Georgia Arms wadcutters

[MillCreek]

https://revolverguy.com/georgia-arms-ultimate-defense-38-spl-wadcutter/

I have read about these in my Facebook feed and I might see if I can find a box, especially since Federal eliminated the HST personal defense wadcutter.

[HankB]

These are lightly-loaded rounds for persons who have some physical disability that prevents them from dealing with the recoil of full power ammunition. They're certainly better than the .22 rimfire option some people recommend, but I hardly would call them "ultimate" anything - in fact, they seem to be just a relabeling of the old mid-range .38 special target load. (MAYBE they added a few tenths of a grain of powder to bring them up to standard pressures.)

"Atomic Ammunition" catalogs a 148 grain +P lead hollow point which is basically a hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards - with higher velocity and that huge hollow point, I would expect the terminal effect to be better than the Georgia Arms offering. Buffalo Bore also makes a 150 grain "standard pressure" hard full wadcutter which would probably outperform the GA load.

I have loaded reversed HBWCs which will outperform most factory loads, but nowadays factory ammo has advanced to the point where IMHO premium loads from major manufacturers are good choices for personal defense. YMMV, but with the possible exception of Buffalo Bore, I don't have a good feeling about the aforementioned ammo makers. I generally buy premium loads from Remington, Speer, Federal, and Winchester for my defensive ammo - there are a few other brands I might consider.

[griz]

The GA ammo I've used in the past was all good, quality stuff.  This is the first I've seen where it came in a box of 20.  All I've seen was a bag of 50, or more, rounds.

I'm sure those are fine target wadcutters, but I'm not a believer that those are "ultimate", even if they're 50 FPS faster than other brands.

[230RN]

These are lightly-loaded rounds for persons who have some physical disability that prevents them from dealing with the recoil of full power ammunition. They're certainly better than the .22 rimfire option some people recommend, but I hardly would call them "ultimate" anything - in fact, they seem to be just a relabeling of the old mid-range .38 special target load. (MAYBE they added a few tenths of a grain of powder to bring them up to standard pressures.)

"Atomic Ammunition" catalogs a 148 grain +P lead hollow point which is basically a hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards - with higher velocity and that huge hollow point, I would expect the terminal effect to be better than the Georgia Arms offering. Buffalo Bore also makes a 150 grain "standard pressure" hard full wadcutter which would probably outperform the GA load.

I have loaded reversed HBWCs which will outperform most factory loads, but nowadays factory ammo has advanced to the point where IMHO premium loads from major manufacturers are good choices for personal defense. YMMV, but with the possible exception of Buffalo Bore, I don't have a good feeling about the aforementioned ammo makers. I generally buy premium loads from Remington, Speer, Federal, and Winchester for my defensive ammo - there are a few other brands I might consider.

Agree.  I tried  reversed wadcutters in reloads but bore leading became more of a problem with greater effectiveness.  I'm surprised nobody mentioned that thus far.

Recoil is obviously a tradeoff with bullet energy versus gun mass.  My problem with recoil in my J-Frame is it rotates the gun in my hand so my finger slips off the laser button and I have to resettle the gun in my hand.  i'm kind of relying on the good graces of the President of the Cosmos to make that first shot count.

Terry, 230RN

[MechAg94]

Underwood has some wadcutter ammo in 38 special.  The site says it is 1000 feet per second.  I got a couple boxes for Christmas for a couple people I know who rely on that caliber (in part).  I don't think I kept any of it. 

[HankB]

Agree.  I tried  reversed wadcutters in reloads but bore leading became more of a problem with greater effectiveness.  I'm surprised nobody mentioned that thus far.

In the GA loads described in the OP, they use ZERO brand bullets. A long time ago I tried ZERO bullets, and they leaded so badly that after six shots, I could barely see the rifling in the bore. I had no such problem even with heavily loaded Speer HBWCs, but the best HBWCs seemed to be the original style Hornady bullets, BEFORE they went to the "improved" knurled waffle texture on the bearing surface.  I remember reading that some people put gas checks on the nose of the HBWCs before loading them backwards, but I never tried it myself. (In addition to reduced leading, it was supposed to prevent high pressure loads from "blowing through" the thin lead at center of the hollow base cavity.)

. .  i'm kind of relying on the good graces of the President of the Cosmos to make that first shot count.

You're in trouble.

[RocketMan]

i'm kind of relying on the good graces of the President of the Cosmos to make that first shot count.

Terry, 230RN

Except the current President of the Cosmos wants you to use a double-barrel shotgun to fire a warning shot over their heads, or a shot through the door, or shoot their legs, or whatever his current direction and everchanging command is.

[lee n. field]

https://revolverguy.com/georgia-arms-ultimate-defense-38-spl-wadcutter/

I have read about these in my Facebook feed and I might see if I can find a box, especially since Federal eliminated the HST personal defense wadcutter.

Interested to hear your take on them.

Interesting how the consensus/buzz mutates over time.  Now, conventional wisdom is all about making lots of holes, and controllability.  .22lr because you can get a lot more of them in the same space.

My understanding is the HST Micro .38 was discontinued because they couldn't get the concept (deep seated JHP wadcutter) to work consistently.  I've got a couple boxes worth, from when Wally World caved to the Demandy Moms and pulled most ammo.

Agree.  I tried  reversed wadcutters in reloads but bore leading became more of a problem with greater effectiveness.  I'm surprised nobody mentioned that thus far.

That's essentially what the HST Micro is.  Pic from Federal's site.  JHP, seated flush with case mouth, with big deep cavity.  The gel tests, so I hear, are inconsistent.

[zxcvbob]

I like hardcast wadcutters seated just proud of the case mouth and loaded to about 800 fps.  Recoil is not bad even from a lightweight gun.  They don't expand but they make full-caliber deep holes and should punch through bone just fine.  If anything, they over-penetrate.

[lee n. field]

hardcast wadcutters seated just proud of the case mouth

The existence of this stuff** let me to experiment with .44 special wadcutters.  I end up with a load* that feels a lot like shooting .45 ACP out of a 1911, but out of a Charter Bulldog -- not bad at all.

*200 grain wadcutter, 4.6 grains Bullseye.

**Three bucks a round.  Ouch!

[MechAg94]

Interested to hear your take on them.

Interesting how the consensus/buzz mutates over time.  Now, conventional wisdom is all about making lots of holes, and controllability.  .22lr because you can get a lot more of them in the same space.

My understanding is the HST Micro .38 was discontinued because they couldn't get the concept (deep seated JHP wadcutter) to work consistently.  I've got a couple boxes worth, from when Wally World caved to the Demandy Moms and pulled most ammo.

That's essentially what the HST Micro is.  Pic from Federal's site.  JHP, seated flush with case mouth, with big deep cavity.  The gel tests, so I hear, are inconsistent.

Seems like that would open up too fast.  I guess it depends on bullet design.

[lee n. field]

Seems like that would open up too fast.  I guess it depends on bullet design.

What I remember reading (Interwebz rumor, YMMV) is, expand greatly and not penetrate so much, or not expand and penetrate adequately.

[MechAg94]

That sounds about right.  My personal experience is shooting 1 gallon jugs of water.  Good hollow points open up and penetrate through at least 3 jugs.  I have seen Hornady 380 HP ammo open up wide and only go into one jug.  Other 380 ammo that doesn't open as wide penetrates much better.  I always figured 1 jugs was not enough.  I haven't done much with 38 special. 

[230RN]

Well, a lot depends on the alloy -- including the leading problem. I could not cast wadcutters (no mold) so I cast whatever alloy resulted from reclaiming bullets out of my backstop with my gas check bullet mold.  But for reversing hollow-based wadcuttes, I just used factory wadcutters.  That was where I got the leading problem.  They were probably almost pure lead.

I like hardcast wadcutters seated just proud of the case mouth and loaded to about 800 fps.  Recoil is not bad even from a lightweight gun.  They don't expand but they make full-caliber deep holes and should punch through bone just fine.  If anything, they over-penetrate.

I'm not clear on why you bothered, except for being able to reclaim lead.  From what you describe, you might as well use factory jacketed bullets anyway.  ? ? ?

