Red Light Cameras

[zxcvbob]

I think I got tagged running a red light tonight.  I was driving about 20 MPH in a 30 zone because the road was covered in ice and the city hadn't sanded it.  I come up to the last traffic light before my house and the light turned yellow just as I got to it. There was one car stopped at the intersection and nobody coming, so I decided it was safer to roll thru that to try to stop or speed up and possibly skid into the other car.  The light was still yellow when I enter the intersection, but because I was going slow I didn't clear it and I saw a little *flash* maybe 1/10 second after the light turned red. :cuss:

Reading up on it, the Minnesota Supreme Court ruled in 2007 that the red light cameras were unconstitutional. (I'm in Minnesota)  But they've had 3 years since then to maybe work out the details... 

If I do get a ticket I'm planning to challenge it; blame the city for not sanding the intersections.  But I don't know if you even can challenge these things.  I believe they issue the ticket to the vehicle itself rather than the driver; kind of like civil forfeiture laws where they "arrest" the money, and money is not guaranteed a right to due process, etc.

I may need to invest in a paintball gun in the near future.

[thebaldguy]

I think they got rid of these in Minnesota as they were ruled unconstitutional. But some states have made it an acutal law that allows the ticket to go to the owner of the offending car even if the owner wasn't driving. I'm not positive but I do think that a few of the cameras may still flash occasionally as they are still in place around Minneapolis.

[never_retreat]

You could go out tonight and "take care" of it so that this problem never happens again.
Get some ideas here. http://www.speedcam.co.uk/index2.htm

[Nick1911]

You could go out tonight and "take care" of it so that this problem never happens again.

I may need to invest in a paintball gun in the near future.

Welcome to the Armed, Polite Society discussion forum. We are hosted free of charge by Geovario. The rules of conduct here are what you would expect in any civilized home: be civil to others, don't advocate commission of capital crimes and keep the language and the imagery tame. Otherwise, all topics are welcome.

[zxcvbob]

Sorry about that, the paintball comment was just a joke.  



edit: added link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geUhtoHbLu4

[Jamisjockey]

You could go out tonight and "take care" of it so that this problem never happens again.
Get some ideas here. http://www.speedcam.co.uk/index2.htm

Any further talk or encouragement to commit illegal activities in this thread will result in perma ban. 

[Monkeyleg]

They're not ticketing you, they're ticketing your car. Sort of like Chief Dan George in "The Outlaw Josey Wales":

"I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender. They have him pulling a wagon up in Kansas I bet."

[never_retreat]

Any further talk or encouragement to commit illegal activities in this thread will result in perma ban. 

I was merely suggesting forming a watch group and writing nasty letters to the town displaying your displeasure.

[Jamisjockey]

I was merely suggesting forming a watch group and writing nasty letters to the town displaying your displeasure.

With what, an angle grinder?  You don't think I looked at the weblink you provided?   

[Brad Johnson]

If I do get a ticket I'm planning to challenge it; blame the city for not sanding the intersections.  But I don't know if you even can challenge these things.  I believe they issue the ticket to the vehicle itself rather than the driver; kind of like civil forfeiture laws where they "arrest" the money, and money is not guaranteed a right to due process, etc.

The city will come back with the standard line of "if you had been driving at a speed appropriate for the conditions you would have been able to safely stop your vehicle in time for the light." 

The upside is it may not be considered a moving violation.  Lubbock tried that little trick a couple of years ago.  The ticket was not a moving violation (which is for the driver) but rather a citation for violating a city ordinance (which can be tied to the vehicle).  In other words, you could be ticketed for a vehicle that you weren't even driving.  That went over like a turd in a punchbowl.  That, plus the tiny little irritation of seeing accidents at the camera-monitored intersection actually RISE in the year they were installed, resulted in the contract not being renewed.

Brad

[230RN]

I allege and aver on my own responsibility:  They are not interested in safety.  They are interested in the money.

If you got it, pay it, budget it in with car maintenance, forget it.

I don't think you were necessarily driving too fast for conditions. I think maybe you were driving too fast for the revenue-producing unreasonably short yellow light.  I understand, but cannot document, that municiplaites have discovered that if a yellow light is shorter, they can get more money from these cameras  -and officers waiting for this kind of violation.

What I resent about those kinds of gadgets is that a lot of companies found great market segments in "selling" their BS products to government entities large and small.  And our elected suckers (one born every minute) buy into these latest and greatest "advances" in technology.  Ooo, ooo, gotta have it, gotta have it.

No wonder all our elected suckers are making their governments go broke. And even if they are getting all the money for this latest and greatest technology from federal grants...

...guess whose money that is?

Gee whiz, how quickly that turned rantlike... sorry.

