Any Bible prophecy or angelology scholars? Any "people of the book" speak up

[Stand_watie]

I'll admit the subject in general is something I've generally given a miss in my reading and studies because so much of it seems difficult to understand with any sort of surety. We covered this passage in church this morning, and a couple of references in particular have me scratching my head, who is the speaker? Who is "the Prince of Persia" who is "the prince of Greece", and who is "Michael, your prince"?

Daniel 10:20, 21; Daniel 12:1

 20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.. (12:1)...At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise.

My father, and my pastor, who are both much more knowledgeable than most Christians I know, don't know the answer other than vaguely to believe that it is a reference to angel warfare not explicitly explained in the Bible. My Bible concordance doesn't record an opinion on the specific verse, other than a note that much of Daniel is "controversial" in the eyes of Bible scholars.

Interfaith opinions of those people "of the book" are solicited here. I think an Imam or a Rabbi, or a Mormon elder opinion would likely just as much elucidate me as a pastoral or papal opinion.

[ilbob]

Much of the prophecy in the old testament is like that. It makes a lot of sense after the fact, but as a means of predicting the future, it is not real usable.

[richyoung]

A:  Daniel 10:10-21 gives us a fascinating glimpse into the spiritual world which we cannot see. There are four angels in this passage: 

1. The messenger angel who came to bring the interpretation of Daniel's vision (Daniel 10:10-12). He is not named in the passage.

2. The prince of Persia. This is evidently a fallen angel working under the direction of Satan who operates as the "god of this world" (2Corinthians 4:4). The prince of Persia withstood the messenger angel for twenty-one days (Daniel 10:13) and hindered him from coming to Daniel. By this we know that the prince of Persia is of the evil one. This should not be surprising since Paul warned us, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Ephesians 6:12). Principalities refer to the rule of princes. The prince of Persia was one of these principalities. 

3. Michael, one of the chief princes. Michael comes to the rescue of the messenger angel and relieves him for a time so that he might bring the interpretation of the vision (Daniel 10:13-14). So, who is Michael? In Jude 1:9, Michael is called "the archangel" and he personally contends with the devil. In speaking to Daniel, the messenger angel calls him, "Michael your prince." The personal pronoun "your" is plural (something that is not distinguished in modern English versions). Therefore, Daniel was not being told that Michael was his own personal angel. Rather, Michael was the angel of Daniel's people. He was the prince of Israel. In Daniel 12:1, Michael is called "the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people." It only makes sense that God would take His most powerful angel and put him in charge of his chosen people. 

4. The prince of Grecia. His coming is prophesied by the messenger angel: "Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come." The prince of Grecia (or Greece) would be another of Satan's mighty princes and he will direct the ways of Greece when it becomes the main world empire.   

This passage, therefore, is not about guardian angels. Mostly, it is about angels who have such great power that they are called princes. From their element in the spiritual world, they direct the affairs of nations. The news we read on a daily basis is not just the result of the actions of men. It also reflects the spiritual battles that are going on in the spirit world. The princes of this world are often led by their corresponding princes in the spirit world. These principalities, in turn, are all under the authority of "the prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 6:12)--by Satan himself. We do not and cannot understand all that is going on in the spiritual realm, but it is important for us to understand that the battles we face have another aspect to them; an aspect that is real though it is unseen. Our battle truly is a spiritual one. 

Till He comes, 

Pastor David Reagan

from
http://www.learnthebible.org/q-a-prince-of-persia.htm

[Marnoot]

I was writing a response and hit the wrong button and lost it all. So I'll make this much shorter. Looks like richyoung has posted a lot of what I was going to say, anyway. I'll just add my Mormon elder perspective. We believe the messenger in these verses to be the Lord himself, and as richyoung's quotation points out Michael is Michael the Archangel (Michael the Archangel and Adam the first man are one and the same in Mormon Theology).
Michael comes to assist the messenger in fighting the evil one while the messenger delivers his message and vision to Daniel. Daniel 12:1 is referring to Michael delivering Israel from their troubles in the last days. I need to delve into these chapters a little deeper, I think I'm going to be teaching these in Sunday School in a couple weeks...

[Guest]

The book of Enoch (not canon in most churches) is referenced many times in the existing Bible and elaborates on Michael.

I believe Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Michael and Jesus are the same.

[Perd Hapley]

The book of Enoch (not canon in most churches) is referenced many times in the existing Bible and elaborates on Michael.

I think there is one reference in Jude, but where are the others?  Is Enoch considered canonical in any Christian or Jewish denomination?  I don't think so.   

[Marnoot]

I think there is one reference in Jude, but where are the others?  Is Enoch considered canonical in any Christian or Jewish denomination?  I don't think so.   

Wikipedia says it is canonical in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Coptic Church of Alexandria. I believe the one reference in Jude is the only reference to the Book of Enoch in the bible. I've read some of the book, along with some commentary on it.
I find parts of it extremely interesting, but canon it is not for me. I think if it was indeed an actual book of scripture at some time in the Old Testament era, it has since been corrupted and messed with to an extent that it's probably quite different than the original.

[charby]

Enoch is mentioned in Genesis 5:18-24, Hebrews 11:5, Jude 1:14-15

In the book of Enoch, Enoch is mentioned as the great grandfather of Noah.

[Perd Hapley]

Those first two are references to Enoch himself, not to the "Book of Enoch," or whatever it is called. 

[charby]

Those first two are references to Enoch himself, not to the "Book of Enoch," or whatever it is called. 

You're right, I skimmed over you mentioning the book and just saw Enoch.

[Guest]

I'm not going to argue theology or history with you, Fistful. You're convinced the Bible sprung, fully conceived, from the hand of God to the folks at the Council of Laodecia, and I think that's hooey, and neither of us are likely going to convince the other.

The question was who Michael was and his significance. My post was in response to that question.

FWIW, Enoch is referenced numerous times in both the Bible and other Jewish/early Christian texts.

[Perd Hapley]

Barbara, why is it that every time you talk about Christianity or the Bible, you're almost completely factually wrong?  The Council of what? 

[Guest]

LOL.

Well, that wasn't ironic, was it?

[Guest]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Laodicea

[Perd Hapley]

So, you're saying that I think the Bible magically appeared on Earth at a council I can't even remember hearing about?


Barbara, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  I'm not talking about a difference of opinion or interpretation.  You tend to get the facts wrong.  John Shelby Spong or Gene Robinson would tell you the same thing. 

[Guest]

I don't know for certain where you think it sprung from. I was being somewhat of a smart ass.

Apparently, I was being factually incorrect in thinking you believed it came from where it came from. I'll try to do better in figuring out what you think in the future, to avoid my being unfactual.

[charby]

Oh Boy...  So fistful how do you feel about the Roman Catholic Bible and our apocrypha books in the Old Testament?

[Perd Hapley]

Uh, I don't have much feeling about it either way.  I don't know anything about the translations y'all are using and I have no animosity towards Apocrypha.  You all don't consider them canonical, right, as in having the same authority as the rest of scripture?  So, we're probably pretty close on that score. 

[The Rabbi]

So, you're saying that I think the Bible magically appeared on Earth at a council I can't even remember hearing about? 

Probably becaues you arent a Catholic historian.  But I often wondered at what point christians stopped keeping the Sabbath on Saturdays.  Some Protestants have even challenged the idea that the Sabbath is on Saturday.

[cordex]

  But I often wondered at what point christians stopped keeping the Sabbath on Saturdays.  Some Protestants have even challenged the idea that the Sabbath is on Saturday.

Rabbi,
Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has a book called From Sabbath to Sunday that covers that transition.  I believe the original edition was published by the Pontifical Gregorian University Press.

It is a very interesting debate.

[charby]

Uh, I don't have much feeling about it either way.  I don't know anything about the translations y'all are using and I have no animosity towards Apocrypha.  You all don't consider them canonical, right, as in having the same authority as the rest of scripture?  So, we're probably pretty close on that score. 

We do, same as you look at the bible, its all inspired by God. Catholics look a Micheal the archangel as the General of all Angels and a being that kicks some serious wicked evil ass.

+1 one Rabbi's comment about Catholic historian. I wish I could remember half of what I was taught. Also Catholic bible comes from library at Alexandria if I recall correctly and Protestant bible comes from a different library of old. I think Greek Orthodox Bible also comes from Alexandria and contains even more apocrypha books than the Catholic Bible.

[grampster]

I actually have met my guardian angel.  Named Polarius.  Neither male or female.  They are spirits having a substance of sorts, but do not converse in the normal fashion.  They speak to one's spirit and one just knows what is being conveyed.
They are able to be seen by us when they choose to allow that to happen.

I was not under the influence of any substance at the time.  I was lying in bed and had been dozing, but had drifted into a state were I was not asleep nor awake.  I seemed to be aware of the tv being on and could hear the usual noises. (Swmbo and I were in a hotel in Florida)  I looked up and a sort of radiant being, seemed to be in robes, was standing at the foot of my bed.  I felt secure and actually very content.  I asked him (I'll use that descriptive for lack of what to call him as angels are asexual) who he was and he told me he was my guardian angel.  He did not talk, I just heard the words.  He said that they do not converse in the earthly fashion, but communicate in a way that I could hear.  I asked if he had a name and he said Polarius.  I don't have any other recollection of any other conversation.  I was/am left with a feeling that this was not a dream or an hallucination.  I am convinced that what I saw and heard actually happened and was real.  It left me with a very satisfied and settled feeling about the matter. 

[Perd Hapley]

Ah!  That was you?   

Haven't seen you in a while, how's it going?  They put somebody else on your case.  Now I'm watching Senator Durbin.  Believe me, that's a severe demotion. 

[grampster]

So that is why Sen. Durbin acts like he does.  I wondered where you went.