Author Topic: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid  (Read 14688 times)

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2014, 11:09:13 PM »
I remember many years ago the police in Chicago were serving a warrant, with a TV crew in tow; between the announcement and the sledgehammers hitting the door, no more than a few seconds elapsed. (This was before battering rams.) The door? They didn't get through it - it was HEAVILY reinforced. After a bit, a little window (like a speakeasy in an old gangster movie opened) and a gentleman peered out, asking what they were doing; the police demanded entry, which was refused UNTIL they found the warrant and held it up to the door so the fellow could read it, whereupon the door was opened.

No contraband was found.

The thing I think of is that while it varies by drug, generally speaking a dealer is going to have too much product to dispose of without extended work.  And individual might be about to 'flush' his stash, but unless you happen to catch a dealer on a low stock day, they aren't going to be able to flush it.  Of course, generally only dealers are interested in security enough to obtain reinforced doors...

Personally, I'd like to see drugs legalized so that the only 'no-knock' raids are reserved for things like kidnapping, slavery, and terrorism.  Even then, things like denying them supplies - picking them up one by one as they go on grocery runs, denying them supplies and utilities generally works out peacefully.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,918
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2014, 11:42:17 PM »
I thought we solved the "flushing the stash" issue with the mandatory low flow toilets? ???  I can't imagine anything more than a dime bag actually making it down in one go.



In seriousness, Like many folks on here (and in real life) I don't give a damn about pot growers, distributors, and users.  I would much prefer my Law Enforcement to limit kinetic entries to (like deadly force) instances where there is imminent danger of death or serious injury. 

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2014, 12:16:31 AM »
I thought we solved the "flushing the stash" issue with the mandatory low flow toilets? ???  I can't imagine anything more than a dime bag actually making it down in one go.

That's where getting a toilet with a high MaP score would come in.  My 'low flow' toilet that I bought ~3 years ago flushes far better than the old high flow one in the other bathroom.  Mine is rated in the ~900s, or over 30 ounces of soybean paste and TP.  Can't say for drugs, but I figure you can dump in enough to just bury the trap and be just fine.

As a bonus, less water per flush means you can flush faster. 

Quote
In seriousness, Like many folks on here (and in real life) I don't give a damn about pot growers, distributors, and users.  I would much prefer my Law Enforcement to limit kinetic entries to (like deadly force) instances where there is imminent danger of death or serious injury. 

Yep.  The above is my 'problem solving' nature treating the exercise as a puzzle.  Another option up north might be a high-efficiency wood furnace you keep hot.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,296
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2014, 10:19:15 AM »
Not to sound cold hearted or whatnot, but if you randomly kick in a door, you SHOULD expect to be taken under fire by the inhabitants. It's generally a better idea to plug the sewer line and knock on the door.

^^^ This. No knock warrants should not be allowed for anything other than the apprehension of known-violent felons. And the difference between a no-knock entry and a knock-three-times-and whisper-"POLICE!"-as-fast-as-you-can entry is so technical as to be no difference at all. Both totally miss the point of having a warrant, which is to have a piece of paper to show the property owner or occupant that says, "Let these officers into your premises."

Quote
"It need not have happened. They could have walked up to his house in the daylight and he would have let him in or they could have stopped him as he left his house to go to the store," said DeGuerin.

Quoted for [obvious] truth.

Quote
The District Attorney's office released a statement saying,

"The Burleson County Sheriff's Office would not have been there that day if Mr. Magee had not decided to live a lifestyle of doing and producing illegal drugs in his home. Therefore, we will fully prosecute the drug charges against him."

They also would not have been there that night if they hadn't decided it's more fun to roust people when they're asleep rather than to act like civilized representatives of a civilized legal system.

Quote
Burleson County District Attorney Julie Renken wouldn't say if she'll present the case again to a different grand jury.

If the prosecutor is allowed to keep shopping for a cooperative jury, that's just plan wrong. There should be only one "bite of the apple."
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2014, 03:41:21 AM »
They also would not have been there that night if they hadn't decided it's more fun to roust people when they're asleep rather than to act like civilized representatives of a civilized legal system.

That said that they're going to press charges against him for the drugs they found; not for the 'murder' of the police officer.  While I disagree with the WoD, I certainly acknowledge that it exists and the dude violated them.  Acceptable.

What isn't acceptable is the prosecutor continuing to shop for a jury that will vote her way.

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2014, 08:15:10 AM »
I have to go with the seeming majority here.

