crop is destroyed, grower is out his investment, and nobody's hurt.  Lather rinse repeat just often enough that he's never able to turn a profit, and you stop the problem safely.

Sorta like the policeman who camps out conspicuously in a school zone.  Folk slow the heck down, the desired outcome.

[T.O.M.]

Okay guys, I misunderstood.   I thought the knock (pun intended) was on the gear.  I agree no knocks are bad legally and in some ways tactically.   Carryon.

[Sindawe]

Or they could just wait until they hear the disposal stop and the door opens, wander around for a couple minutes and go home.  Crop is destroyed, grower is out his investment, and nobody's hurt.  Lather rinse repeat just often enough that he's never able to turn a profit, and you stop the problem safely.

Its not about "stopping the problem" anymore.  It is now about all the assets that can be stolen seized via the doctrine of angels dancing on the head of a pin guilty property.

Not to sound cold hearted or whatnot, but if you randomly kick in a door, you SHOULD expect to be taken under fire by the inhabitants. It's generally a better idea to plug the sewer line and knock on the door

Truth.  And something that SHOULD be taught to all aspiring keepers of the peace.

[Firethorn]

re the pot grow?  he doesn't have to flush equipment  just stash

In this case the 'stash' would be ~12 pot plants of indeterminate age.  Unless they're seedlings you're talking about trying to dispose of a dozen small bushes.

If they're fully mature I question the ability to stuff them down even a professional restaurant grade disposal.

[dogmush]

wait for it



wait for it



Detcord will take care of 12 bushes in under 60 sec.

 

[Devonai]

That reminds me of the movie Conspiracy Theory where Mel Gibson's character had his apartment wired to blow.

[RevDisk]

rookie
restaurant garbage disposal  if they are in small pots i can grind them too .  5 gall buckets not so much  noisy but efficient.

Short of exotics like anhydrous HF or fluorium hexafluorostibanuide (10 quadrillion times stronger than 100% sulfuric acid), most off the shelf solvents will not destroy the evidence before it can be recovered. Plus, it's an additional charge you can hit the pot grower with. Destruction of evidence. If your pot grower DOES have H2FSbF6 or whatnot laying around, pot growing is the least of your concerns.

[KD5NRH]

Short of exotics like anhydrous HF or fluorium hexafluorostibanuide (10 quadrillion times stronger than 100% sulfuric acid), most off the shelf solvents will not destroy the evidence before it can be recovered. Plus, it's an additional charge you can hit the pot grower with. Destruction of evidence. If your pot grower DOES have H2FSbF6 or whatnot laying around, pot growing is the least of your concerns.

If he's playing with that, what are the odds that he'll survive the first attempt to destroy the evidence, even without anybody bothering to enter?

[fifth_column]

Its not about "stopping the problem" anymore.  It is now about all the assets that can be stolen seized via the doctrine of angels dancing on the head of a pin guilty property.

Truth.  And something that SHOULD be taught to all aspiring keepers of the peace.

This.  The war on drugs has become extremely profitable for those waging it.  They have a vested interest in continuing the war indefinitely.  IMO police should have the same goal that doctors should have: the elimination of the need for their presence.

[Tallpine]

This.  The war on drugs has become extremely profitable for those waging it.  They have a vested interest in continuing the war indefinitely.  IMO police should have the same goal that doctors should have: the elimination of the need for their presence.

If the police get more like doctors then they will want an annual search of everyone's house 

[HankB]

To me, "due process" means presentation of a valid warrant, and if a valid warrant is presented, as I see it the person served is obliged to honor it and peacefully comply with it.

If I were ever to serve on a grand jury, I would find it very difficult to indict a person for opening fire on anyone who violently forced entry before presentation of a valid warrant.

[T.O.M.]

To me, "due process" means presentation of a valid warrant, and if a valid warrant is presented, as I see it the person served is obliged to honor it and peacefully comply with it.

If I were ever to serve on a grand jury, I would find it very difficult to indict a person for opening fire on anyone who violently forced entry before presentation of a valid warrant.

@Hank...what would you have the police do if they are standing on the front porch, can see and hear someone moving around inside, and no one answers the door?  Of if upon seeing the officer holding up the warrant, Mr. Homeowner slams and bars the door?  Truly not looking for a fight,  but I am truly curious as to how APS sees a chain of events occuring, from the perfect scenario you describe through forcible entry...

[Tallpine]

@Hank...what would you have the police do if they are standing on the front porch, can see and hear someone moving around inside, and no one answers the door?  Of if upon seeing the officer holding up the warrant, Mr. Homeowner slams and bars the door?  Truly not looking for a fight,  but I am truly curious as to how APS sees a chain of events occuring, from the perfect scenario you describe through forcible entry...

I'm trying to figure out how we ever got to such violence for a non-violent and victimless crime     

Sometimes when you are doing the wrong thing, stopping would be better than doing it harder 

[T.O.M.]

Tallpine, I'm not just talking drug crimes, but in general when trying to serve a search or arrwst warrant.  I often turn to you all for a sense of what "reasonable men/women" think on legal issues.  I find it helpful in my job...

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And wasn't there supposed to be stolen firearms listed on this warrant? Not quite victimless

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[Tallpine]

Tallpine, I'm not just talking drug crimes, but in general when trying to serve a search or arrwst warrant.  I often turn to you all for a sense of what "reasonable men/women" think on legal issues.  I find it helpful in my job...

Well, not making the situation worse ought to be the first rule.

