Who Are the Real Hijackers of Islam?

[roo_ster]

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/256550/who-are-real-hijackers-islam-jonah-goldberg

Article gets at the heart of the matter:
Are the jihadis, splodeydopes, woman-stoners, blasphemer-killers, etc. the real mainstream of Islam?  If so, are not the muslims who preach & practice peaceful co-existence really the hijackers of Islam?

I'd say that the jihadis have hte better of the argument, as for which approach is more orthodox.  The Koran, Haditha, and contemporaneous histories support that view.

The closest analog the West has seen to this is Japanese shinto cult of their emperor and such.  To dissuade the Japanese, we had to kill them by the tens of thousands, bomb Japan into a smoldering ruin, and nuke them.  Twice.

[AZRedhawk44]

The closest analog the West has seen to this is Japanese shinto cult of their emperor and such.  To dissuade the Japanese, we had to kill them by the tens of thousands, bomb Japan into a smoldering ruin, and nuke them.  Twice.

I've made this parallel analysis for the last 9 years.

I wrote my college senior thesis on SCAP reformation of Japanese martial society.

"Westernized" muslims are not mainstream muslims.

[BridgeRunner]

I tend to agree.  I have nothing against the modern, Westernized Muslims, and I am well area of the golden age(s) of the Islamic world, but those are outliers from majority culture to scripture to politics and policy, Islam is fundamentally violent, oppressive, and repressive.  It's more xenophobic than Christianity and more fixated on conquest and conversion than Judaism. 

Sure one can argue that other Western(ish) faiths (as distinct from the East(er) Asian approach to religion) all are violent, oppressive, repressive and fixated on either conquest and conversion and any cost or retention and exclusion at any cost in the case of Judaism, but Islam sure does manage to wrap those things together in a pretty scary package that seems to lead to a mainstream that is unlikely to ever accept things like minimal violence or due process or maybe not killing people unless they've committed a particularly horrific crime, and by particularly horrific crime, I don't mean adultery.  Especially without substantial legal process of some kind.

[Tallpine]

Probably correct but I doubt that the average Muslim cares about much more than feeding their family.

[MicroBalrog]

The most mainstream Muslims - the teachers at the leading Islamic institutions, like Al-Azhar - have condemned the Wahhabis time and time again. Ultraviolent-kill-everybody-Islam depends on rending the relevant suras the hell out of context.

[HankB]

I have a Moslem colleague at work. I've met his family.

His womenfolk (wife & daughters) dress modestly, but like Westerners - no burkas or chadors. The ones old enough drive cars, the daughters attend public schools.

He doesn't lay out a prayer rug in the office several times a day, but he does avoid eating pork. Doesn't insist his meat is halal when there's an office outing.

From what I can tell they're good people, but I have no doubt that many other adherents of that faith would consider them bad Moslems.

They're from Turkey.

[slugcatcher]

I have a Moslem colleage at work. I've met his family.

His womenfolk (wife & daughters) dress modestly, but like Westerners - no burkas or chadors. The ones old enough drive cars, the daughters attend public schools.

He doesn't lay out a prayer rug in the office several times a day, but he does avoid eating pork. Doesn't insist his meat is halal when there's an office outing.

From what I can tell they're good people, but I have no doubt that many other adherents of that faith would consider them bad Moslems.

They're from Turkey.

I work with many westernized/moderate moslems from all over the middle east.  They've lived in the states for many years. Some longer than I have been alive.  All are highly educated (BS, MS, PHD) in physics, electrical, or mechanical fields. Half of them think the Jews should be burned off the face of the earth.  The less devout tend to be the most rational.   When they just start talking about the issue of Israel the moderate ones usually leave the conversation. It's really kind of an eye opener when a couple scientists talk about genocide as if they were discussing the weather.

[MicroBalrog]

I worked, went to school with, and served in the military with many Muslims. This sort of terorrist excuse-making is very rare in my experience, and I mostly encounter it at the university - where I also encounter Jews making the same arguments.

[AJ Dual]

That in a nutshell is the "problem" with Islam.

Pointing at the ultra-fundamentalists and Wahhabis and saying to the rest of Islam, "Why don't you do something about them?", is sort of like pointing at the Westborough Baptist Church, or the neo-nazi World Church of the Creator, or Christian Identity sects, and saying to the Pope, or Lutherans or Presbyterians and saying "Why don't you do something about them?"

Farked 3rd world and Middle Eastern cultural values are as much, if not more, the problem than Islam is.

[makattak]

Farked 3rd world and Middle Eastern cultural values are as much, if not more, the problem than Islam is.

Really?

Let's compare others from those same societies and economic situations and see what removing Islam does:

How many people did the Coptic Christians kill last year?
How many people did the Iraqi Christians kill last year?
How many people did the Pakistani Christians kill last year?

[MicroBalrog]

How many people did Hindus kill?
What about Yezidi, who are Iraqi non-muslims? These are more common in Iraq than Christians, and practice the usual wonderful practices of honor killings.
Africa and the Middle East are known for this stuff, and it cannot be explained by Islam.

[grampster]

Micro, one doesn't need to explain those you mentioned in the context of radical Islam, which is mostly Wahhabi based.  Those you mentioned, don't export their stone aged, religious, murderous, misoginystic tribalism as the Wahhabist's do.  

[MicroBalrog]

Micro, one doesn't need to explain those you mentioned in the context of radical Islam, which is mostly Wahhabi based.  Those you mentioned, don't export their stone aged, religious, murderous, misoginystic tribalism as the Wahhabist's do.  

