Poll

Was the DPD legally justified in using deadly force, via the explosive, on the shooter?

Yes
25 (55.6%)
No
17 (37.8%)
What?
3 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Author Topic: Bots, bombs, and use of force.  (Read 9433 times)

Fly320s

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Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« on: July 10, 2016, 09:52:15 AM »
So, as you probably know, the Dallas PD used one of their bomb-bots to blow-up the shooter.  Not all of the details are available, but I will offer my opinion anyway.

As for the poll, based on what you know now, was the DPD legally justified in using deadly force, via the explosive, on the shooter?

My answer is "no" because the shooter was not a current threat at the time.  The use of force continuum says that force must be proportional to the threat.  According to the news, the shooter was holed-up in the building and not actively threatening anyone.

From a personal perspective, I am very happy the DPD blew that guy into little pieces.  Using explosives strapped to a robot makes it even more betterer.
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Mannlicher

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2016, 09:59:43 AM »
a really, really silly question.  If the decision was made to stop his aggression by using deadly force, what difference does it make whether or not it was a bullet or a bomb?  Mission accomplished.

cordex

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2016, 10:11:02 AM »
Silly or not, I remain uncomfortable with police use of explosives as deadly force.  No problem with the robot side of things.  Nor with their application of deadly force against an armed, barricaded subject who had just shot a bunch  of folks and killed a heaping handful of them and for hours during negotiations expressed his desire to kill more and unwillingness to give up.

Ron

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2016, 10:25:51 AM »
This does seem like a logical extension of having a militarized police force.

Combined with the Presidents push to have more Federal intrusion and control of policing this seems to be a dangerous trend.

A Federally controlled Military Police Force, aka standing army, in every neighborhood, for our safety  :police:

What could go wrong with that  :facepalm:  

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dogmush

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2016, 10:29:03 AM »
So from bombs are we going to frags and mortars? Maybe some HEDP in a surplus 203?

Weapons of war have no place on our streets. Right? I am not comfortable with this extension of police tactics regardless of how much this individual may have needed to die.

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2016, 10:41:59 AM »
Yup this seems like an excessive escalation of force.  How long before they start using this as an excuse to use explosives for high risk raids?  Flashbang crib baby anyone?  Just wait till they're tossing Forty mike mike rounds through windows.
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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2016, 10:49:24 AM »
Okay, then we'll make it policy that all situations like this must begin with a card and flowers. If that doesn't work, step two is chocolates and a day at the spa. After that, slightly terse words, said firmly and with conviction. Minimum use of force, right... ?

This is the same argument used by the  "Why didn't you just shoot him in the leg!" crowd. The guy was confirmed as the shooter. He was holed up in place with no intent of leaving. There was no way to get him out using officers that wouldn't endanger more lives. They used means at their disposal to end a bad situation that had every indication of becoming worse. I say good call.

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Ron

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2016, 10:50:25 AM »
Next the police will monitor ghetto neighborhoods with armed drones outfitted with FLIR.

The police will get some surplus armored up Humvees for patrol.

Bigger depts will get their own Littlebirds with FLIR and chainguns for fast insertion and close air support.

It's for our own officer safety!
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Ben

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2016, 10:59:33 AM »
I'm conflicted on it. I don't know how isolated the area was. If the shooter was completely isolated and there was no danger to others, maybe it was the most expeditious move, and in my perfect world, the cops would know to resort to something like this as a last measure.

In the real world, I agree with the other posts above that this kind of thing militarizes the police, including the accompanying mindset. How long before "no knocks" are performed by Mr Splodey Robot? Wouldn't that be the safest way for the cops to do a no knock (for them)? Their rational would be that they have to break down the door anyway, so why put a cop at risk? Heck, then send in Mr Flashbang Robot, or Mr Auto-targeting Sentry Gun Robot. That way everybody goes home at night (at least on one side).
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lupinus

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2016, 11:07:05 AM »
Police use of deadly force should only be used when there is an immediate need to protect themselves or others. Police will of course find themselves in that situation more often, and it may be  easier to justify that criteria, than the average citizen. But the basic concept remains the same IMO.