Now, if it's pretty certain the guy is a serial killer likely to kill again real soon, prudence dictates nailing the guy as quickly as possible using whatever means necessary.  Otherwise, breaking down doors and shooting dogs is really just cool toys drama instead of picking them up the next time they run a stop sign, etc.

I have some respect for the sheriff of the neighboring county.  A few years back there was a family shooting in our neighborhood (adult brother shoots/wounds adult sister).  Neither were stellar citizens.  I heard that our own county mounties wanted to go all rambeaux but he said just let him go home and go to sleep and pick him up in the morning - which they did without incident.

[Tallpine]

And wasn't there supposed to be stolen firearms listed on this warrant? Not quite victimless

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"supposed to be" 

[AZRedhawk44]

Tallpine, I'm not just talking drug crimes, but in general when trying to serve a search or arrwst warrant.  I often turn to you all for a sense of what "reasonable men/women" think on legal issues.  I find it helpful in my job...

As the resident APS Anarchist and vitriol-spewer when it comes to cops in general and no-knocks in particular, I think this is obvious:  I'm giving you more ground than Tallpine is.  

Knock, announce, and wait a RESPECTFUL interval for a response as befits the hour.  Serving a warrant at 3AM means you wait up to 5 minutes for someone to put clothes on and stagger to the door. Serving that same warrant at 7PM means you repeat your announcement every 15 seconds or so, until a reasonable period has passed (the only person home could be in the bathroom) or you get obvious, blatant evidence of evidence destruction or attempts to flee apprehension.  

Deliberate attempt to avoid the warrant?  Bust down the door.

But if anyone deliberately attempts to enter my home without announcing they have a warrant, that's why I am armed.  I absolutely will not yield that point, ever.  If society wants to compel me to yield sovereignty of my home to another party, they have to do so by force or by due process.  Due process involves that warrant being served IN A CIVIL MANNER.  Cops who serve no-knocks are on the same field as thugs when it comes to force, and deserve the same end.

[Scout26]

@Hank...what would you have the police do if they are standing on the front porch, can see and hear someone moving around inside, and no one answers the door?  Of if upon seeing the officer holding up the warrant, Mr. Homeowner slams and bars the door?  Truly not looking for a fight,  but I am truly curious as to how APS sees a chain of events occuring, from the perfect scenario you describe through forcible entry...

Bullhorn(s), to announce presence.   High-candlepower/lumen lights to flood the house to get their attention.

As AZ said give them (via announcement) an appropriate amount of time to open the door given the hour.

It's like everyone learned the wrong lessons from Ruby Ridge.  They could have bagged Koresh any number of times he drove into town for this/that and the other thing.  Even the local law enforcement made the offer to the BATFEIO that they would pick him up and hold him for them to question.   No can do.  BATFEIO needed moar $$$ for cool SWAT toys and to show DC that bad, evil guns are out there with bad, evil people and they must be stopped and the only way we can do that is with MOAR.  So instead of everyone saying "We need to find less dramatic ways to put the habeas grabus on those bad actors that don't get a bunch of other folks dead."  Everyone went full retard and started their own inhouse A-Team/Delta Force, with every mall operator tactical ninja gizmo and gadget the give the exploding pants edge.

Where's Andy Griffith when we really need him?

[just Warren]

Keepin' the Negroes out of Mayberry.

[Perd Hapley]

@Hank...what would you have the police do if they are standing on the front porch, can see and hear someone moving around inside, and no one answers the door?  Of if upon seeing the officer holding up the warrant, Mr. Homeowner slams and bars the door?  Truly not looking for a fight,  but I am truly curious as to how APS sees a chain of events occuring, from the perfect scenario you describe through forcible entry...

He said "present" a warrant. He didn't say that the occupant had to read it. If they have the warrant, and knock and wait a reasonable interval, then they would seem to have presented it.

[Tallpine]

It's like everyone learned the wrong lessons from Ruby Ridge.  They could have bagged Koresh any number of times ....

I think you mean "Waco" 

Your point is just as valid regarding RR.  The cops didn't want an arrest - they wanted a slaughter.

[HankB]

@Hank...what would you have the police do if they are standing on the front porch, can see and hear someone moving around inside, and no one answers the door?  Of if upon seeing the officer holding up the warrant, Mr. Homeowner slams and bars the door?  Truly not looking for a fight,  but I am truly curious as to how APS sees a chain of events occuring, from the perfect scenario you describe through forcible entry...

Chris, I would expect the police to knock and LOUDLY announce and wait some reasonable time before forcing entry - not "Policewarrantcrashbangboom!" in the space of a few seconds. (And from what I've read, the "policewarrant" shout sometimes does not precede the "crashbangboom" of the forcible entry.)

And in your second scenario, the police DID hold up the warrant and the homeowner DID see it- in which case, as I stated, the homeowner is, in my opinion, obliged to peacefully comply; slamming and barring the door is not compliance with the valid warrant that was presented, and forcible entry is then justified.

AZR and Scout seem to understand this.

I remember many years ago the police in Chicago were serving a warrant, with a TV crew in tow; between the announcement and the sledgehammers hitting the door, no more than a few seconds elapsed. (This was before battering rams.) The door? They didn't get through it - it was HEAVILY reinforced. After a bit, a little window (like a speakeasy in an old gangster movie opened) and a gentleman peered out, asking what they were doing; the police demanded entry, which was refused UNTIL they found the warrant and held it up to the door so the fellow could read it, whereupon the door was opened.

No contraband was found.