Author Topic: Mental Illness and Mass Murder  (Read 4718 times)

roo_ster

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Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« on: January 11, 2011, 11:55:33 AM »
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/mental-illness-and-mass-murder/?singlepage=true

Cramer discusses the relationship between dangerous mental illness, deinstitutionalization, and mass murder.

His point is that most the folks who have committed mass murder since the 1970s would have been in institutions before deinstitutionalization (and therefore unable to commit mass murder). 

Also, that there has been a sort of stealth re-institutionalization going on in the rise in prison populations.  He writes that a whole lot of prisoners are of the mentally ill sort that would have been in mental hospitals.

Part of one of Clayton's comments in the discussion below the article:
"You are correct that many are now in prisons, not hospitals–although only after they have committed very serious crimes. The book I’ve written references Bernard Harcourt’s work that demonstrates that total institutionalization rate (prison plus mental hospitals) correlates extremely well with murder rates for the period 1928-2000. As mental hospitals were emptied, murder rates rose. As prison populations rose, murder rates fell."

IOW, the following dynamic has occurred:
Prisons
Mental Institutions
Streets
Prisons

Before the advent of state mental hospitals, the violently mentally ill were in prison or hanged.  The mental health reformers agitated for state mental hospitals and the violently mentally ill shifted over to them.  In the 1960s, the agitation on the left for the rights of the mentally ill, plus the thought of cost savings on the right, kicked these folks to the curb.  They caused so dang much crime that we started arresting them and tossing them in prison.

I think two main lessons/characteristics can be gleaned from this:
1. Society will not tolerate violent persons, mentally ill or not, to roam about.  They get put away, one way or another.
2. The seriously and violently mentally ill can not be trusted to take care of themselves, to include self-medication.

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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2011, 11:58:06 AM »
What percentage of the people covered by deinstitutionalization consists of men like Laugher?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

roo_ster

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Re: Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2011, 12:12:21 PM »
What percentage of the people covered by deinstitutionalization consists of men like Laugher?

Danged if I know.

I have, at times, swung between a Szasz-ian view and more traditional views.  I think he has some valid criticisms, but my own experience with some mentally ill folks have proved to me that it is not a myth as Szasz wrote.

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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2011, 12:14:48 PM »
I have, at times, swung between a Szasz-ian view and more traditional views.  I think he has some valid criticisms, but my own experience with some mentally ill folks have proved to me that it is not a myth as Szasz wrote.

Szasz exaggerates, of course.

But I would like to submit that any view that would allow the state to imprison more people (no, I don't care it's not called a prison. You're not allowed to leave? It's a prison.) need to be examined with care.

Besides, society is far less violent - in terms of murders and violent crime - today than it was in the 1960's.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2011, 12:19:30 PM »
i know during regan era budget cuts they released 2/3 of residents of st e's  on monday thousands were too dangerous to be on the street  on wed financial changes cured them to walk free
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Jamisjockey

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Re: Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2011, 12:46:27 PM »
I'm always paranoid and cautious about anything that gives the State power to decide who is mentally competent and who is not.  At least before a crime is comitted.  There are those who would label conservatisim an illness and lock up free thinking peoples.  They've already called for trials of global warming doubters, for starters.
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roo_ster

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Re: Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2011, 12:53:28 PM »
Szasz exaggerates, of course.

But I would like to submit that any view that would allow the state to imprison more people (no, I don't care it's not called a prison. You're not allowed to leave? It's a prison.) need to be examined with care.

Besides, society is far less violent - in terms of murders and violent crime - today than it was in the 1960's.

I agree it needs to be examined with care and certainly more care than was exercised in decades previous. 

Read that comment by Cramer I quoted and the correlation of institutionalization (prison & mental hosp) with murder rates.  I suspect there is something to that...and to the drop in violence.

De-institutionalization began gradually after WW2 for the mentally ill and in the late 1960s for the mentally retarded.  Check out the murder & crime rate data:
www.jrsa.org/programs/Historical.pdf
(of especial interest are murder rates & incarceration rates)

The bump in crime & murder rates began before the 1960s at the time de-inst began.  The fall in rates after we began to re-institutionalize, this time in prisons.

I think that today's relative low murder rates and huge prison populations are not independent functions.

In the end, these folks are going to come to the citizenry's and the authorities' notice.  Right now, we incarcerate the violent and shuffle around the non-violent.  A large proportion of them are going to end up institutionalized.  I think we might want to figure out what is most appropriate

Here is a law review article by Harcourt with a sweet chart on incarceration rates:
www.law.uchicago.edu/files/files/institutionalized-final.pdf
Figure 2 is enlightening in the way that says, "One way or another, if we want our murder rates low, we're going to institutionalize a particular portion of the population"


i know during regan era budget cuts they released 2/3 of residents of st e's  on monday thousands were too dangerous to be on the street  on wed financial changes cured them to walk free

Can't blame it all or mostly on Reagan, as it began in the 1950s.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

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Re: Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2011, 01:11:04 PM »
Some of the charts:









To my eye, these folks come to the notice of the gov't and get "taken care of" in some fashion.  The more the gov't puts away, the lower our homicide rates.

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2011, 01:29:11 PM »
What percentage of the people covered by deinstitutionalization consists of men like Laugher?

There is no way of measuring that.  The nature of mental illness and how we define and treat it has changed so much that it is difficult to measure who would or would have been institutionalized.  

But it is pretty damn low.  We've got oh, a dozen or so mass shooters who are clearly mentally ill over a period of a couple of years, against tens of thousands of people who are or have been treated for psychiatric problems on an inpatient basis, many of whom may have been candidates for institutionalization in the past.

The prison problem is multi-faceted.