If you can send in a robot with an explosive because someone is holed up, or rig up an improvised incendiary device and drop it on a building from a helicopter, that does not meet that criteria and is descending further down a slippery slope than I for one am okie dooky with.
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Triphammer

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2016, 11:40:53 AM »
Given the circumstances, it probably did less damage than burning down the compound hotel or even an isolated cabin.

Fly320s

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2016, 11:50:57 AM »
a really, really silly question.  If the decision was made to stop his aggression by using deadly force, what difference does it make whether or not it was a bullet or a bomb?  Mission accomplished.

Just to be clear, I am asking about the use of force, not the use of the exlosive. In other words, if the cops had gone in and shot the guy after the standoff, would that be a legitimate use of force?
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lupinus

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2016, 12:08:06 PM »
Just to be clear, I am asking about the use of force, not the use of the exlosive. In other words, if the cops had gone in and shot the guy after the standoff, would that be a legitimate use of force?
If they waltzed in and shot the guy? No.

If they forced their way in and he resisted to the point they had to shoot him to protect themselves? Of course.


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Hawkmoon

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2016, 12:59:18 PM »
Okay, then we'll make it policy that all situations like this must begin with a card and flowers. If that doesn't work, step two is chocolates and a day at the spa. After that, slightly terse words, said firmly and with conviction. Minimum use of force, right... ?

There have been numerous standoff negotiations that have gone on for days. This one only went for a few hours before they blew him up. This is more like the case in California (?) a year or two ago where the police had cornered a cop killer in a cabin (not his, FWIW) and they just burned it down around him rather than wait him out. Basically, this wasn't (IMHO) a legitimate use of force. I doubt they would have used the same tactic if the fugitive had been a bank robber, a serial rapist, or even someone who had killed a "civilian." This was a case of the police wanting to get a guy who had killed some of their own.

I understand the feeling, but I can't sympathize with it. A badge is not a license to become an executioner if the subject happens to have killed someone wearing another badge. If you can't remain objective ... don't become a cop.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2016, 01:16:04 PM »
I don't like the precedent that has been set with this one.

I also don't care for the argument of officer safety under this criteria. Deadly force should be last resort. Their goal should always be to bring the guy in alive. Yes, it would have involved a lot more danger to the officers to go in and get him, rather than blow his butt up and, yes, I'm betting this bad guy would have died anyway because they would have been forced to shoot him, and I'm fully aware that the higher probability of another officer getting hurt or killed if they'd done it that way.
However, that is their job and if they wanted a safe job they should have become librarians.

I know I come off as harsh, especially considering that I think death by bomb bot was a good end to an evil man, but this feels too much like the DPD took on the roles of judge, jury and executioner and that scares me.
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RocketMan

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2016, 01:22:40 PM »
Pretty much what Hawk and BSL said.  The cops went too far, again.  They had a cool toy to play with, and using it would get them home a lot sooner that day.  No overtime.  They were too lazy to wait the guy out.
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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2016, 01:35:47 PM »
The last three posts cover a lot of my thoughts on the situation.  I think a bullet is a bomb is an airstrike if lethal force is justified.  A lot of the news articles justifying the decision have pushed that same argument.  But they all skim over that pesky little "if."  I'm not sure sniping him would have been justified in this situation either.  He was contained and he wasn't an active threat to anyone.    Give him a few hours to get tired and hungry and he might have been a lot more amendable to surrendering.

Angel Eyes

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2016, 03:26:54 PM »
No problem with the robot side of things.

#RobotLivesMatter


While I don't have a problem with the use of a bomb in this particular case, I do agree it sets a dangerous precedent for future police encounters.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2016, 03:31:12 PM »
I see both sides of it.

Mostly I think that he wanted to start a scheissensturm and he got it.

I get the concerns over due process and "using a robot" (100% manually controlled bomb squad unit) but the level of hand-wringing in the articles is more akin to if the guy got away, the DPD located him a week later, and then killed him unannounced with a bomb or a quadcopter and a chunk of C4 etc.

Most of you know I'm pretty radical Libertarian/AnCap myself, but if I were tasked with securing him in that standoff, after several hours, and his repeated statements he intends to kill as many of us as possible on the way out, I'd have just blown him up too.