Knock, announce, wait a reasonable time, produce warrant. Bust down door only with a good reason. The whole no knock thing is getting, and has been for awhile, asinine.

Sent via tapatalk
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2014, 10:47:31 AM »
I have to go with the seeming majority here.

Knock, announce, wait a reasonable time, produce warrant. Bust down door only with a good reason. The whole no knock thing is getting, and has been for awhile, asinine.

Sent via tapatalk

Suspected drugs are never a good reason.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2014, 12:04:23 PM »
Outside of hostage situations and possibly when there is reliable intel (ie not some guy you just arrested trying to narc some time off) that there will be armed resistance to an arrest warrant, no knocks are never justified.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2014, 12:47:13 PM »
Quote
I thought we solved the "flushing the stash" issue with the mandatory low flow toilets?

I installed one a month ago in my house that has something like "Will flush a bucket of golf balls in one flush" printed on the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaWDH16SqVs

Still not an excuse for a no-knock warrant.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2014, 01:39:51 PM »
I installed one a month ago in my house that has something like "Will flush a bucket of golf balls in one flush" printed on the box.

That must have hurt  :O
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,787
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2014, 05:57:08 PM »
That said that they're going to press charges against him for the drugs they found; not for the 'murder' of the police officer.  While I disagree with the WoD, I certainly acknowledge that it exists and the dude violated them.  Acceptable.

What isn't acceptable is the prosecutor continuing to shop for a jury that will vote her way.
Not sure how you limit grand jury attempts.  They aren't a trial so double jeapardy doesn't apply.  Without the grand jury filter, the prosecutor would have already done it though. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2014, 05:58:01 PM »
Not sure how you limit grand jury attempts.  They aren't a trial so double jeapardy doesn't apply.  Without the grand jury filter, the prosecutor would have already done it though. 

Make jeopardy attach when presenting to a grand jury. Done.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2014, 06:02:35 PM »
Make jeopardy attach when presenting to a grand jury. Done.

direct indictment
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2014, 06:04:27 PM »
direct indictment

I can't claim to be an expert, but isn't the entire point of states that have grand jury systems to prevent the use of those? I thought it was either/or not both/and. But I admit I don't know.

Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2014, 06:14:17 PM »
I can't claim to be an expert, but isn't the entire point of states that have grand jury systems to prevent the use of those? I thought it was either/or not both/and. But I admit I don't know.



not sure either  i know in some states at least there is both
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2014, 04:53:57 AM »
not sure either  i know in some states at least there is both

Florida, for example, but we've already seen what happens when you bypass the grand jury there.

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2014, 09:54:05 AM »
Not sure how you limit grand jury attempts.  They aren't a trial so double jeapardy doesn't apply.  Without the grand jury filter, the prosecutor would have already done it though.

After the first GJ hearing, the second should have a simple choice; indict the accused for the stated crime or the prosecutor for harassment.

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2014, 09:59:35 AM »
After the first GJ hearing, the second should have a simple choice; indict the accused for the stated crime or the prosecutor for harassment.

Why should those be exclusive choices?

The Texans here can correct me but it is my understanding that in a killing Texas law requires a GJ. I don't know about other crimes but didn't the AG in Texas have to go through 5-6 grand juries to get an indictment on Tom Delay?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2014, 11:28:19 AM »
The Texans here can correct me but it is my understanding that in a killing Texas law requires a GJ.

Only one.

Quote
I don't know about other crimes but didn't the AG in Texas have to go through 5-6 grand juries to get an indictment on Tom Delay?

Nothing's perfect, but I'd rather err on the side of failing to indict a guilty man than destroying an innocent one with the cost and stigma of a drawn out trial.

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,408
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2014, 12:23:50 PM »
The concept of the grand jury is to have the decision as to whether or not charges are filed in the hands of "the people" and not an individual.  Ideally, it takes the power out of the prosecutor's hands to prevent abuse of that power.  In my experience as someone who presented to grand juries for several years, the problem with the grand jury process these days in much the same as many parts of "the system," which is apathy of the citizens.  People don't want to commit their time and effort to being a part of the grand jury.  in my jurisdiction, it is a commitment for every Thursday for three months.  Some employers won't allow that, Those who do don't want to do any work beyond sitting in the chair, listening, and voting.  The vast majority are content to sit back, listen to what the prosecutor presents, and call it done.

