Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Balog on January 16, 2013, 09:38:57 PM
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324081704578237722576889786.html
But you know, we've gotta make sure the .gov holds your hand cause otherwise you'd be too stupid to know what to do with your own property.
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Most of the time I would not mind that they are holding my hand, if only it were not twisted up behind my back. Most folks need both hands to brace for the reaming they are getting.
stay safe.
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324081704578237722576889786.html
But you know, we've gotta make sure the .gov holds your hand cause otherwise you'd be too stupid to know what to do with your own property.
I assume you read the comments...
Nicole Hamilton Wrote:
What kind of ignorant fool doesn't know you need a building permit for major renovation? This is the mechanism that sets in motion the rest of process, which includes having the building inspector checking the work along the way. As any consumer who's used contractors and done it right and gotten the permits knows, this is for your protection. The building inspector is an expert (or at least, a lot more so than most homeowners) and they routinely catch mistakes that contractors would just as soon you not know about.
I'm an EE but not an electrician, so for example, even I have trouble catching even some electrical mistakes. When I replaced my furnace last summer, my inspector caught several mistakes I'd missed including things like a 40A circuit breaker with 30A wire. And even if I had caught it, without the inspector's report, I'm sure I'd have had trouble getting the contractor to fix it.
Nor should anyone be surprised that even if the original structure was grandfathered, major renovations often set off the need to bring it up to code.
Anyone can understand that living through a disaster like Sandy must be incredibly difficult. But the author is ignorant and blaming others for his own ignorance.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under the omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
CS Lewis
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I like living in an unincorporated area. I think we're supposed to get permits for stuff like building a shop building or re-roofing a house but nobody out in the county does it.
When the county assessor does come around he always acts like he's nervous about something.
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When I was growing up in Chicago, I remember reading that all electrical work was supposed to be done by a Union electrician, all plumbing by a Union plumber, etc. So even to replace a light fixture or wall switch, you were supposed to hire someone.
Few people I knew did - I know we didn't.
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Those folks who are being battered by local bureaucrats have a unique opportunity right now. Since mostly all of them have the zoning rule problems, they can all go en mass to the local government unit and get many of those ordinances revoked. Groups of people just don't seem to recognize how much power they really have because they have been knuckling under for too long.
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I'm an EE but not an electrician, so for example, even I have trouble catching even some electrical mistakes. When I replaced my furnace last summer, my inspector caught several mistakes I'd missed including things like a 40A circuit breaker with 30A wire. And even if I had caught it, without the inspector's report, I'm sure I'd have had trouble getting the contractor to fix it.
I've met EEs that didn't have the ability to tie their own shoes.
I've also found many similar problems in my own home after a receptical melted and nearly burned my house down- all installed by an electrician and inspected by the local building inspector.
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Are zoning laws (and building codes) bad? Or is this bureaucracy run amok? I grew up in CT right on Long Island sound and my vote is for the latter. Most of my family still doesn't understand why I want to retire to a place like TN or WY instead of moving back there.
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Having seen first hand (13 years as a real estate agent, remember?) the lunacy that often passed for "good construction" in unincorporated areas, I don't mind contruction regs that serve as a baseline for risk mitigation - minimum wire diameter/type, structural integrity, etc. What I do mind is when zoning regs start getting passed for silly, subjective BS. What I absolutely abhor are people who interpret the regs in ways completely counter to common sense or accepted practice, or municipal entities that never utter a peep about a situation for years (sometimes decades) then suddenly whack you with a regulatory "gotcha".
Brad
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. . . What I absolutely abhor are people who interpret the regs in ways completely counter to common sense or accepted practice, or municipal entities that never utter a peep about a situation for years (sometimes decades) then suddenly whack you with a regulatory "gotcha".
This very situation caused a bit of a row last year in Austin, TX. It seems that quite a few older houses had garages converted into family rooms decades ago. Many homes changed hands in the intervening years (sometimes more than once), but the increased living space was duly noted in city records AND TAXED for decades.
Then some busybody searched files at City Hall, and couldn't find 20, 30, or 40 year old building permit records. :O
People were warned of fines, inspections, requirements to undo the old changes, etc., unless they could produce a record of a building permit.
Could YOU produce a building permit for a remodel that took place on YOUR home a generation or two back, if you were only the latest of multiple owners?
There was some talk of "going easy" on the people, provided they paid for a new building permit and new inspection, but as usual, the news media didn't follow up, so I don't know what the resolution was.
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This very situation caused a bit of a row last year in Austin, TX. It seems that quite a few older houses had garages converted into family rooms decades ago. Many homes changed hands in the intervening years (sometimes more than once), but the increased living space was duly noted in city records AND TAXED for decades.
Then some busybody searched files at City Hall, and couldn't find 20, 30, or 40 year old building permit records. :O
People were warned of fines, inspections, requirements to undo the old changes, etc., unless they could produce a record of a building permit.
Could YOU produce a building permit for a remodel that took place on YOUR home a generation or two back, if you were only the latest of multiple owners?
There was some talk of "going easy" on the people, provided they paid for a new building permit and new inspection, but as usual, the news media didn't follow up, so I don't know what the resolution was.
In a just world: tar, feathers, rail
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Why does the .gov have to be involved? If the purpose of this exercise is to mitigate the risk of fire and whatnot, then why not have the insurance company inspect your house? After all, they'll be on the hook if your place does go up in flames. But if they can prove that whatever work you did (or had done) causes the loss, then it's on you. How about a discount on your rate if you have your home inspected by the Insurance company and a higher rate if it's not. Also if the work done by a contractor doesn't meet "code" then the contractor is on the hook. No matter how you slice it, there's no need for the .gov to be involved with what I do with my property.
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Why does the .gov have to be involved? If the purpose of this exercise is to mitigate the risk of fire and whatnot, then why not have the insurance company inspect your house? After all, they'll be on the hook if your place does go up in flames. But if they can prove that whatever work you did (or had done) causes the loss, then it's on you. How about a discount on your rate if you have your home inspected by the Insurance company and a higher rate if it's not. Also if the work done by a contractor doesn't meet "code" then the contractor is on the hook. No matter how you slice it, there's no need for the .gov to be involved with what I do with my property.
To balance my comments in the other thread, I should point out that I %100 agree with this.
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I've been through an insurance company's risk mitigation inspection. Trust me, you'd rather have the city doing it...
Brad
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Why does the .gov have to be involved? If the purpose of this exercise is to mitigate the risk of fire and whatnot, then why not have the insurance company inspect your house? After all, they'll be on the hook if your place does go up in flames. But if they can prove that whatever work you did (or had done) causes the loss, then it's on you. How about a discount on your rate if you have your home inspected by the Insurance company and a higher rate if it's not. Also if the work done by a contractor doesn't meet "code" then the contractor is on the hook. No matter how you slice it, there's no need for the .gov to be involved with what I do with my property.
QFT.
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Let me say this about that:
Thirty-some years ago I lived in Connecticut, and during that time I was chair of the Planning and Zoning Commission for the town in which I lived. The Zoning Enforcement Officer was also the Building Inspector, and I subsequently became licensed as a building inspector -- in Connecticut. So I speak with some knowledge when I say that the premise of that article is bullshit.
Yes, a building permit is required for a major repair. (In fact, technically a building permit is required for most minor repairs, but who's checking?) Yes, the Zoning Officer has to sign off before a building permit can be issued -- and under Connecticut law a repair to an existing structure, even if non-conforming, is ALWAYS allowed. Period.
The only potential fly in the ointment might be Federal coastal area management regulations, which MIGHT prevent rebuilding a home that has been destroyed without raising it above the mean flood elevation. But a home that just got waterlogged and needs to be dried out and get new sheetrock should not have that problem.
Don't confuse building codes with zoning regulations. The building code tells you how the building has to be assembled in order to be safe. That's all. Zoning regulations tell you how you can (and can't) use your land. I was blessed to be on a board with enough conservatives that we basically tired to just go with the flow -- big part of town was residential, the part that abutted the city was business/commercial. Within those there were the usual things such as distances from property lines, maximum building heights are areas as a percentage of land area, maximum sign sizes in the business/commercial zone. We didn't get into how short you had to cut your grass, but I know other towns closer to New Yawk (along what we called the "gold coast") were into that sort of micro-managing.
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Thanks so much for saving lives by forcing people to get .gov approval to do what they want to their own property man. You're a real hero. If it saves just one child's life am I right?
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I'm glad I live in an unincorporated rural area. I had to get a permit for a new well and septic but everything else is wide open for a resident land owner. Don't have to have a building permit but we are supposed to apply for a waiver of permit to just to verify we don't need one and to add it to the tax record.
My mother lives in a home owners assoc- I wouldn't last a day there. She painted her front door blue and they showed up with a copy of the covenant and forced her to reprint it white.
