Author Topic: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education  (Read 3104 times)

Ben

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Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« on: October 07, 2010, 10:27:16 AM »
Yeah, I can see why they thought nothing could go wrong. Did the committee that thought this up say, "Hold my beer and watch this!"?

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"White men getting richer than Enron. They stepping on Indians, women and blacks. Era of Good Feeling doesn't come with the facts."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/06/oklahoma-school-district-postpones-teach-rap-program-refers-founding-fathers/
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Nick1911

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2010, 10:40:25 AM »
 [barf]

Upon further reading, this seems to be (originally) a learning tool to get at-risk demographics high enough SAT scores to get into college that can't learn the material by conventional means.

Naturally, for those which the program works for, one has to wonder how they will succeed in college, where only traditional lecture/recitation/lab sessions are present.

IMO, The duo that created this system would do well to sell the company now, before this (like countless other educational fads), disappears into the woodwork.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 10:46:13 AM by Nick1911 »

Monkeyleg

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 10:49:12 AM »
At least 15 teachers objected. In the liberal enclaves in WI, MN and so on, there would be no objections.

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We have about 15 different programs, and on that U.S. history program we have about 12 songs and these are the lyrics that can be considered the most thought-provoking or provocative out of our whole body of work," Rappaport says.

"What I want is a student to hear a line about Andrew Jackson and be so engaged by the way we’re presenting Andrew Jackson that they go back, open the text book and read the entry about Andrew Jackson…and ask their teacher and have a discussion about Andrew Jackson," he added. "The songs are meant to be the beginning of the discussion, not the end."

Yeah, they're going to go back and read the entry again, then discuss. No, I think they're just going to have it in their heads that these "old white men" were murderers and plunderers, and this teacher knows it.

This is all part of a larger question: since when has education had to stoop to the level of pop culture in order to teach? I don't remember "flower power" songs about trigonometry when I was in high school.

Ben

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2010, 10:52:12 AM »
I actually have no problem with the method. Everyone learns differently. If this helps kids connect to the material being taught, great. My problem is with the material itself.

If they want to be edgy and provocative to get the kids energized, why don't they start out with negative statements about groups other than "old white men"? That is as easy a target as Christianity with the "Jesus art".
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taurusowner

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2010, 11:06:04 AM »
Not to derail the thread completely, but I have been wondering something about public education for a while.  Long ago, when children still worked in the fields, school was not something that was expected of everyone.  Most kids would get enough to read and write on a basic level, and then take over the family farm, auto-shop, grocery store, etc for their parents.  Only the "smart kids" really went all the way to college and such.  But over the past century, we've come to expect everyone to at least make it through high school, and now in the past few decades, college as well.  And we are still astonished by how many people fail abysmally at school.  I am wondering, is everyone really cut out for school like we seem to think?  The whole education system seems to constantly try new ways to "get to" kids who do poorly in conventional means.  And every one of these new ways of teaching has failed.  Could it be that some people really just can't make it no matter what?  I don't really want to say some people are just stupid and that's that.  But it does seem that while as the decades go by we keep sending more and more people to higher education, the amount of people who actually succeed in higher education stays the same.  So we end up with programs that are dumbed down more and more every year to attempt to teach the comparatively stupider masses.   Do you really think everyone, if given the right method of learning in the right environment etc, is capable of achievement in higher education?  Or are some people really only capable of working the family wheat field, even if there really aren't any family wheat fields left?


As far as the actual topic goes, I don't see this going anywhere positive.  I think the kinds of students who need this type of program to learn in the first place, probably aren't going to be going anywhere in life anyways.  Real life doesn't reshape itself to whatever is most comfortable to you.  People working in labs on disease cures, people designing the next source of energy, or building hydroelectric dams, are not the kid of people who learn from rap.  Real life and real achievement is always through hard science.  Rockets aren't built with hip-hop education.  Heart bypass surgery procedures aren't learned through rap.  They people who achieve in real life at real jobs, are the people who decided to achieve at real learning.  If you're the kind of person who thinks they need the education system to be reshaped to fit your comfort level, you're not really the kind of person who is going to achieve anything substantial.

*Maybe I'm just overly mean and cynical.  I've never bought into the whole "everyone is special in their own way" line.  I believe there really are some people who are essentially worthless.  Maybe that view has bled over into how I view other things as well.