Terry, 230RN

[zxcvbob]

Well, a lot depends on the alloy -- including the leading problem. I could not cast wadcutters (no mold) so I cast whatever alloy resulted from reclaiming bullets out of my backstop with my gas check bullet mold.  But for reversing hollow-based wadcuttes, I just used factory wadcutters.  That was where I got the leading problem.  They were probably almost pure lead.

I'm not clear on why you bothered, except for being able to reclaim lead.  From what you describe, you might as well use factory jacketed bullets anyway.  ? ? ?

Terry, 230RN

I do have a lead wadcutter mold.  And I've seen the difference in the size hole they make in paper vs a wide flat-nosed bullet that makes just as clean a hole but much smaller with a gray ring around it.  I don't know how well that translates to the size hole they make in bad guys.  For full sized service revolvers I load 158 grain soft lead hollow point SWCs. (I think that's called the FBI load)  For compact revolvers I use 148 grain cast wadcutters loaded a little hotter than target loads.  Berry's copper plated wadcutters should work good too.  I've not done any gelatin testing with either; plenty of other people have, but not with my specific loads.

[Kingcreek]

I used to load the WCs for my old model 66 and they were wonderfully accurate.
Reversed hollow base WCs have been around for years but IMO are kind of gimmicky. I have confidence in the modern semi jacketed HP or even softer lead HP.
I don’t remember why but I moved to more of the 158gr LSWC and still have an ammo can full.
The 2 best pistol shots I ever made were with the lead wadcutters over bullseye powder.
I shot a ring neck pheasants head off as it ran away from me down a corn stalk row. (It had a busted wing and couldn’t fly but it sure could run!
Another time I shot a running coyote through the shoulder as it popped out of a ravine and across a hillside at 40 yards.
Both shots were single action and that old 66 has the best trigger of any handgun I’ve ever owned.

[HankB]

IIRC,  several years ago an article in Handloader magazine dealt with reversed HBWCs . . . in .44 and .45 caliber. Seems a European company (in Czech Republic or Slovenia, maybe?) was making bullet molds to cast these bullets. Given a suitable alloy, a moderately warm .44 special would make a good home defense round for folks with .44 Special & .44 Mag revolvers.  (By moderately warm I mean above most commercial .44 Special loads, but still well below .44 Magnum.)

There seems to be at least one source for .44 HBWC component bullets:  https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=280&zenid=u7rndu7qh42pklcdq1ibdd3ks4

[dogmush]

Are these rounds for people? Not bears or hogs or *expletive deleted*it?

FFS, it's 2023. Put the revolver away.

[RoadKingLarry]

Well, a lot depends on the alloy -- including the leading problem. I could not cast wadcutters (no mold) so I cast whatever alloy resulted from reclaiming bullets out of my backstop with my gas check bullet mold.  But for reversing hollow-based wadcuttes, I just used factory wadcutters.  That was where I got the leading problem.  They were probably almost pure lead.

I'm not clear on why you bothered, except for being able to reclaim lead.  From what you describe, you might as well use factory jacketed bullets anyway.  ? ? ?

Terry, 230RN

My early adventures in bullet casting taught me that an undersized bullet is the worst culprit in barrel leading. Hardness of the alloy had little effect if the bullet was undersized for bore. I've never shot a factory cast/swaged lead bullet that didn't lead up a bore.

[230RN]

Kingcreek said,

"Reversed hollow base WCs have been around for years but IMO are kind of gimmicky. I have confidence in the modern semi jacketed HP or even softer lead HP."

I concluded that myself, considering that they were meant to be clean-cutting (for ease of scoring) target bullets and the big appeal was the possibility that, loaded backwards, the big hole would act as a good expanding bullet at low velocities for defense purposes.

What got me off them was the low velocities required to avoid leading.  I didn't need low velocities, thank you.  And I didn't need leading, thank you, thank you.

I figured if I wanted the higher velocities, I'd just use available jacketed or semijacketed bullets but continued casting my own gas check bullets for inexpensive practice and plinking with more or less full powered loads

So I gave up on the idea and the remaining  hollow-base bullets were melted down for my regular gas checks.

End of story.

Terry, 230RN