Author Topic: Delusions of the Pope  (Read 12012 times)

makattak

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2015, 08:59:31 AM »
??????  Where does Amendment I say state governments can refuse to exercise legislated functions on religious grounds???  It seems to say the opposite if anything.

I'm curious as to what argument you think applies about article VI.  There doesn't appear to be any religious requirement to hold the job of issuing marriage licenses.

In our system of government, the government is constrained from religious establishment. PEOPLE are, therefore, free to follow their conscience within the law. That whole "shall make no law... prohibiting the free exercise thereof." PEOPLE are, by our Constitution, free to act in accordance with their religion.

And, if you will be jailed for following your conscience that says you cannot endorse a sinful union, you've created a religious test. "You can't hold this office if believe homosexuality is a sin and will follow the dictates of your conscience in condemning sin." Or, "Christians need not apply."
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

De Selby

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2015, 09:10:27 AM »

In our system of government, the government is constrained from religious establishment. PEOPLE are, therefore, free to follow their conscience within the law. That whole "shall make no law... prohibiting the free exercise thereof." PEOPLE are, by our Constitution, free to act in accordance with their religion.

And, if you will be jailed for following your conscience that says you cannot endorse a sinful union, you've created a religious test. "You can't hold this office if believe homosexuality is a sin and will follow the dictates of your conscience in condemning sin." Or, "Christians need not apply."

Wait a second there - how does an individual's unwillingness to endorse something grant them as a government agent a legal power to refuse an application???

The court order didn't say she needed to vacate the office.  It recognised that she didn't have any legal authority to deny licenses.  Personal beliefs can't invent government powers out of thin air - if I ask the government for a drivers license and the law says they have to give me one, the beliefs of the person at the counter don't and can't change that.  They are an agent of the government - they can have no more power to refuse than the law grants the government.
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charby

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2015, 09:33:39 AM »
Article VI of the Constitution. Amendment I of the Constitution.

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All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


So tell me again where it says a person can claim that their religious belief allows them to legally break the law on religious grounds?

Her personal choice of religion (and practice of) was not prohibited, but she also gave an oath of office as an elected official to follow the laws.

The oath:

Quote
Oath of clerk and deputies:

Every clerk and deputy, in addition to the oath prescribed by Section 228 of the Constitution, shall, before entering on the duties of his office, take the following oath in presence of the Circuit Court:

“I, _____, do swear that I will well and truly discharge the duties of the office of _____ County Circuit Court clerk, according to the best of my skill and judgment, making the due entries and records of all orders, judgments, decrees, opinions and proceedings of the court, and carefully filing and preserving in my office all books and papers which come to my possession by virtue of my office; and that I will not knowingly or willingly commit any malfeasance of office, and will faithfully execute the duties of my office without favor, affection or partiality, so help me God.”
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roo_ster

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2015, 09:40:49 AM »
Where in the Constitution is unlawful to be homosexual or where does it allow an elected official to refuse to their job for religious reasons?

COTUS doesn't have to say "boo" about it, since the federales are supposed to stay out of the area of common law crime, that being a sphere reserved to the states.  The better question is, "Where in the COTUS does it say that the federales can interfere with the states' common law systems?"

FTR, homosexual activity has been subject to sanction in the common law since the beginnings of common law:
Quote from: Chief Justice Warren E. Burger
BURGER, C.J., Concurring Opinion

CHIEF JUSTICE BURGER, concurring.

I join the Court's opinion, but I write separately to underscore my view that, in constitutional terms, there is no such thing as a fundamental right to commit homosexual sodomy.

As the Court notes, ante at 192, the proscriptions against sodomy have very "ancient roots." Decisions of individuals relating to homosexual conduct have been subject to state intervention throughout the history of Western civilization. Condemnation of those practices is firmly rooted in Judeo-Christian moral and ethical standards. Homosexual sodomy was a capital crime under Roman law. See Code Theod. 9.7.6; Code Just. 9.9.31. See also D. Bailey, Homosexuality [p197] and the Western Christian Tradition 70-81 (1975). During the English Reformation, when powers of the ecclesiastical courts were transferred to the King's Courts, the first English statute criminalizing sodomy was passed. 25 Hen. VIII, ch. 6. Blackstone described "the infamous crime against nature" as an offense of "deeper malignity" than rape, a heinous act "the very mention of which is a disgrace to human nature," and "a crime not fit to be named." 4 W. Blackstone, Commentaries *215. The common law of England, including its prohibition of sodomy, became the received law of Georgia and the other Colonies. In 1816, the Georgia Legislature passed the statute at issue here, and that statute has been continuously in force in one form or another since that time. To hold that the act of homosexual sodomy is somehow protected as a fundamental right would be to cast aside millennia of moral teaching.