Radical Islam, though, isn't all Islam. It's concentrated mostly in specific, backwards areas, and expands from these.

[roo_ster]

Radical Islam, though, isn't all Islam. It's concentrated mostly in specific, backwards areas, and expands from these.

"Radical Islam" is the question.  Is it really radical?  Maybe it is more rightly called "Orthodox Islam" and all the Muslims who manage to live their lives with non-muslims peaceably are the heterodox.

If so, bring on the heterodox Islam...and how to we help the heterodoxy along?

[French G.]

I always figure that maybe about 10% of the 1 billion plus muslims are pure crazy or provide active aid and comfort to the crazy. Another 30% or so go about normal lives but smile inside whenever an American gets blown up. 30% are pro-western or just plain pro living their own life and getting ahead.

Matters not, the minority is carrying the message of islam and drowning out the others. So. I agre, the moderates come off as the hijackers. Their silence is complicity. The moderate muslim states should be the first to attack the Taliban and their ilk. We cannot clean up their mess.

[sumpnz]

I work with many westernized/moderate moslems from all over the middle east.  They've lived in the states for many years. Some longer than I have been alive.  All are highly educated (BS, MS, PHD) in physics, electrical, or mechanical fields. Half of them think the Jews should be burned off the face of the earth.  The less devout tend to be the most rational.   When they just start talking about the issue of Israel the moderate ones usually leave the conversation. It's really kind of an eye opener when a couple scientists talk about genocide as if they were discussing the weather.

QFT.

I worked a Pakistani engineer that had lived in the USA for 30 years.  He had a Ph.D and was generally regarded as a very good engineer.  He honestly believed that THE JOOOOOOOS engineered the Asian financial collapse of the late 1990's, and that there was a Zionist conspiracy to control the world, and that Isreal should be exterminated. 

Worked with another engineer (forget his nationality, Arab of some flavor - might have been Lebenese or Syrian) that was a total playboy.  He did his prayers, been to Mecca, etc.  But he was quite rational and normal, and would probably fit in very well with this crowd in terms of politics. 

Another guy that I knew was from Bangladesh.  Had dinner at his house.  His girls were typical American pre-teenagers, if perhaps a little more modest.  If I hadn't known from earlier conversations I would not have necessarially known he was even a Muslim.  Although he was fairly religious he was about as in your face about it as the average Presbyterian.  Which is to say not much if at all.  Most Mormons I've known were a LOT pushier.

[De Selby]

Really?

Let's compare others from those same societies and economic situations and see what removing Islam does:

How many people did the Coptic Christians kill last year?
How many people did the Iraqi Christians kill last year?
How many people did the Pakistani Christians kill last year?

Are you seriously asking those questions as if the Copts, Iraqi Christians, and Pakistani Christians do not practice honour killing just like their Muslim neighbours!?

It's amazing how people can convince themselves they've got a picture of what those minorities are like without having spent even five minutes trying to learn about them.  Newsflash for you: it is just as dangerous to be a woman in Pakistani, Iraqi, or Egyptian Christian communities as it is to be a woman in muslim communities in the same places.  They're the same third-world people.

[De Selby]

"Radical Islam" is the question.  Is it really radical?  Maybe it is more rightly called "Orthodox Islam" and all the Muslims who manage to live their lives with non-muslims peaceably are the heterodox.

If so, bring on the heterodox Islam...and how to we help the heterodoxy along?

Well, here's the issue - how did you decide what was orthodox?  By reading the National review's assessment of what Islamic texts support.

Muslims, however, don't consider the National Review to be authoritative.  Nor is most of what they do consider religiously authoritative interpretations readily available in english.  Of course, the pronouncements of their authorities are pretty standard (as Micro points out) for a Judeo-Christian view: no killing innocent people.  I'm not sure how you can discard that for the religious analysis of the National Review, as smart as whoever wrote that might be.

[Scout26]

[Jackie Gleason Voice] And awwwwwwwwway we GO !!! [\JGv]


IBTL.

[De Selby]

[Jackie Gleason Voice] And awwwwwwwwway we GO !!! [\JGv]


IBTL.

Seriously? This discussion looks pretty civil to me.  But then I'm not the one with the stars, of course.

[Perd Hapley]

Muslims, however, don't consider the National Review to be authoritative.  Nor is most of what they do consider religiously authoritative interpretations readily available in english. 

So if Muslims want to be better understood by the Western World, they should get more translations out there?

[De Selby]

So if Muslims want to be better understood by the Western World, they should get more translations out there?

I'd think so, but like most people in the world, they're probably sitting around wondering why everyone doesn't already understand.  I still catch myself doing the "but that's obvious" thing all the time, being an American abroad and all.

[Hawkmoon]

Probably correct but I doubt that the average Muslim cares about much more than feeding their family.

Until their daughter is seen talking to a boy who isn't a male relative.

Then they kill her for bringing dishonor to the family.

[MicroBalrog]

"Radical Islam" is the question.  Is it really radical?  Maybe it is more rightly called "Orthodox Islam" and all the Muslims who manage to live their lives with non-muslims peaceably are the heterodox.

If so, bring on the heterodox Islam...and how to we help the heterodoxy along?

That's the CLAIM you make. Now you want me to discuss it as if it is perfect truth. But it's still a CLAIM.

[roo_ster]

That's the CLAIM you make. Now you want me to discuss it as if it is perfect truth. But it's still a CLAIM.

Might want to read the post again, this time for content, CLAIM boy.