on the issue of jeopardy attaching when the grand jury starts, I'd say that is not a good idea.  Under the law now, jeopardy doesn't attach until the first witness is sworn in, or the jury is impaneled (depending on the jurisdiction and circumstances).  I've presented a couple of cases where there the matter was "no billed."  Additional investigation turned up additional evidence, and upon second presentation, an indictment was returned.  Don't want to have a case considered legally dead because it was presented too soon, or have later important evidence found and it essentially be useless.  Also, in order to enforce such a thing, you would have to remove the secrecy of the grand jury proceedings.  Otherwise, how would you know if a case had or had not been presented to the grand jury.  And, if you remove the secrecy, think about the problems in having grand jury investigations open as public record...A thorough background check would turn up that "John Smith was investigated by the grand jury several times for molesting the neighborhood dogs and cats.'  That could be rather damning for Mr. Smith in his efforts to find a job.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2014, 12:40:09 PM »
on the issue of jeopardy attaching when the grand jury starts, I'd say that is not a good idea.  Under the law now, jeopardy doesn't attach until the first witness is sworn in, or the jury is impaneled (depending on the jurisdiction and circumstances).  I've presented a couple of cases where there the matter was "no billed."  Additional investigation turned up additional evidence, and upon second presentation, an indictment was returned.  Don't want to have a case considered legally dead because it was presented too soon, or have later important evidence found and it essentially be useless.

Wouldn't that be an incentive for a prosecutor to not present a case based on insufficient evidence in the first place?


Quote
  Also, in order to enforce such a thing, you would have to remove the secrecy of the grand jury proceedings.  Otherwise, how would you know if a case had or had not been presented to the grand jury.  And, if you remove the secrecy, think about the problems in having grand jury investigations open as public record...A thorough background check would turn up that "John Smith was investigated by the grand jury several times for molesting the neighborhood dogs and cats.'  That could be rather damning for Mr. Smith in his efforts to find a job.

I'm kind of confused by this. Prosecutor presents to GJ. GJ returns no bill or true bill. Those results are public record, right? Otherwise how would we be reading this story?  ??? Not arguing with you I just don't understand this process.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,408
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2014, 12:47:16 PM »

I'm kind of confused by this. Prosecutor presents to GJ. GJ returns no bill or true bill. Those results are public record, right? Otherwise how would we be reading this story?  ??? Not arguing with you I just don't understand this process.

No.  A no bill is not a public record.  Speaking only of Ohio (which is where I practice), the only records from a Grand Jury is the indictments which were handed down. in fact, when a case was No Billed, office policy was for me/the presenting prosecutor to immediately shred all of the documents relating to that presentation to the grand jury...subpoenas, voting ballots, the drafted indictment.  If you created a jeopardy situation upon presentation to the Grand Jury, there would have to be some record kept of the No Bills as well, so that you would have records to show that the Grand Jury jeopardy attached.  These would undoubtedly become public records, and thus could be reviewed during a background check.  As it is now, absent an indictment, there is no record to show that a case was ever investigated or presented about a person.  Not sure how the information got out in this case, unless the prosecutor divulged that information, which is a very dangerous thing to do (potential liability issues).  The "defendant" could say that as much as he wanted, if he or his attorney was given the information.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2014, 12:50:05 PM »
Very interesting, I didn't know that. Thanks.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,651
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2014, 12:50:24 PM »
. . . I don't know about other crimes but didn't the AG in Texas have to go through 5-6 grand juries to get an indictment on Tom Delay?
Not certain if the number is correct, but I'm pretty sure it took multiple attempts for the DA to secure an indictment. In fact, there have been a number of cases (particularly in Travis County) where several GJs had to be convened before an indictment was handed down - usually the DA's politics were the driving factor. Some pundits said that with enough time and effort, a DA could indict a ham sandwich in Travis County.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,408
Re: TX man no-billed for shooting cop in no knock raid
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2014, 12:51:42 PM »
Wouldn't that be an incentive for a prosecutor to not present a case based on insufficient evidence in the first place?


Oh, and in some situations, as a prosecutor you need to present a case to the grand jury even if you don't think it is fully prepared.  If a person is arrested and jailed, they have a right to have the case presented to the Grand Jury within a set period of time.  Other times, you want to put evidence "on record," or "ask" the grand jury to subpoena records to assist the investigation along, which gets the case put on the schedule.  And, on occasion, evidence turns up later that no one could have foreseen.  I know of a molestation case where the matter was no billed, and several months later, a new victim came forward who was also a witness to what happened with the first victim.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark