Post by: Perd Hapley on July 14, 2007, 05:02:32 AM
When I try to do things the right way, by using the left lane to pass and then going back to the right, I end up getting stuck behind the next slow-moving vehicle, while a caravan passes me on the left. How does that help anyone or make anyone safer?
Whence this superstition about the left lane? Why should we pass on the left, and not the right? Why should we try to stay to the right, when that is the lane where people are entering from on-ramps, or stopping to make right turns?
Or do I need to be talked down?
Post by: Tuco on July 14, 2007, 05:10:59 AM
Keeps me awake and interested in driving.
Post by: Gewehr98 on July 14, 2007, 05:44:30 AM
"Where's the fire, Chief?"
(What I ask folks I pull over for blatant stormtrooping in traffic)
What did they teach you in Driver's Ed? Or are you one of those who did a brain dump as soon as the license examiner gave you the passing grade? I see those a lot, turn signals are optional equipment, too.
Post by: Bogie on July 14, 2007, 05:46:07 AM
Post by: grislyatoms on July 14, 2007, 05:52:52 AM
I drive in the middle. Even if it is just two lanes.
So you're the one I'm always stuck behind.
I stay in the right lane the majority of the time. And, I take my time. The rest of the world can blow by me in the hammer lane all they want. It's just not worth getting all ticked off in traffic, for me.
Post by: Paddy on July 14, 2007, 06:01:50 AM
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When I try to do things the right way, by using the left lane to pass and then going back to the right, I end up getting stuck behind the next slow-moving vehicle, while a caravan passes me on the left. How does that help anyone or make anyone safer?
I hear ya. Around here though, the left lane is typically moving at 80+mph and everybody tailgates. I don't like the stress.
Post by: wmenorr67 on July 14, 2007, 06:12:45 AM
Post by: grislyatoms on July 14, 2007, 06:23:06 AM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zZD05PQ1fbA
Post by: Bogie on July 14, 2007, 06:25:16 AM
I drive the speed limit. In the van, with the trailer, it saves about 3mpg...
Post by: Tuco on July 14, 2007, 06:33:40 AM
Post by: K Frame on July 14, 2007, 07:05:33 AM
Not to be a jerk, but...
"Where's the fire, Chief?"
(What I ask folks I pull over for blatant stormtrooping in traffic)
What did they teach you in Driver's Ed? Or are you one of those who did a brain dump as soon as the license examiner gave you the passing grade? I see those a lot, turn signals are optional equipment, too.
"Where's the fire, Chief?"
(What I ask folks I pull over for blatant stormtrooping in traffic)
What did they teach you in Driver's Ed? Or are you one of those who did a brain dump as soon as the license examiner gave you the passing grade? I see those a lot, turn signals are optional equipment, too.
I don't think you're being a jerk.
I think we all know who's being the jerk...
Post by: Manedwolf on July 14, 2007, 07:07:24 AM
If you come up behind a snail in the left lane, I think it's safer to do a euro-style double-blink of your highbeams to let them know you'd like to pass. People generally wake up with a sort of "oh!, right..." and move one lane over to the right if you do that, in my experience.
Post by: Fly320s on July 14, 2007, 07:45:01 AM
Post by: cosine on July 14, 2007, 08:01:30 AM
The left lane isn't the fast lane. The signs say, "Slower traffic keep right." That means that cars that are going so slow as to be an impediment to traffic traveling the normal speed limit should move to the right. That does not mean that drivers who choose to speed get free reign in the left lane.
I've always been under the impression that if you're going the speed limit, and you are the slower traffic, you stay right.
Post by: Gewehr98 on July 14, 2007, 08:03:29 AM
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If you come up behind a snail in the left lane, I think it's safer to do a euro-style double-blink of your highbeams to let them know you'd like to pass. People generally wake up with a sort of "oh!, right..." and move one lane over to the right if you do that, in my experience.
Or, because not everybody here in the States has driven on the Autobahn, they wonder who the a*@hole is behind them flashing their headlights, hit the brakes, road rage erupts, and I get to clean up afterwards. Hilarity ensues as backup arrives for the incident.
Everybody's an excellent driver - just ask them. They'll be more than happy to tell you, be it the kid with the learner's permit, to the 20-something in the slammed Acura w/rubber bands mounted on off-camber 20" rims, to the octogenarian in the Buick Roadmaster, they're all friggin' Mario Andretti. I'd love to see all those excellent drivers eventually die of natural causes like prostate cancer or Alzheimers, because I'd rather not scrape and rinse them off the asphalt again. I *hate* that.
As the bumper sticker on my Grandpa's old pickup said, "Drive like Hell - you'll get there!"
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 14, 2007, 08:04:45 AM
Not to be a jerk, but...
"Where's the fire, Chief?"
(What I ask folks I pull over for blatant stormtrooping in traffic)
"Where's the fire, Chief?"
(What I ask folks I pull over for blatant stormtrooping in traffic)
Storm-trooping? Fires? I've gone to the left lane partly because it is the only way I can cruise somewhere near the speed limit, without constantly dodging back and forth. Whatever the speed limit, I usually stay pretty close to it. The "storm-troopers" are the ones that get annoyed at me, because they want to travel 72 in a 60 zone. And someone told them that I should get over for them, instead of just going around when the right lane is clear. Why?
And actually I do use turn signals, even though no one else seems to around here.
Quote from: Mike Irwin
I think we all know who's being the jerk...
Yeah. It's the people tooling along in the right lane, when people are trying to get in from the on ramp. Or those of you darting out into the left lane, when the guy ahead of you makes that right turn. I'm glad we see eye-to-eye, Mike. 
Post by: Gewehr98 on July 14, 2007, 08:13:32 AM
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Why?
Why? Because you haven't elected somebody who will change traffic laws, abolishing the slow lane and fast lane rules. Get busy.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 14, 2007, 08:14:54 AM
Post by: Fly320s on July 14, 2007, 09:52:27 AM
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Yeah. It's the people tooling along in the right lane, when people are trying to get in from the on ramp.
You mean people are respecting the right-of-way rules? The horror!! When traffic flow permits, and I think about it, I will move one lane to the left to allow traffic to merge more easily, but I am not required to make life easier for the merging traffic; I do have the right of way, after all.Remember, folks, the speed limit is a maximum speed limit, not a minimum. The minimum is 40 or 45, I think, on interstate freeways.
Post by: Bogie on July 14, 2007, 09:57:29 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 14, 2007, 10:32:26 AM
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Yeah. It's the people tooling along in the right lane, when people are trying to get in from the on ramp.
You mean people are respecting the right-of-way rules? The horror!! When traffic flow permits, and I think about it, I will move one lane to the left to allow traffic to merge more easily, but I am not required to make life easier for the merging traffic; I do have the right of way, after all.Remember, folks, the speed limit is a maximum speed limit, not a minimum. The minimum is 40 or 45, I think, on interstate freeways.
Those sound like the reasons why I drive in the left. Except for your flippant unconcern about the danger you pose by, apparently, staying in the right lane unless you "think about it."
Yeah, Bogie, the middle lane is often the best.
Post by: Bogie on July 14, 2007, 11:11:33 AM
What I _hate_ are the folks who play the speed up and slow down bit, as you're running out of merge lane...
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 14, 2007, 11:29:13 AM
The turn lane is NOT there to help you merge onto a busy road. It is ONLY for people making left turns OFF of the road.
Using the brights in fog will NOT make you go blind. I guess it depends on the fog that you're in. I usually switch between high and low beams because each one shows me a different picture of the road, and that helps me get a better idea of what the road looks like ahead.
Post by: Gewehr98 on July 14, 2007, 11:32:47 AM
As Fly320 should know, the "Big Sky" theory is just that, a theory, and a poor one at that. Whether I'm in 500,000lbs of aluminum, nuts, and bolts flying in close formation, or a 4,100lb Crown Vic/Police Interceptor, I'll always give the other guy plenty of room to merge. Physics demands it.
Post by: Fly320s on July 14, 2007, 12:28:46 PM
I meant that the drivers on the on-ramp should not expexct or demand that the drivers on the freeway move over or change speed to allow the on-ramp to merge. The vehicles on the freeway have the right of way, that's why those yield signs, and the occassional stop sign, are directed towards the on-ramp. The on-ramp drivers are expected and required to merge their car into the flow of traffic that is already on the freeway.
Yes, when traffic conditions allow, I will move over to allow others to merge easily and allow me to maintain my speed. Yes, that is the polite thing to do and it certainly follows my personal driving philosophy of "don't interfere with other's progress/course of action." The fact remains, however, that I am not required to change my course to allow others to merge. The problem is with those drivers who think that "everyone else is in my way and must immediatly move out of the way because I am: going faster, or changing lanes, or turning, or merging, or exiting."
The merging driver needs to plan ahead. He needs to assess the flow of traffic to determine the best way to merge safely. Sometimes the driver will need to put the pedal-to-the-metal to match speeds and find a hole in the traffic. Other times, such as during heavy traffic, the driver will need to slow to a crawl to complete a safe merge. And sometimes the only course of action is to charge right in and hope the other drivers are paying attention.
Predictability equals safety. If you know (have a reasonable belief) that the other drivers are going to act in a manner that you can predict, i.e. follow the traffic laws, then you can reasonably expect not to be crashed into. Or would you rather drive like those countries that traffic suggestions?
Post by: Parker Dean on July 14, 2007, 12:29:27 PM
The turn lane is NOT there to help you merge onto a busy road. It is ONLY for people making left turns OFF of the road.
Varies by location actually. Here in Corpus it is a legal move to use the turn lane to merge from.
Also, in Texas the law is that the left lane is for passing only. Kinda negates the speed-limit-in-the-left-lane-is-OK argument.
Post by: Gewehr98 on July 14, 2007, 12:40:03 PM
What also caught my attention was the MP5-armed police standing at nearly every intersection in Caracas. This was pre-Chavez, but I doubt they were there for traffic enforcement.
Regardless, we still have some semblance of sanity in our daily traffic patterns here, compared to several other locations off the top of my head.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 14, 2007, 04:50:43 PM
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The vehicles on the freeway have the right of way, that's why those yield signs, and the occassional stop sign, are directed towards the on-ramp. The on-ramp drivers are expected and required to merge their car into the flow of traffic that is already on the freeway.
That much I agree with.
This is dumb:
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I meant that the drivers on the on-ramp should not expexct or demand that the drivers on the freeway move over or change speed to allow the on-ramp to merge.
I both expect and demand that drivers do all they can to keep the right lane clear for those entering and exiting. Doing otherwise leads to accidents. The easiest way to do this is to avoid driving in the right lane as much as possible.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 14, 2007, 04:56:00 PM
The turn lane is NOT there to help you merge onto a busy road. It is ONLY for people making left turns OFF of the road.
Varies by location actually. Here in Corpus it is a legal move to use the turn lane to merge from.
It varies not a whit by location. I was speaking of what would make sense for safe driving, not about law. Turn lanes should be kept clear for those ALREADY IN THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC, who need to stop and wait for a chance to turn. Those trying to enter the road already have a safe place to wait, and it ain't the turn lane.
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Also, in Texas the law is that the left lane is for passing only. Kinda negates the speed-limit-in-the-left-lane-is-OK argument.
Oh, the left lane for driving the speed limit isn't just OK. It is often a safer place to drive. Nice law you have there, that encourages unsafe driving.
Post by: Fly320s on July 14, 2007, 05:19:27 PM
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I both expect and demand that drivers do all they can to keep the right lane clear for those entering and exiting. Doing otherwise leads to accidents. The easiest way to do this is to avoid driving in the right lane as much as possible.
What do you demand drivers do on two-lane highways (one lane each direction)? There is no left or right lane.
Post by: Sergeant Bob on July 14, 2007, 05:46:40 PM
I both expect and demand that drivers do all they can to keep the right lane clear for those entering and exiting. Doing otherwise leads to accidents. The easiest way to do this is to avoid driving in the right lane as much as possible.
Demand? Yeah, well, you can demand all you want but, you'll be the one in the ditch.
I'm actually one of the most courteous drivers you'll find on the road, but when people start demanding, I've been known to give out 18 wheels worth of driving lessons.
Post by: wmenorr67 on July 14, 2007, 05:51:25 PM
Post by: Parker Dean on July 14, 2007, 07:21:49 PM
It varies not a whit by location. I was speaking of what would make sense for safe driving, not about law. Turn lanes should be kept clear for those ALREADY IN THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC, who need to stop and wait for a chance to turn. Those trying to enter the road already have a safe place to wait, and it ain't the turn lane.
Well, since the streets here are not running red with the blood of those killed by turning-lane mergers, I think the system works well enough.
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Oh, the left lane for driving the speed limit isn't just OK. It is often a safer place to drive. Nice law you have there, that encourages unsafe driving.
The reason that law exists is because some holier-than-thou types would sit in the left lane and pace traffic in the right lane causing traffic backups, short tempers, and the resultant overly aggressive driving of those stuck behind. Their justification would be that they were going the limit and why should they move. This law was specifically made because that happened too much on the I35 corridor. And it isn't a secret by any means, 4 lane divided highways frequently have very large white signs stating "Left Lane is for Passing Only".
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 14, 2007, 07:27:08 PM
What do you demand drivers do on two-lane highways (one lane each direction)? There is no left or right lane.
Uh, those usually don't have on-ramps. But I recall specifically stating that I was speaking of roads with multiple lanes in each direction.
Post by: MechAg94 on July 14, 2007, 07:41:40 PM
I pass people on the right regularly if they don't get over. My only purpose is to get on around them with as little hassle as possible. No point in flashing lights or tailgating them if there is no reason to. Some people will get over when I am coming up behind them, but there is a sizable percentage of people who won't for whatever reason. It is up to me to keep an eye on the cars around me especially when I am in their blind spot.
Post by: MechAg94 on July 14, 2007, 07:52:05 PM
1. Herd Drivers. People who will go fast or slow when driving by themselves, but let them pull up next to another vehicle or two on the highway and they speed up or slow down to stay with the other drivers. They either make it difficult to pass them or take 10 minutes to pass someone in the right lane.
1a. The worst of these are the people who will drive 80 down I-10, but slow down to 70 when the are passing an 18 wheeler. Someone needs to explain to them that risk is a function of time more than speed. The longer they stay with that truck the more likely it will veer into their lane due to wind or something. Get your can moving. I am not exaggerating at all on the speed differential. I may be underestimating it.
1b. The next to worst of this type will sit there and ride your rear bumper and stay in your blind spot. They will almost always slow back down eventually, but it is annoying.
2. If you are going to run up on somebody's rear and they get over to let you pass; PASS THEM!. Don't pull up just over their rear bumper and sit there and take an hour to pass. I get back over when I sense people doing that to me. They typically make a better effort after that.
Post by: zahc on July 14, 2007, 07:59:46 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 14, 2007, 08:00:31 PM
It varies not a whit by location. I was speaking of what would make sense for safe driving, not about law. Turn lanes should be kept clear for those ALREADY IN THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC, who need to stop and wait for a chance to turn. Those trying to enter the road already have a safe place to wait, and it ain't the turn lane.
Well, since the streets here are not running red with the blood of those killed by turning-lane mergers, I think the system works well enough.
Oh, people do the same crap here, and I'm sure we have the same number of accidents from that mis-guided practice, too. I don't know if our laws are the same on that, or not.
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Oh, the left lane for driving the speed limit isn't just OK. It is often a safer place to drive. Nice law you have there, that encourages unsafe driving.
The reason that law exists is because some holier-than-thou types would sit in the left lane and pace traffic in the right lane causing traffic backups, short tempers, and the resultant overly aggressive driving of those stuck behind. Their justification would be that they were going the limit and why should they move.
I notice you blame those who are calmly driving at the legal speed limit, rather than those who wish to break the speed limit. Yesterday, I was driving 64 in a 60 mph zone, in the far left lane of a six-lane highway (three lanes each way). One of my "victims" passed me in the middle lane, extending a middle finger of friendship. He then pulled into my lane, with only a foot or so of clearance, and quickly decelerated to about forty miles per hour. I'm fairly certain I was not at fault for his potentially lethal behavior.
Holier-than-thou - How do you know that they're thinking? Maybe they just want to drive at a constant speed without dodging back and forth from one lane to the other.
Pacing traffic in the right lane - I don't like to do that, but I would like to know why the person in the left lane is blamed for blocking traffic, rather than the fellow in the right lane. Apparently, it is the result of superstitious ideas about the left lane being some hallowed ground for speed demons.
If both lanes are traveling at the speed limit, then please explain how safety is enhanced by clearing the left lane for those who choose to go faster than the posted speed? Especially when this will often dangerously clog the right lane for those attempting to exit or enter the road?
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short tempers, and the resultant overly aggressive driving of those stuck behind.
So, the person traveling the speed limit in the left lane is now responsible for the happiness of those behind him. Guess what? I get short-tempered when I obediently move into the right lane, only to find myself stuck behind those traveling below the speed limit. Then I am tempted to drive aggressively to get back into the left lane, to pass. What I have concluded is that I should stay in the left lane. The problem is not my driving. The problem are those who want to drive at a speed well above the limit. Let them learn some patience.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 14, 2007, 08:20:34 PM
Bullshit. I don't want some slow SOB cutting me off because he thought he saw someone on the on-ramp. The slower traffic should always keep right. It is easier for merging traffic to merge with a guys going 55 than the guys passing at 75 or 80. If that was actually done, the right lane would become the passing lane which would defeat this safety purpose you seem to have in mind.
1. I don't want anyone to cut you off, either. But if there is enough room for the "slow SOB" to go into the left lane, it is easier and safer for you to slow down a bit (or move into a farther left lane) than for the merging vehicle to dodge the slow SOB as he is trying to enter the freeway.
2.
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The slower traffic should always keep right.
Courtesy demands that vehicles, if possible, travel near the speed limit, to avoid slowing down the rest of us. Human nature assures that there will be very few such people. There should be no "slower traffic," except for a very few vehicles that simply can't hack it and the rare souls who don't want to keep up. And who cares where those few, rare slowpokes go? 3. If 75 is legal, there will be no one going at 55. See #2 above. Or if the limit is 55, why are you going 80? Maybe you are the safety problem.
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If that was actually done, the right lane would become the passing lane which would defeat this safety purpose you seem to have in mind.
That might seem to be a sticking point, but I wonder what's harder to merge into - a line of cars moving at 60, or a few cars going 75. If there are but two lanes, then no one ought to be passing near an on-ramp, anyway. That is why urban areas with multiple, closely-packed exits often have a third lane. Or more.
Post by: MechAg94 on July 14, 2007, 08:24:28 PM
I notice you blame those who are calmly driving at the legal speed limit, rather than those who wish to break the speed limit. Yesterday, I was driving 64 in a 60 mph zone, in the far left lane of a six-lane
Pacing traffic in the right lane - I don't like to do that, but I would like to know why the person in the left lane is blamed for blocking traffic, rather than the fellow in the right lane. Apparently, it is the result of superstitious ideas about the left lane being some hallowed ground for speed demons.
Perhaps you should see the superstitious road signs in Texas that say "Slow Traffic Keep Right". Pacing traffic in the right lane - I don't like to do that, but I would like to know why the person in the left lane is blamed for blocking traffic, rather than the fellow in the right lane. Apparently, it is the result of superstitious ideas about the left lane being some hallowed ground for speed demons.
If you are in the front of the pack in the left lane, it is your obligation to get over or pass. Blocking people from passing you makes the road much less safe than just driving fast. As one defensive driving instructor told us once; if someone is tailgating you, your attention is focused on him and his on you. Neither of you is putting as much attention as you should to just driving. It doesn't matter whose fault you think it is.
64 in a 60 in Houston would piss of about 60% of all drivers on the road. Stop being stubborn and selfish. Show a little common courtesy and stay to right.
IMHO, if you have to drive the speed limit to feel safe, then you really aren't one of those really good drivers...or else you just aren't paying attention.
Post by: MechAg94 on July 14, 2007, 08:31:21 PM
Most of the highways I use in Texas have 60 to 70 MPH speed limits. You see cars driving anywhere from 55 to 85. You have to adjust driving to fit that. Demanding that everyone drive the speed limit because you think they should is foolish. Let other drivers drive the speed they are comfortable with just don't hog the road. If others want to risk traffic tickets, that is their business.
If you are going to drive slow in the left lane just because you want to, don't be surprised when people get upset with you. You brought it on yourself.
Post by: bunni on July 15, 2007, 06:11:16 AM
The left lane isn't the fast lane. The signs say, "Slower traffic keep right." That means that cars that are going so slow as to be an impediment to traffic traveling the normal speed limit should move to the right. That does not mean that drivers who choose to speed get free reign in the left lane.
That's way out of line as far as I'm concerned - slower traffic, keep right. This means you.
Post by: griz on July 15, 2007, 06:11:56 AM
There have been cases of road rage in female drivers, but you have to admit that most women drivers don't seem to be overly stressed out when they get where they are going. Hmmm.. maybe I can learn something here? Now I am off to join the string of cars in the left lane of I-64, trapped behind the cars going 63 while passing the cars going 62 on a road posted at 65. GRRR.
Post by: Paddy on July 15, 2007, 06:45:30 AM
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There have been cases of road rage in female drivers, but you have to admit that most women drivers don't seem to be overly stressed out when they get where they are going.
That hasn't been my experience. Some of the aggressive drivers on the road are women, lotta them driving bigazz suv's.As for me, I'm a 'defensive driver' all the way. I try to be as courteous as possible (no matter what somebody else is doing). I monitor the rear view, and pull over to let a speeding vehicle pass. If I'm in the right lane when somebody is merging, and there's nobody in the left lane, I'll even pull over to give them plenty of room. I'm just an all around nice guy, but then you all knew that.
Post by: Tuco on July 15, 2007, 07:30:19 AM
Or do I need to be talked down?
Yes.
Post by: Fly320s on July 15, 2007, 08:03:28 AM
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That's way out of line as far as I'm concerned - slower traffic, keep right. This means you.
Attitude aside, you are right.
I went to look up Texas traffic laws, since that is where I grew up and learned to drive, and found that I am entirely wrong about the "slower traffic keep right" rules.
http://home.att.net/~texhwyman/laws.htm#DriveRight
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§545.051 - DRIVING ON RIGHT SIDE OF ROADWAY
[...]
(b) An operator of a vehicle on a roadway moving more slowly than the normal speed of other vehicles at the time and place under the existing conditions shall drive in the right-hand lane available for vehicles, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless the operator is:
(1) passing another vehicle; or
(2) preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
[...]
Before I explain this one, let me ask you this: where is the fastest water in a river? In the middle, of course. Why? Because this is the place with the least friction. This is the deepest part of the river and there are no ragged edges to slow the water. A highway works the same way (think of it as a two-way river.) The right lane has the most friction: entering and exiting traffic and stalled vehicles on the shoulder. The left lane has virtually no friction. That is why it is reserved for faster-moving traffic.
Imagine this scenario: you're in the left lane on the freeway going faster than other traffic and you come up behind someone going a little slower than you. Instead of waiting a few seconds for them to move over, you whip around them on the right. At the same time, someone going much slower than you is trying to get on the freeway at the same location. Now, both of you are creating a big hazard for each other and someone is going to have to give. This is why (a) you shouldn't pass on the right; and (b) you should move to the right if you're traveling slower than other traffic. The second part applies no matter how fast you are going. Notice that the law only says that traffic moving "more slowly" than other vehicles; there is no exception given for vehicles traveling the posted speed limit. If you're going the speed limit in the left lane and someone behind you wants to go faster, move over! It is neither your right nor your privilege to enforce the law, and you're actually violating the law by not moving over. You never know-- that person may have an emergency they're responding to. On the other hand, if you're the one behind the slower driver, have a little patience and give them a few seconds to move over before you zip around them. I can't count the number of times I've seen someone in the left lane who wanted to move over but got trapped there because everyone immediately passed them on the right. Plus, the weaving of the driver who constantly passes people causes hazards for other drivers and frequently results in "kinks" in the traffic flow.
[...]
(b) An operator of a vehicle on a roadway moving more slowly than the normal speed of other vehicles at the time and place under the existing conditions shall drive in the right-hand lane available for vehicles, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless the operator is:
(1) passing another vehicle; or
(2) preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
[...]
Before I explain this one, let me ask you this: where is the fastest water in a river? In the middle, of course. Why? Because this is the place with the least friction. This is the deepest part of the river and there are no ragged edges to slow the water. A highway works the same way (think of it as a two-way river.) The right lane has the most friction: entering and exiting traffic and stalled vehicles on the shoulder. The left lane has virtually no friction. That is why it is reserved for faster-moving traffic.
Imagine this scenario: you're in the left lane on the freeway going faster than other traffic and you come up behind someone going a little slower than you. Instead of waiting a few seconds for them to move over, you whip around them on the right. At the same time, someone going much slower than you is trying to get on the freeway at the same location. Now, both of you are creating a big hazard for each other and someone is going to have to give. This is why (a) you shouldn't pass on the right; and (b) you should move to the right if you're traveling slower than other traffic. The second part applies no matter how fast you are going. Notice that the law only says that traffic moving "more slowly" than other vehicles; there is no exception given for vehicles traveling the posted speed limit. If you're going the speed limit in the left lane and someone behind you wants to go faster, move over! It is neither your right nor your privilege to enforce the law, and you're actually violating the law by not moving over. You never know-- that person may have an emergency they're responding to. On the other hand, if you're the one behind the slower driver, have a little patience and give them a few seconds to move over before you zip around them. I can't count the number of times I've seen someone in the left lane who wanted to move over but got trapped there because everyone immediately passed them on the right. Plus, the weaving of the driver who constantly passes people causes hazards for other drivers and frequently results in "kinks" in the traffic flow.
So, all you left lane lovers, have at it. I'll move out of your way.
Post by: Fly320s on July 15, 2007, 08:11:12 AM
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXI/265/265-16.htm
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265:16 Drive on Right Side of Roadway; Exceptions.
I. Upon all roadways of sufficient width a vehicle shall be driven upon the right half of the roadway, except as follows:
(a) When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction under the rules governing such movement;
(b) When an obstruction exists making it necessary to drive to the left of the center of the way; provided, any person so doing shall yield the right of way to all vehicles traveling in the proper direction upon the unobstructed portion of the way within such distance as to constitute an immediate hazard;
(c) Upon a roadway divided into 3 marked lanes for traffic under the rules applicable thereon;
(d) Upon a city street designated and signposted for one-way traffic.
II. Upon all roadways any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
III. Upon any roadway having 4 or more lanes for moving traffic and providing for 2-way movement of traffic, no vehicle shall be driven to the left of the center line of the roadway, except when authorized by official traffic control devices designating certain lanes to the left side of the center of the roadway for use by traffic not otherwise permitted to use such lanes, or except as permitted under I(b) hereof.
Source. RSA 262-A:15. 1963, 330:1. 1981, 146:1, eff. Jan. 1, 1982.
I. Upon all roadways of sufficient width a vehicle shall be driven upon the right half of the roadway, except as follows:
(a) When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction under the rules governing such movement;
(b) When an obstruction exists making it necessary to drive to the left of the center of the way; provided, any person so doing shall yield the right of way to all vehicles traveling in the proper direction upon the unobstructed portion of the way within such distance as to constitute an immediate hazard;
(c) Upon a roadway divided into 3 marked lanes for traffic under the rules applicable thereon;
(d) Upon a city street designated and signposted for one-way traffic.
II. Upon all roadways any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
III. Upon any roadway having 4 or more lanes for moving traffic and providing for 2-way movement of traffic, no vehicle shall be driven to the left of the center line of the roadway, except when authorized by official traffic control devices designating certain lanes to the left side of the center of the roadway for use by traffic not otherwise permitted to use such lanes, or except as permitted under I(b) hereof.
Source. RSA 262-A:15. 1963, 330:1. 1981, 146:1, eff. Jan. 1, 1982.
Post by: K Frame on July 15, 2007, 08:23:52 AM
Another fantasy brought to you courtesy of Fisgoat or whatever you're calling yourself these days.
Post by: K Frame on July 15, 2007, 08:25:58 AM
The turn lane is NOT there to help you merge onto a busy road. It is ONLY for people making left turns OFF of the road.
Varies by location actually. Here in Corpus it is a legal move to use the turn lane to merge from.
Also, in Texas the law is that the left lane is for passing only. Kinda negates the speed-limit-in-the-left-lane-is-OK argument.
I believe it's also legal in Virginia.
Lord knows I see enough cops doing it.
Post by: K Frame on July 15, 2007, 08:29:59 AM
God almighty.
Here you are coming in with this pack of self-serving crap, which essentially breaks down into "I'll make my own rules for the highway, and screw everyone else," then you try to don the saintly garb of Mr. Highway Safety advocate.
Post by: K Frame on July 15, 2007, 08:32:09 AM
Former boss of mine was the most aggressive driver I've ever seen. She was a complete and total nut case behind the wheel.
I flatly refused to travel with her.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2007, 09:15:07 AM
If you are in the front of the pack in the left lane, it is your obligation to get over or pass.
I know that's the current dogma. Why?
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Blocking people from passing you makes the road much less safe than just driving fast. As one defensive driving instructor told us once; if someone is tailgating you, your attention is focused on him and his on you. Neither of you is putting as much attention as you should to just driving. It doesn't matter whose fault you think it is.
Why do you get to say it's my fault, but then tell me that my opinion on that subject doesn't matter? Why is the person in the left lane considered to be blocking? Why can't we all just drive in whatever lane is available? Why am I responsible to allow someone to drive faster, when I am simply obeying the law? If you want to drive faster than the speed limit, it is up to you to find a way around me. I have no desire to hold you back, but I don't understand why the burden falls on me to accommodate you.Quote
64 in a 60 in Houston would piss of about 60% of all drivers on the road. Stop being stubborn and selfish. Show a little common courtesy and stay to right.
Again, I am blamed for other drivers impatience and bad judgment. Courtesy involves clogging up the right lane, to make it more difficult and dangerous to enter the highway? Perhaps the speeders should demonstrate common courtesy by respecting the fact that I am also using the road, that I'm driving the speed that won't get me pulled over and up my insurance rates, and simply go around me when they get the chance. If they're that upset by the speed limit, perhaps they should contact their representatives, rather than blaming me. Quote
IMHO, if you have to drive the speed limit to feel safe, then you really aren't one of those really good drivers...or else you just aren't paying attention.
I think most speed limits are too low. But I'm tired of getting pulled over and paying tickets.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2007, 09:17:17 AM
"I was speaking of what would make sense for safe driving, not about law."
God almighty.
Here you are coming in with this pack of self-serving crap, which essentially breaks down into "I'll make my own rules for the highway, and screw everyone else," then you try to don the saintly garb of Mr. Highway Safety advocate.
God almighty.
Here you are coming in with this pack of self-serving crap, which essentially breaks down into "I'll make my own rules for the highway, and screw everyone else," then you try to don the saintly garb of Mr. Highway Safety advocate.
The irony. You would know a lot about being self-serving.
Post by: Parker Dean on July 15, 2007, 09:35:24 AM
I notice you blame those who are calmly driving at the legal speed limit, rather than those who wish to break the speed limit.
Yes, and I notice that you are exonerating those breaking the law to keep right when not passing. Why would that be?
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Yesterday, I was driving 64 in a 60 mph zone, in the far left lane of a six-lane highway (three lanes each way). One of my "victims" passed me in the middle lane, extending a middle finger of friendship. He then pulled into my lane, with only a foot or so of clearance, and quickly decelerated to about forty miles per hour. I'm fairly certain I was not at fault for his potentially lethal behavior.
Yet at the same time if you had not been where you shouldn't have been you might not have received the other persons gesture of appreciation. I seem to recall something about responsible firearm owners trying to disengage from potentially dangerous situations. Apparently this does not apply to driving.
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Holier-than-thou - How do you know that they're thinking?
How do I know? Heck, you're doing it here. You're portraying yourself as the saint because you try to maintain the posted speed limit, regardless of actual road conditions, and that everyone else is a sinner. AKA speed demons.
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If both lanes are traveling at the speed limit, then please explain how safety is enhanced by clearing the left lane for those who choose to go faster than the posted speed? Especially when this will often dangerously clog the right lane for those attempting to exit or enter the road?
Already covered by other posts
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Let them learn some patience.
And you're the one that's gonna teach it to 'em, right? Those eeeeeevvviiilll speed demons...
Post by: Paddy on July 15, 2007, 09:37:18 AM
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However, drivers who are already on the road, and who want to drive faster, have the right of way and we must leave the left lane clear for them. Is that accurate?
This question got my curiosity (about what the legal requirement is). Sure enough, per the California Vehicle code says "21650. Upon all highways, a vehicle shall be driven upon the right half of the roadway, except as follows:" then it goes on with exceptions, like passing. So there is a requirement to remain in the right lane (except when passing, etc.) I didn't know that because it's never, and I mean never enforced here. If there is no such requirement in your state (and there might as well not be if it's not enforced), think of it this way. Courtesy just makes life easier. It costs nothing to pull over and let somebody pass. An analogy might be walking around a crowded public place. Do you continue to walk in a straight line to your destination oblivious of everyone around you? Or do you step around some, stop for some, etc.?
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2007, 11:10:20 AM
fistful, what alternate universe do you live in where everyone drives the speed limit or even comes close to diving at the same speed? It is pointless to use that as your answer to any and all traffic problems since it doesn't happen and never will. Most of the highways I use in Texas have 60 to 70 MPH speed limits. You see cars driving anywhere from 55 to 85. You have to adjust driving to fit that. Demanding that everyone drive the speed limit because you think they should is foolish.
Well, speaking of alternate 'verses, where did I say that?
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Let other drivers drive the speed they are comfortable with just don't hog the road. If others want to risk traffic tickets, that is their business.
Fine. It's also their business to find a way around me.
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If you are going to drive slow in the left lane just because you want to, don't be surprised when people get upset with you. You brought it on yourself.
1. I'm not driving slowly, I'm driving slightly above the speed limit.
2. I'm not in the left lane just because I want to be, but because it is safer for everyone that I drive there, in many cases.
3. I did not bring it on myself. They are upset because they have the mistaken notion that the left lane is for passing.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2007, 11:14:31 AM
I notice you blame those who are calmly driving at the legal speed limit, rather than those who wish to break the speed limit.
Yes, and I notice that you are exonerating those breaking the law to keep right when not passing. Why would that be?
That should be pretty obvious. It is because I believe that the passing lane superstition makes for dangerous road conditions.
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Yet at the same time if you had not been where you shouldn't have been you might not have received the other persons gesture of appreciation.
Incorrect. The other driver was angry because he has been indoctrinated with silly ideas about the left lane. I was obviously not slowing him down, as he was able to pass me. I don't know where some of you get the idea that I'm trying to make other people stay within the speed limit. I really don't mind if others speed. What I object to is being made to accommodate them.
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2007, 11:20:22 AM
Courtesy is all I'm asking for. Demanding that I stay to the right isn't courteous at all. It's just senseless.