This is essentially not a question of personal "preferences," but rather of the legislative authority of the State. I find nothing in the Constitution depriving a State of the power to enact the statute challenged here.

One thing that continually fascinates me is how detailed the descriptions of LGBT sex acts used by the opponents of LGBT are.

What continually fascinates me is how the proponents of unreason avoid dealing with the facts of the matter at hand, from the distasteful facts of homosexual sodomy, to the increased rate of sexual assault of minors by the LGBTBBQ sorts, to the deleterious effects of that lifestyle on its practitioners.

Wow.  I suppose that's why constitutional rights are important - so we can't treat people like that.

We have a COTUS to reign in the power of fed.gov.  All else is secondary and left to the states.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

charby

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2015, 10:24:09 AM »
COTUS doesn't have to say "boo" about it, since the federales are supposed to stay out of the area of common law crime, that being a sphere reserved to the states.  The better question is, "Where in the COTUS does it say that the federales can interfere with the states' common law systems?"

I would say we all benefited from a little federales action here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

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makattak

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2015, 10:32:54 AM »

So tell me again where it says a person can claim that their religious belief allows them to legally break the law on religious grounds?

Her personal choice of religion (and practice of) was not prohibited, but she also gave an oath of office as an elected official to follow the laws.

The oath:


Let's grant she didn't fulfill her oath of office (I, of course, don't think that is the case, but we'll go with that for now). What's the proper method for dealing with an elected official breaking their oath to faithfully execute their duties?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

charby

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2015, 10:49:26 AM »
Let's grant she didn't fulfill her oath of office (I, of course, don't think that is the case, but we'll go with that for now). What's the proper method for dealing with an elected official breaking their oath to faithfully execute their duties?

Impeachment, removal from office or jail time for contempt of court.
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makattak

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2015, 10:58:55 AM »
Impeachment, removal from office or jail time for contempt of court.

Oh, the Judiciary is the enforcer of the laws?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Perd Hapley

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2015, 11:00:24 AM »
Personal beliefs can't invent government powers out of thin air...


It's working pretty well for the same-sex marriage crazies.
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makattak

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2015, 11:02:19 AM »

It's working pretty well for the same-sex marriage crazies.

ZING! lol
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

charby

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2015, 11:10:37 AM »
Oh, the Judiciary is the enforcer of the laws?

That was what they found she was "guilty" of.

What if a sheriff refused to issue carry permits in a shall issue state because they felt people should not have them? Would you want them to go to jail for contempt of court?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 11:35:29 AM by charby »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2015, 11:14:11 AM »
That was what they found she was "guilty" of.

What if a sheriff refused to issue carry permits in a shall issue state because they felt people should not have them? Would you want them to go to jail for contempt of court?


The comparison would work if, say, potatoes were applying for carry permits.


To return to the OP for a minute, is there still some doubt about Davis meeting with el Jefe, or has that moved into the realm of conspiracy-mongering?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 11:35:44 AM by charby »
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vaskidmark

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2015, 12:01:50 PM »
Oh, the Judiciary is the enforcer of the laws?

Nonfeasance is a crime.  So are mis- and malfeasance.

So, yes.

Then there are the laws regarding fraud.  Taking money and not providing the good or service paid for.

So, yes.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

charby

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2015, 12:05:15 PM »

To return to the OP for a minute, is there still some doubt about Davis meeting with el Jefe, or has that moved into the realm of conspiracy-mongering?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/10/02/445236066/vatican-details-pope-s-meeting-with-kentucky-clerk-kim-davis
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charby

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2015, 12:07:06 PM »

The comparison would work if, say, potatoes were applying for carry permits.