Terry, 230RN

[Jamisjockey]

I allege and aver on my own responsibility:  They are not interested in safety.  They are interested in the money.

If you got it, pay it, budget it in with car maintenance, forget it.

I don't think you were necessarily driving too fast for conditions. I think maybe you were driving too fast for the revenue-producing unreasonably short yellow light.  I understand, but cannot document, that municiplaites have discovered that if a yellow light is shorter, they can get more money from these cameras  -and officers waiting for this kind of violation.

What I resent about those kinds of gadgets is that a lot of companies found great market segments in "selling" their BS products to government entities large and small.  And our elected suckers (one born every minute) buy into these latest and greatest "advances" in technology.  Ooo, ooo, gotta have it, gotta have it.

No wonder all our elected suckers are making their governments go broke. And even if they are getting all the money for this latest and greatest technology from federal grants...

...guess whose money that is?

Gee whiz, how quickly that turned rantlike... sorry.

Terry, 230RN

Even worse, alot of these companies put them in at little to no cost to the municipality, and then take a portion of the proceeds.  And the companies make them sign contracts to keep them up.

Here in Houston, they had a multi-year contract, and were taking 75% of the money.  The voters went through the legal motions to get it on the ballot last November, and voted to have them removed.  Sure enough, they haven't been removed, and now the city is expecting a legal fight with the company that put them in. 
They only person so far who's gotten on TV and said anything about safety is the Houston PD Chief, and he honestly sounded like a putz.

[Waitone]

Charlotte went nutso over cameras.  Don't know if the set up is the same as Charlotte so here goes.  Camera tickets had nothing to do with the courts.  It was a commercial transaction.  The camera would photography you and the car.  A processing entity (usually the one owning the cameras) would send you a photo and bill for the fine.  You could pay the fine if you wished or you could simply ignore it.  The only recourse the company had was to say bad things about you on your credit history.  Goobermint was not involved in the transaction.  Traffic cameras were strictly a money making enterprise. 

[charby]

I live in Ames, Ia and there are cameras at the busy intersects. The police and city assure us that they are used to signal the lights to change and are not for tickets or taping accidents. Camera is connected to a computer system.

I have never heard of anyone here getting a ticket in the mail for running a redlight, so perhaps they are telling the truth.

[MechAg94]

Even worse, alot of these companies put them in at little to no cost to the municipality, and then take a portion of the proceeds.  And the companies make them sign contracts to keep them up.

Here in Houston, they had a multi-year contract, and were taking 75% of the money.  The voters went through the legal motions to get it on the ballot last November, and voted to have them removed.  Sure enough, they haven't been removed, and now the city is expecting a legal fight with the company that put them in.  
They only person so far who's gotten on TV and said anything about safety is the Houston PD Chief, and he honestly sounded like a putz.

The HPD Chief is almost always a political appointee who does what the liberal leadership wants or goes away.

Red light cameras are regulated by the state in Texas.  I heard an interview of a state Rep a while back who said they require a traffic study be done for each intersection they are installed at and require yellow light times to conform to state DOT guidelines.  I am pretty sure they also cannot use a camera to enforce criminal laws/ordinances.  His comment was all these towns were lobbying for the cameras, but when asked where they installed them, it wasn't at the 4-way stop in the middle of town, it was on the highway with all the pass through traffic where they could generate more money.  I think the regulations the state has passed have discouraged the use of the cameras a bit.

[AJ Dual]

Here in WI speed cameras and red-light cameras are illegal by law.

One of the rare instances where conservative attitudes, and liberal anti-capitalist ones meshed very well. (Because the systems are almost always run by a company who then takes a cut of the fines.)

[Ben]

For any of you that have gotten one of these tickets, did the photo that was sent to you have a picture of just your license plate, or of your face as well?

My Niece got one of these tickets, and hers had her face on it. Unfortunately for her, it kind of did her in. She was laughing about it afterwards, but her expression was a shocked one of, "Oh my God, the light turned red". Kind of hard to explain that away to the judge. :)

A few years ago, a friend of mine rented a car for a couple of days and had to drive to Los Angeles. A week later, she got a ticket in the mail with the license number on the rental. The license plate only photo was dated for the day after she turned the car in. She could only surmise that somehow when the ticket went to Hertz, they sent the cops the paperwork for the last driver of the vehicle (my friend) not whoever was driving it and got the ticket.

It was very aggravating for my friend to fix. Hertz of course would not release the name of the driver who got the ticket or that driver's paperwork to my friend, and whoever handles the tickets in LA would not call Hertz to request it. They also would not accept a faxed or scanned rental receipt from my friend showing the dates of her rental. She ended up having to drive 120 miles to LA to go to court with the hardcopy invoice and an affidavit from work showing she was nowhere near LA the day of the ticket. They let it go, but her time and expense to clear herself were more than the fine would have been.