Post by: drewtam on July 15, 2007, 11:28:07 AM
Also, I remember being taught in driver's ed that the interstate driver has a responsibility to help merge the on ramp vehicle. You can't and shouldn't force these guys to drive on the shoulder cause no one will let them merge. Of course, they have a responsibility to achieve highway speeds at the end of the acceleration lanes.
Drew
Post by: Dannyboy on July 15, 2007, 11:44:27 AM
That should be pretty obvious. It is because I believe that the passing lane superstition makes for dangerous road conditions.
I'm pretty sure I have seen a few people mention laws in their state that require drivers to stay right unless passing. My state, New Jersey, is another. So, um, what part of "it's the law" makes you think it's superstition?
Post by: Perd Hapley on July 15, 2007, 12:22:58 PM
Post by: MechAg94 on July 15, 2007, 12:23:46 PM
Riley,
Courtesy is all I'm asking for. Demanding that I stay to the right isn't courteous at all. It's just senseless.
Why do you ask for courtesy when you obviously give none? That is just plain arrogance.
Courtesy is all I'm asking for. Demanding that I stay to the right isn't courteous at all. It's just senseless.
Post by: MechAg94 on July 15, 2007, 12:25:17 PM
Uh, the superstition crack is mainly a joke. The question is why there is any such custom or law of staying to the right. I just use "superstition" as a way of suggesting that the practice is ill-founded.
Fistful, the reason for the law was explained on the last page. And do note that the Texas law on the subject mentioned the "normal speed of other vehicles". It did not mention the speed limit at all.
Post by: MechAg94 on July 15, 2007, 12:38:06 PM
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Why do you get to say it's my fault, but then tell me that my opinion on that subject doesn't matter? Why is the person in the left lane considered to be blocking? Why can't we all just drive in whatever lane is available? Why am I responsible to allow someone to drive faster, when I am simply obeying the law? If you want to drive faster than the speed limit, it is up to you to find a way around me. I have no desire to hold you back, but I don't understand why the burden falls on me to accommodate you.
If you are blocking the only passing route (normally the left lane) then it IS your fault. The road is much safer if everyone can go their own speed. It is much more dangerous when 20 cars are piled up behind you because you are driving in the left lane and not allowing them to pass.Your statements are a good example of the self-serving arrogant attitude of some drivers on the road. You think that just because you are driving legally, that you have no obligation to be courteous to other drivers. You think that you are driving fast enough so everyone else can just sit behind you and "be patient".
I am comfortable with the way I drive and know what safety concerns I normally need to worry about. However, I don't presume to think that everyone else should drive just like me. They can drive slower or faster, I don't care. I appreciate slower drivers who make an effort to get out of the way and I try to pass on that courtesy to drivers who want to go faster than me.
Please pardon me if my comments are getting too heated. This type of thing is something I speculate on while driving. It is seldom I get to argue with someone directly about it.
Post by: Sergeant Bob on July 15, 2007, 02:57:10 PM
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If you are blocking the only passing route (normally the left lane) then it IS your fault. The road is much safer if everyone can go their own speed. It is much more dangerous when 20 cars are piled up behind you because you are driving in the left lane and not allowing them to pass.
Werd! I have over a million accident free miles in an 18 wheeler, and one of reasons is because I almost never go the same speed as the rest of the traffic. About the only time I run with a pack of other vehicles is when Fistful is out there in the hammer lane going 55 mph (because he can, and he knows better than everyone else on the road) and causes a humongous clustertrucking traffic jam when everyone has to hit the brakes to keep from slamming him in the a$$ or running over the top of him and flattening him like a pancake (that was very long sentence).
Yeah, it might be legal and you might be "right", but then again, you might be "dead right".
I've seen it happen many, many times.
Post by: armchair warrior on July 15, 2007, 04:03:17 PM
I read somewhere that all Americans think their the best drivers
in the world and other drivers should take lessons from them.
I fall in there somewhere.
My 2 cents:
The person on the highway has the right of way BUT it is
a ticket able offense to prevent/interfere with someone merging.
I sometime like to drive in the left lane where the air is rarefied,
but after a short while somebody is on my a$$.I move over,not that hard
really.
Driving in the SF bay area is stressful to say the least.I don't like to
get to work/home all pissed off.I try to take it easy.
Post by: Fly320s on July 16, 2007, 03:12:51 AM
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If you are blocking the only passing route (normally the left lane) then it IS your fault. The road is much safer if everyone can go their own speed. It is much more dangerous when 20 cars are piled up behind you because you are driving in the left lane and not allowing them to pass.
Just out of curiousity, what is your reasoning behind this?
I tend to think that everyone travelling at the same speed is a safer environment since it leads to more predictability, less lane changing, and fewer speed changes.
Post by: 280plus on July 16, 2007, 03:21:30 AM
Post by: mountainclmbr on July 17, 2007, 06:48:28 PM
Post by: Paddy on August 16, 2007, 01:55:00 PM
Thank you.
Post by: jnojr on August 16, 2007, 02:37:12 PM
maybe back East somewhere that's a "passing" lane, but that ain't the case out here. It's just another lane.
Post by: wooderson on August 16, 2007, 03:25:00 PM
I-35 in Texas is the absolute worst. I've been making a run from Ft. Worth to Llano (about 70 miles NW of Austin) lately and will be making it many many more times over the coming months. Doing the limit is impossible, even on relatively deserted stretches. You're either stuck behind Grandma doing ten under or you've got to do 80 to keep in the passing lane. (Come to think of it, 20 west to El Paso is almost as bad... but I've never really encountered this in other states - NM, AZ, etc., people know how to drive.)
Post by: mfree on August 17, 2007, 06:39:07 AM
1. Stay in the bubble. If I emerge from a pack of traffic going 60 and a couple hundred yards ahead is another pack going 62, I won't at 65 and try to climb through them... I'll slow to 61 and "stay in the bubble".
#1 there saved my ass in my *one* lone accident. I was toodling along the interstate at about 60 when my right front rapidly deflated. Trouble was, the road was wet and oily and I couldn't steer fast enough to keep the drag from stealing my stability; ended up overcorrecting and nailing the divider head on, bouncing off, then I took it off the highway. Point is, there was nobody beside me to bounce off of, and everyone behind me was far enough back that I didn't cause a big pile-up.