41magsnub

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 11:31:12 AM »
If it works, I'm for it as long as it is used as a transitional tool to normal schooling for a short time and not a crutch the kids will continue to depend on.  Oh, not vilifying the founding fathers would be nice too.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2010, 11:58:08 AM »
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If it works, I'm for it as long as it is used as a transitional tool to normal schooling for a short time and not a crutch the kids will continue to depend on.  Oh, not vilifying the founding fathers would be nice too.

This. Not everybody learns the same way.
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HankB

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2010, 12:25:48 PM »
Ebonics wasn't bad enough, now they're setting it to rap music noise  . . .  :facepalm:

Someone explain to me how this isn't a deliberate, malicious plan to destroy an already damaged US education system.

Please.
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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2010, 01:07:15 PM »
Ebonics wasn't bad enough, now they're setting it to rap music noise  . . .  :facepalm:

Someone explain to me how this isn't a deliberate, malicious plan to destroy an already damaged US education system.

Please.
At least it rhymes, for the most part.

Ned Hamford

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2010, 01:42:04 PM »
Economic Theory Rap Battle :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk

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vaskidmark

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2010, 10:19:50 PM »
Yeah, I can see why they thought nothing could go wrong. Did the committee that thought this up say, "Hold my beer and watch this!"?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/06/oklahoma-school-district-postpones-teach-rap-program-refers-founding-fathers/

"I just don't think we were real careful where we deployed it," Allen told NewsOK.com. "Not all parts of it are real affective for the more troubled youth."

There it is - just need to translate from eduspeak into real words.

And yes, I have some serious concerns over what appears to be highly politicized statements when there is nothing that says the kids engage in discussion - let alone debate - about the material presented.  There are a few differing schools of though regarding Manifest Destiny and the relationship between the USA and the aboriginal peoples.  Being exposed to mare than one set of thoughts is where the education comes from - otherwise it is recitation of facts without knowing what those facts mean.

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vaskidmark

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2010, 10:29:30 PM »
Not to derail the thread completely, but I have been wondering something about public education for a while.  Long ago, when children still worked in the fields, school was not something that was expected of everyone.  Most kids would get enough to read and write on a basic level, and then take over the family farm, auto-shop, grocery store, etc for their parents.  Only the "smart kids" really went all the way to college and such.  But over the past century, we've come to expect everyone to at least make it through high school, and now in the past few decades, college as well.  And we are still astonished by how many people fail abysmally at school.  I am wondering, is everyone really cut out for school like we seem to think?  The whole education system seems to constantly try new ways to "get to" kids who do poorly in conventional means.  And every one of these new ways of teaching has failed.  Could it be that some people really just can't make it no matter what?  I don't really want to say some people are just stupid and that's that.  But it does seem that while as the decades go by we keep sending more and more people to higher education, the amount of people who actually succeed in higher education stays the same.  So we end up with programs that are dumbed down more and more every year to attempt to teach the comparatively stupider masses.   Do you really think everyone, if given the right method of learning in the right environment etc, is capable of achievement in higher education?  Or are some people really only capable of working the family wheat field, even if there really aren't any family wheat fields left?

After the Industrial Revolution there was a concerted effort to keep kids out of the work force due to both theperception of the exploitation of innocent youth (a somewhat romanticized notion) and the actual need to keep youth out of the workforce to protect the increases in wages that unionization brought to the workers.  Along with that was the unions seeing a money-making scheme to control the apprenticeship programs through minimum-age requirements.

Universal compulsory education was also a great way to get immigrants to attempt to settle the Great Midwest - sell them on the notion that they could farm while sending their kids off to be learned to cipher and read thus making them beter able to take over and increase the family farm.  Education, being denied to many Eastern and Western Europeans, was a big deal.

Compulsory education was also pushed in the big cities as a way to Americanize the immigrant kids (and throuth the kids the adults as well ["Speak American, Mom!"]), as well as get the little gangsters off the streets and thus reduce the crime rates.

And you thought it was to create productive citizens?  Hah!

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2010, 10:33:16 PM »
At least it rhymes, for the most part.

Indeed. Rap is far more musical and rational than a lot of the jazz and post-modern "poetry" that old white folks seem to accept.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2010, 11:33:19 PM »
Long ago, when children still worked in the fields, school was not something that was expected of everyone.

In some cultures.  Others have had a handle on near-universal literacy for a while now.

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Most kids would get enough to read and write on a basic level, and then take over the family farm, auto-shop, grocery store, etc for their parents.

There has never been an era when most kids would take over a family business.  That is a nice American ideal, but it has never predominated.  