Ok an elected Jewish County Recorder (or whatever) refusing to sign a health/food permit for a BBQ place that serves pork because they felt eating of pork is against their religious beliefs.
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makattak

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2015, 01:38:23 PM »
Nonfeasance is a crime.  So are mis- and malfeasance.

So, yes.

Then there are the laws regarding fraud.  Taking money and not providing the good or service paid for.

So, yes.

stay safe.

Ah, good. So she was arrested for malfeasance, misfeasance, or nonfeasance and fraud, then?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

TommyGunn

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2015, 02:35:18 PM »
Wait a second there - how does an individual's unwillingness to endorse something grant them as a government agent a legal power to refuse an application???

The court order didn't say she needed to vacate the office.  It recognised that she didn't have any legal authority to deny licenses.  Personal beliefs can't invent government powers out of thin air - if I ask the government for a drivers license and the law says they have to give me one, the beliefs of the person at the counter don't and can't change that.  They are an agent of the government - they can have no more power to refuse than the law grants the government.

DeSelby, you REALLY need to speak to certain New York City police precincts about their unwillingness to issue applications for concealed carry permits despite being under court order to do so ..... [popcorn]
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charby

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2015, 03:01:15 PM »
DeSelby, you REALLY need to speak to certain New York City police precincts about their unwillingness to issue applications for concealed carry permits despite being under court order to do so ..... [popcorn]

If I was in charge in NYC, I'll pull a Will Darnell (Bob Prosky) from Christine.



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You're on probation... you get it? You screw around with me once, I don't care how much money you paid up in front, I'll throw you out on your ass! Now you got it? HUH?

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makattak

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2015, 03:08:59 PM »
That was what they found she was "guilty" of.

What if a sheriff refused to issue carry permits in a shall issue state because they felt people should not have them? Would you want them to go to jail for contempt of court?

Hey, I got one: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/oregon-college-shooting/oregon-shooting-sheriff-john-hanlin-opponent-gun-control-n437336

Quote
Hanlin sent his letter to Biden in 2013, saying he and his deputies would refuse to enforce new gun-control restrictions "offending the constitutional rights of my citizens."

Here's a sheriff who has already made clear he will refuse to enforce laws he doesn't like. Should we throw him in jail, too?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

grampster

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2015, 03:25:57 PM »
Reality and rule of law is on the downslide in America.
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charby

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2015, 03:52:17 PM »
Hey, I got one: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/oregon-college-shooting/oregon-shooting-sheriff-john-hanlin-opponent-gun-control-n437336

Here's a sheriff who has already made clear he will refuse to enforce laws he doesn't like. Should we throw him in jail, too?

Doesn't matter the law, if they took an oath office and refuse to follow/enforce laws they don't agree with, they should be held accountable to them. Now if they don't particularly like a law or set od laws, the should be advocate for change, either by lobbying the legislature or through their professional society.
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Scout26

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2015, 05:20:48 PM »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

vaskidmark

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2015, 07:00:25 PM »
Ah, good. So she was arrested for malfeasance, misfeasance, or nonfeasance and fraud, then?

You know damn well that she was arrested for contempt of court.

The judge told her to do her job, which she was not doing (nonfeasance).  She refused to do as ordered.

But yes, an alternative would have been for the elected county prosecutor to charge her with nonfeasance and get a slam-dunk win (that would have ended his political career).  Or charge her with fraud for taking pay while not performing the work she was being paid to do.

Not wishing to have the thread locked down I will refrain from commenting on the tack you are trying to take.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2015, 07:54:25 PM »
Doesn't matter the law, if they took an oath office and refuse to follow/enforce laws they don't agree with, they should be held accountable to them. Now if they don't particularly like a law or set od laws, the should be advocate for change, either by lobbying the legislature or through their professional society.

In this case they were upholding the law. Not abiding by a judges ruling is what got em gigged. In fact the legislation is still there


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

De Selby

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Re: Delusions of the Pope
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2015, 08:10:48 PM »
In this case they were upholding the law. Not abiding by a judges ruling is what got em gigged. In fact the legislation is still there


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That's a silly argument in a federal system like ours.

There is a federal bill of rights that gives the Feds powers to enforce individual rights protections.  The constitution is not just a restraint on federal power - it also explicitly deprives States of power, including the power to withhold equal protection of the law.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."