[Monkeyleg]

Ben, I had a situation somewhat similar to the red light cameras back in 2008, and I was sent a photo of the plates.

I was on my way back from PA, and hit the Chicago I-294 bypass on the afternoon of the 3rd of July. Traffic was jam-packed, and construction was everywhere. It was really hard to maneuver through the concrete barricades and around the barrels, much less try to not hit the cars around me.

Every time I'd come upon a toll plaza ("plaza" sounds so refreshing) I couldn't get over into the right lane. Nobody would let me, and traffic was moving too fast for me to force my way over. So I missed going through five plazas and instead had to go through the express lanes. I wasn't trying to scam them, I just could not get through.

I wound up getting five tickets for $20 each, with each having a photo of my plate. I would have said screw it, but IL has an agreement with WI that the WI department of transportation won't renew plates if money is owed to the Illinois tollway company.

[Jamisjockey]

I got one in League city, TX.  It was when I was down here house hunting.  Picture was of just my license plate, but there was supposedly video.  I was in the middle of moving, so I just paid it to be done with it.

[HankB]

I've heard in some places that teenagers have been known to print out "fake" plates with someone else's number on them, place them over their own plates temporarily, and then drive through a toll plaza or red light camera just so the target of their ire gets a ticket.

Wonder what the penalty is for getting caught doing something like that?

[never_retreat]

I live in Ames, Ia and there are cameras at the busy intersects. The police and city assure us that they are used to signal the lights to change and are not for tickets or taping accidents. Camera is connected to a computer system.

I have never heard of anyone here getting a ticket in the mail for running a redlight, so perhaps they are telling the truth.

You are correct, most of these stand alone cameras on traffic lights are used to trigger the light change patterns.
The camera is fixed looking at one spot, the screen is essentially broken into squares or areas. The areas would be say for the right turn lane, the straight, or the left turn lane. What the relatively dumb piece of equipment does is look for changes of aspect in each of the grid areas to adjust the lights accordingly. So say if no one is in the left hand turn lane there would be no delayed green for the oncoming traffic. Its a quicker way to make a "smart" intersection without cutting up the road and installing loop detectors in each lane.

[zxcvbob]

Every time I'd come upon a toll plaza ("plaza" sounds so refreshing) I couldn't get over into the right lane. Nobody would let me, and traffic was moving too fast for me to force my way over. So I missed going through five plazas and instead had to go through the express lanes. I wasn't trying to scam them, I just could not get through.

That's when you put your blinker on and just start moving over very slowly without looking.  I learned this driving the Eastex Freeway in Houston.  (of course, driving a big rust-bucket of a pickup truck that looks uninsurable probably helps)  It works better when traffic is moving kind of fast.

[230RN]

I've heard in some places that teenagers have been known to print out "fake" plates with someone else's number on them, place them over their own plates temporarily, and then drive through a toll plaza or red light camera just so the target of their ire gets a ticket.

Wonder what the penalty is for getting caught doing something like that?

Here in Colorado using a falsified plate is a criminal offense, not a mere traffiic violation.  (I had mixed up my car date sticker with my truck date sticker.  That's how I found that out after a traffic stop for something else.  An explanation to the assistant DA got it dismissed, though. Funny thing was the cops could not sieze my front plate because I had pop-riveted it to the bumper.  They got the rear one, though.)

There are "license plate generators" on line if you want to play with funny plates for your state.  Viz., and to wit:






"Cue-Tee-Pi" for the NC one.  Took me a while to figure that one out. After all, what do you expect from me? It's four orders of magnitude off!

Terry, "Decimal Points Are Important," 230RN

[Brad Johnson]

They let it go, but her time and expense to clear herself were more than the fine would have been.

She could have nailed Hertz to the wall.  With the court's dismissal in hand she had proof that Hertz had failed in their duty to perform due diligence.  In most states that falls under specific performance and is usually attached to a treble damages clause.  That's in civil court.  She might also have had a pretty good criminal case if she'd wanted to pursue it.  Might still if the statute of limitations hasn't run out.

Brad

[Monkeyleg]

That's when you put your blinker on and just start moving over very slowly without looking.  I learned this driving the Eastex Freeway in Houston.  (of course, driving a big rust-bucket of a pickup truck that looks uninsurable probably helps)  It works better when traffic is moving kind of fast.

If I'd been driving my beater Saturn that's just what I would have done. I had my wife's PT Cruiser, though, and she'd have my head if it was damaged.

I really like the idea of faking the plates of someone you don't like. My list of people is so long, though.