2. Remember that changing lanes is the SINGLE MOST HAZARDOUS thing you can done while driving.
3. Mirrors don't cut it, turn your head.
4. Plan to the horizon.
5. Remember your place. IF I'm merging I try to remember that the oncoming traffic doesn't have to do a damn thing for me, and I won't expect them to. If there's no hole, I'll drag my feet while scoping one out if the ramp is long enough, then floor it and merge at speed. There is no stopping at the end of the ramp PERIOD; if you do that, you've failed to plan.
When I'm driving on the highway, I'll follow the midspeed pack unless my exit is a couple miles ahead, then I'll assume the easiest lane to get there far early and assume that lane's speed. No pressure, no problems. Doing things at the last minute will get you creamed.
Oh, and if you expect everyone else to be an inattentive doof or a screaming lunatic, then there are no surprises when they are :-D
----
PS I've also been called the ninja driver. I've gotten exceedingly good at timing the lights on my route and picking the lane that's empty at the light early. There's one stretch of road where I've passed 10-15 cars driving 10mph under the limit because I'm driving 25mph and get to the light *just* as it turns green for everyone else to try and scramble up to 35. It's all about planning.
Post by: MechAg94 on August 17, 2007, 07:50:22 AM
Quote
If you are blocking the only passing route (normally the left lane) then it IS your fault. The road is much safer if everyone can go their own speed. It is much more dangerous when 20 cars are piled up behind you because you are driving in the left lane and not allowing them to pass.
Just out of curiousity, what is your reasoning behind this?
I tend to think that everyone travelling at the same speed is a safer environment since it leads to more predictability, less lane changing, and fewer speed changes.
There is no such thing as everyone driving the same speed unless everyone is driving slow. At least that is the case around Houston. Someone always wants to go faster. Sometimes that is me.
Personally, I can live with most people who go slow as long as they are consistent. I'll pass them one way or another. I get more irritated by people who speed up when you try to pass them.
Post by: MechAg94 on August 17, 2007, 07:51:32 AM
Also, I try not to assume I am an above average driver (very difficult). I just drive well the way I drive. If I slow down or speed up I am out of my norm and have to pay more attention.
Post by: CAnnoneer on September 23, 2007, 06:50:20 PM
fistful, you are right in principle, but in practice driving like that in LA will get you killed. There are way too many drivers that think the speed limit is just a suggestion. In fact, that seems to be the rule, not the exception. It is far safer to move at the speed of the pack. Highway patrol and police have ignored "pack speeding" on ALL occasions I have observed. The guy that gets a ticket is the loner that does 95 on an empty road.
Nicety has nothing to do with letting people merge or change lanes in front of you. It is common sense to do so. It is the safer way to go, especially when it is obvious the merger has very little visibility and a short ramp. I'd rather make it from A to B in one piece than worry about if I have the right of way over the merger. By the way, insisting on your right of way is illegal in California, because it is unsafe. However, in practice you sometimes cannot change lanes in heavy traffic without making it abundantly clear that unless they back down, you will hit them. Go figure. It is a crazy world.
Yet, the thing that really pushes my button is when they speed up to prevent you from merging/entering their lane because they saw you signalling. That's just plain dumb reckless.
Post by: wooderson on September 23, 2007, 07:13:10 PM
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Yet, the thing that really pushes my button is when they speed up to prevent you from merging/entering their lane because they saw you signalling. That's just plain dumb reckless.
I only do that if I happened to notice a 'W the President' sticker.
Post by: Boomhauer on September 23, 2007, 07:24:29 PM
I still have nightmares. I'm not going back without an M1A2 Abrams.
Post by: Bogie on September 23, 2007, 07:27:21 PM
Lived near Hwy 40 (folks from out of town call it I-64, but the locals know different...) and Forest Park for years.
FERCHRISSAKE, PEOPLE! PICK A LANE AND STAY IN IT! AND WHEN A SIGN SAYS THAT A LANE IS GONNA CLOSE, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU HAVE A PASS TO DRIVE 55MPH TO THE HEAD OF THE LINE TO TRY TO MERGE!!!!
Post by: CAnnoneer on September 23, 2007, 07:44:39 PM
I still have nightmares. I'm not going back without an M1A2 Abrams.
Many a time I have dreamed of an armored car or a surplus Sherman.
There is this quiet rage of knowing a stranger puts your life in great risk for no intelligible reason.Motocyclists are in two categories:
1) real bikers and chopperboys - never a problem, they drive like cars, very cool - kudos!
2) young dumbasses - completely reckless, zooming in and out, driving at 90 on the lane separator - burn in hell!
Post by: doczinn on September 23, 2007, 07:51:20 PM
Post by: CAnnoneer on September 23, 2007, 07:53:44 PM
In California, lane-splitting (riding on the white line) is legal.
First time I hear this, yet I have lived in LA area for over 13 years now. Can't imagine how this can be safe.
Post by: Boomhauer on September 23, 2007, 07:56:58 PM
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In California, lane-splitting (riding on the white line) is legal.
So is having an extended towing mirror...
Idiots.
Post by: doczinn on September 23, 2007, 08:01:55 PM
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Can't imagine how this can be safe.
IIRC, it's legal only in certain circumstances. There's either a max speed, or a max speed differential from the cars, or it's only when cars are stopped, or something like that.
Post by: Mabs2 on September 23, 2007, 08:06:22 PM
Post by: Fly320s on September 24, 2007, 11:20:27 AM
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Can motorcycle riders "split" lanes and ride between other vehicles?
Lane splitting by motorcycles is permissible but must be done in a safe and prudent manner.
Lane splitting by motorcycles is permissible but must be done in a safe and prudent manner.
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Old thread is old.
[frail British voice] It's not dead yet. [/voice]
Post by: CAnnoneer on September 24, 2007, 03:33:51 PM