First, prisons, like any ongoing stressor, can induce or exacerbate mental illness in someone who may be vulnerable.  Prison is not exactly the kind of place and lifestyle that is conducive to peace of mind.  What would be easily manageable on the outside may be a disabling problem on the inside.  What would not be noticed or measured on the outside becomes more obvious on the inside.  I've lost count of the number of me who have drifted in and out of my life who have some pretty serious mental health problems that they won't seek treatment for--that is less the case in prison.  Fewer incentives for avoiding treatment, perhaps more incentives for seeking treatment, and seriously exacerbating conditions.

Second, it's real easy to scam a mental health provider.  If I was in prison, you bet I'd be scamming all the psych meds I could, just to keep awareness as low as possible.  

Third, poor people are convicted more and receive longer sentences than financially stable people.  Mentally ill people are generally poorer than people without mental illness.  

Fourth, mentally ill people are convicted more than non-mentally ill people.  Mental illness can look scary.

Fifth, and this is one that bugs the heck out of me personally, we seem to have confused evil and mental illness.  Enjoying slicing people up and eating their faces does not a mental illness make, but when reads reports of such things, the immediate response is often "That guy is clearly crazy."  No, that guy is clearly evil.  Being different in a repulsive way is not necessarily mental illness.  Sometimes it's just being evil.  Of course, there are bona fide "illnesses" listed in the DSM that generally cause no distress to their "sufferers", do not appear to be treatable via medication or therapy, and the diagnostic criteria mostly consist of various ways in which in the individual is an real bastard.  I'm not convinced that those belong in the DSM.  

I'm not suggesting that Loughner is not bugnuts insane, but I don't know enough to say that he is, either.  I know he talked about hurting people, threatened people, and liked reading crude expressions of politically-based hatred.  I don't see how those things indicate mental illness.  (Disclaimer: I know some people here have looked at the guy's writing and concluded he was nuts, along the lines of "time is cubed" [thanks, Fistful], and I don't dispute that, I am just saying that enthusiasm about violence and having random thoughts about lashing out at a variety of people is not a mental illness.  It probably indicates someone who is a bad person and who does not have many critical thinking skills.  

However, I'm not disputing the statement that some people with mental illness are violent and that their violence may be related to delusions or lack of appropriate social skills or self-control, but the problem of mental illness in prisons is about a lot more than deinstitutionalization.  I notice that the graph of murder rates show less direct correlation.  The murder rate is also a pretty complicated problem, and a lot of whole murders are also drug-related--often a result of criminalization.  I would be really interested in seeing a breakdown of what sort of murders those are--gang/drug violence, domestic violence, felony murder incident to burglary or armed robbery, or crazy dude randomly shooting people because he thinks God told him to.

About those graphs:  There are a whole lot of other factor that affect the prison population size and its growth since the early 80's, like the War on Drugs and the growing acceptance of expanding and expanding again and expanding again what is a felony and can lead to prison times.  When some of the most onerous mandatory minimum laws were repealed, they were replaced by growing numbers of small-time MJ growers/sellers/users being imprisoned, and the number of other non-drug-related felonies growing exponentially. 

Further, the vast majority of people in mental institutions during the age of institutions were not violent; I don't doubt that many who were, and who were released or not institutionalized, committed some murders.  I don't suppose you have a graph that breaks down institutionalization in mental institutions and prison by sex?  That might be interesting. 

roo_ster

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Re: Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2011, 01:57:14 PM »
BW:

A lot of your points are quite on target, especially WRT evil vs mental illness.  "Hitler/Stalin was crazy!"  Well, maybe he was just an evil man who cared not if others suffered as he grasped for more & more power?

The point that I, for my own part, keep reiterating is:
We are already institutionalizing a lot of these folks, but in prisons.

We have decided we're not going to tolerate mentally ill folks hopping around our public spaces.  We arrest most for non-violent offenses (weed, loitering, public intox, etc.), but some commit much more severe offenses.

Also, there are serious consequences for non-violent mentally ill folks.  All one has to do is see similar charts correlating de-institutionalization with numbers fo people who freeze to death during the winter.

America has found one means of dealing with most of these mentally ill folks (prisons)...and it works, with some exceptions.  Maybe we ought not worry about the marginal mentally ill folks in prison and just be happy that fewer folks are murdered these days?

Oh, not all these nutters end up shooting folks:
http://www.surroundedbyreality.com/Misc/Fires/Metro.asp
"A mentally ill homeless man, Salim Amara, boards a Madison Metro bus with a covered pail of gasoline. After riding for a while he walks down the aisle and empties the bucket on Eric Nelson, soaking him and his fiancée Heather Gallagher. Then he smiled, and lit a match."
Regards,

roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2011, 02:02:02 PM »
It seems to me - and I believe drug prohibition is a moral crime, and people who imprison drug users are evil - that, the system as you explain it is morally superior.

It seems to me that I would rather have a fair trial, with a jury of my peers and an attorney than the view of a doctor (psychiatry is not a science). I'd rather to have a prison term, that ends in a certain number of years.

I'd also rather at least have the opportunity to not break the law. Even if the law is evil and monstrous and should not exist, you can at least avoid prison if you don't break it.
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Tallpine

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Re: Mental Illness and Mass Murder
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2011, 03:07:43 PM »
Quote
One way or another, if we want our murder rates low, we're going to institutionalize a particular portion of the population

Well, there is another option ....   ;)


Quote
It seems to me that I would rather have a fair trial, with a jury of my peers and an attorney than the view of a doctor (psychiatry is not a science). I'd rather to have a prison term, that ends in a certain number of years.

The psyche "trials" are hospital run kangaroo courts in some states.  =(

And I know someone that ended up with essentially a "life sentence" for a minor crime that was meant as a prank.   :mad:
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