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Only the "smart lucky kids" really went all the way to college and such.

Ftfy.  Historically, one's intelligence has had little to do with whether or not one had access to higher education.

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And we are still astonished by how many people fail abysmally at school.

We are?

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Could it be that some people really just can't make it no matter what?

Of course not!  If it's impossible for X to graduate high school, then when you fail at making X able to graduate high school, you change the high school.  Then you change the college.  And then you change the grad school.  And then everyone can feel good about how worthy they are, because increasingly, one's worth is measured by one's degrees.  And that's dumb.  

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I don't really want to say some people are just stupid and that's that.

Why not?  
Of course, you seem to have worked out that stupid=worthless, and you seem to have defined stupid as failing to achieve in the hard sciences.  
This seems rather narrow and inflexible.

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the amount [sic] of people who actually succeed in higher education stays the same.

Depends on how you define success.  Your own definition--achievement in the hard sciences--kinda' dismisses as utterly worthless entire graduate schools.  But other measures, say number of degrees awarded, it's not staying the same at all.  Of course, this is a problem when it comes to allocating jobs.

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Or are some people really only capable of working the family wheat field, even if there really aren't any family wheat fields left?

Of course.  You seem have decided they are the worthless people?  Personally, I kind of like to eat.  

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I think the kinds of students who need this type of program to learn in the first place, probably aren't going to be going anywhere in life school anyway.

Ftfy too.

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Real life doesn't reshape itself to whatever is most comfortable to you.

Not entirely true.  There is a LOT more flexibility to be found in earning a living than in getting through high school.  

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Real life and real achievement is always through hard science.

Wtf?  I'm reasonably sure I've been living a real life in the ten years since I last spent an afternoon in a lab.  

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The people who achieve in real life at real jobs are the people who decided to achieved at real learning.

Ftfy too.  Either some people are just stupid and incapable of learning at a high academic level, or anyone who doesn't work in the hard sciences in an under-motivated loser. Pick one.

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If you're the kind of person who thinks they need the education system to be reshaped to fit your comfort level, you're not really the kind of person who is going to achieve anything substantial.

Again, are they unable to achieve in the educational system because they have sub-par intelligence or because they think they need the education system tailored to their needs?

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*Maybe I'm just overly mean and cynical.

Could be.  

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I've never bought into the whole "everyone is special in their own way" line.  I believe there really are some people who are essentially worthless.  Maybe that view has bled over into how I view other things as well.

Seems like it.  You don't seem able to distinguish between intelligence incapable of high academic achievement (say, perhaps the bottom 80%, or IQs under about 110) and people who are lazy and unmotivated, or to put it another way, essentially worthless.

Which leaves me wondering: Don't you like to eat?  
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 11:39:21 PM by BridgeWalker »

taurusowner

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2010, 11:55:08 PM »
Sorry, I don't read posts where people break down someone else's comments sentence by sentence, whether it's mine or not.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2010, 12:12:50 AM »
Sorry, I don't read posts where people break down someone else's comments sentence by sentence, whether it's mine or not.

Yeah, it really messes up the syllogism when someone questions your premises, doesn't it?

taurusowner

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2010, 12:15:08 AM »
Yeah, it really messes up the syllogism when someone questions your premises, doesn't it?

Not at all.  I just think there are better ways to do it.  I've had a problem with the sentence by sentence breakdown thing for years and on a lot more forums than this.  It just seems rude to me.  Respond all you want, that's why I posted it.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 12:19:33 AM by Ben »

Ben

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2010, 12:20:46 AM »
No personal attacks please. I'm gonna be kinda riled up if I have to lock my own thread.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2010, 12:26:28 AM »
No personal attacks please. I'm gonna be kinda riled up if I have to lock my own thread.

Yeah, but at least when we force you to lock your own thread, you'll know who's really in charge around here.  :P
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2010, 12:35:45 AM »
Personally, I think calling someone a crude name for using a quicker, easier writing style to comment on one's precious prose call more for an apology than a quick edit.

Having long harbored the feeling that something is rude does not make it so.  However, calling someone crude names is unquestionably pretty rude.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Oklahoma "Teach Through Rap" Public Education
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2010, 02:04:49 AM »
Far more people are capable of being productive and intelligent than is commonly believed. The problem is getting to these people, identifying them, and utilizing the proper techniques. The teaching craft is full of experiments - Montessori schools, unschooling, whatever - that seem to work for some and not for others. That's not surprising for anybody familiar with Austrian economic theory.
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