I dislike the trend everywhere on the internet to Monday Morning Quarterback people in extreme circumstances.

I also think the Right or Libertarians ought to be careful how we hitch our horses to BLM situations, because we all damn well know that if we could magically snap our fingers and make America "the way it ought to be" overnight, in regards to taxes, the government, the welfare state etc. with self-defense and RKBA sacrosanct, hundreds, if not thousands of times more black people who are currently heavily dependant on the state would be killed in the turmoil of the "adjustment period".
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2016, 03:33:30 PM »
While I don't agree with the underlying sentiment, this gave me a chuckle:


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seeker_two

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Re:
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2016, 04:02:13 PM »
I'm not concerned about its use this time. The situation called for desperate measures.

I'm more concerned about the NEXT time it's used.....
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BReilley

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2016, 04:07:03 PM »
War is just police violence outside of the belligerents' own borders, and it's been said by many(and readily observable) that foreign wars are essentially training for domestic tyranny.  UAVs go overseas, a few decades later they come home.  Extrajudicial(due-process-free) targeted killing of citizens in foreign countries?  Now it's kosher here.  Excuse this kind of action in the name of officer safety or whatever you want to call it, but like it or not they got away with it here so you can expect to see it a lot more in the future.

Regarding the "weapons of war" distinction, I firmly believe that such a label is misleading and inappropriate.  There are no weapons of war and no weapons of peace, only weapons of differing scale.  As weapons increase in effect, their use becomes more and more difficult to morally justify as defensive.  Explosives are a step up in scale, which is probably one reason many here would have a problem with cops using them.

The other factor which should make you itch is the removal of personal risk to cops.  We have seen over and over that making things safer for police inevitably results in more widespread use.  SWAT teams with huge budgets, serious weapons, tanks etc reduce cops' risk of bodily harm.  80,000 raids a year and climbing, for ever-smaller "crimes".  Sovereign and qualified immunity, jury-stacking and judicial collusion and a sycophantic media and public insulate against legal and financial responsibility.  Cops now are trained to act more aggressively(often first in the military, then in the academy) and now can pretty much kill at will without fear of any liability - and they are agitating for MORE protection(restrictions on releasing the names of cops who kill, police bills of rights, etc).
This even shows up in the mundane: photo radar and red-light cameras are free money for departments and cities, so they find their way into more and more places - and they're often not predatory enough to suit the moochers: stories abound of cities shortening yellow-light intervals in order to increase "violations".

Remember the video of the cop breaking the autistic kid's arm to get him off the schoolbus when he wouldn't stop screaming?  How about the cop who responded to a backup call for help restraining a guy who was siezing or having some sort of mental brrakdown, said "I don't have time for this" and fatally shot him in the chest?  I don't see this as essentially different(although I understand that the Dallas shooter was competent and armed).  It's violence as a measure of expedience, not a last resort.  If you're not willing to assume some risk as a cop, either go home and apply for a real job or have the honesty to drop the hard-ass supercitizen attitude.  Policing SHOULD be dangerous.

Give this a pass in Dallas, and you invite it into your city.

MikeB

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2016, 04:24:39 PM »
Part of the decision may have been that he was claiming to have explosives planted around, and they may have feared him having the ability to detonate them. I'm sort of inclined to give them this one, but it scares me.

Their have been a lot of incidents of cops killing people unnecessarily and getting away with it. I don't think this is a black/white thing and I think the BLM crowd mostly picks bad examples and would be more effective if they just concentrated on bad use of force instead of trying to make it a racial thing. Often you hear the "They want to go home at night." justification. I fear the use of explosives in this way may lead to even more bad decisions by our government officials.

Ron

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2016, 04:46:38 PM »
We're doomed.

When even the folks at APS are so afraid that they will assent to the militarization of civilian law enforcement you know liberty is toast.

I can't believe you guys are OK with civilian law enforcement blowing up and burning down *expletive deleted*it, especially with the express purpose of killing somebody!
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White Horseradish

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Re: Bots, bombs, and use of force.
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2016, 05:38:59 PM »
The nice thing here is that they didn't take out an entire city block, like they did in Philadelphia in 85.



Perhaps they will progress to more better destruction when they switch to aerial drones.
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