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I'm glad I live in an unincorporated rural area. I had to get a permit for a new well and septic but everything else is wide open for a resident land owner. Don't have to have a building permit but we are supposed to apply for a waiver of permit to just to verify we don't need one and to add it to the tax record.
My mother lives in a home owners assoc- I wouldn't last a day there. She painted her front door blue and they showed up with a copy of the covenant and forced her to reprint it white.
HOA's are voluntary, which is the difference.
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Thanks so much for saving lives by forcing people to get .gov approval to do what they want to their own property man. You're a real hero. If it saves just one child's life am I right?
Was this directed at me?
Building Codes cover more than just houses. Would you want your wife and kids to go shopping in a multi-level mall that wasn't designed or constructed according to basic standards for structural and fire safety?
I've seen the reports of raised decks on private houses that collapsed with parties on them, killing and injuring as many as twenty-five people. If someone wants to build and live BY HIMSELF in a rickety fire trap, that's fine with me. But most people have visitors in their homes from time to time, and most houses get bought and sold. Do you think you can get a mortgage on a house that was NOT built to code specifications and inspected?
Building code requirements are legally-mandated MINIMUM standards for a safe building. You can think of it as government intrusion all you wish but I assure you, when I call them minimum standards (which the code itself says it is), I'm not kidding. I've seen what some people do in their own homes when they try to get by without permits and inspections, and it's very frightening. The codes are a bare minimum. For houses, as an example, most architects and decent tract builders routinely go well beyond the minimum for floor framing because a minimum code floor will support the required loads, but it's so bouncy that people don't like walking on it. We refer to them in the industry as "trampoline floors."
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I hear tell that some insurance companies are now requiring either invoices from a licenced service provider (which they will painstakingly verify) or an on-site inspection of repairs, construction, etc. by the insurance company's inspection personnell before they will insure a property after a remodel/renovation or addition in an unincorporated area. I can't blame them. I grew up in the middle of nowhere and the "built it my own self" house was pretty much the norm. Unfortunately the norm often also included downright appalling methods and materials, not to mention a few folks left homeless when their homebuilt wiring job went "poof". (Three of my friends' families in high school lost everything this way).
Also, don't be surprised when the insurance company stamps a big, red "Denied" on your claim if they spot something not to minimum code, especially if that something was your fault. Building fire because you used an extension cord to wire that addition instead of Romex? Expect the ins company's reply to be, "Not only no but HELL NO!!! ...and oh by the way your policy is canceled".
Brad
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In a civilized society that has a bit of population density and/or sensitive areas such as lakes and rivers for example, reasonable zoning ordinances do more for avoiding neighbor conflicts than government busybodyness.
I don't know about other states, but in Michigan a unit of government must create a Master Plan first and then provide the zoning ordinances that enlivens the MP and conforms to it. Every citizen in the government unit is invited to participate either in person or by mail and it is usually a long process to allow for the input.
I served on a Planning Commission that took our zoning ordinance and completely rewrote it so it conformed to the MP which was heavily influenced by residents, simplified the language, made it be as liberal as possible and took out everything that was stupid. Residents always have the opportunity to make an impact on these things, but choose not to much of the time and then piss and moan about it later. People get the government they deserve. I later served on a Zoning Board of Appeals. I came to understand that good, simple, understandable, common sense zoning is the difference between civilization, chaos, trampling on the environment and neighborhood war. I also discovered that many people don't give a rat's behind about the negative impact they may have on neighbors or in addition in my case inland lakes and a couple of wild rivers.
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Living out in the country where none of this applies, the thought of having some bureaucrat inspect MY WORK before declaring it "ok" is surreal.
I'll fix what I damned well please on my own property, which they already tax too much. If my work is so bad that the place burns down, that's between me and the insurance company.
Hell, the thought of being forced to pay for such nonsense offends me. No *expletive deleted*ing Way.
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Also, don't be surprised when the insurance company stamps a big, red "Denied" on your claim if they spot something not to minimum code, especially if that something was your fault. Building fire because you used an extension cord to wire that addition instead of Romex? Expect the ins company's reply to be, "Not only no but HELL NO!!! ...and oh by the way your policy is canceled".
Brad
In that case, stupid should hurt.
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In that case, stupid should hurt.
The problem is, all too often the stoopid hurts people other than Mr. Stoopid.
Which is why it IS a legitimate concern of the .gov.
Like this one, that only injured 27 people: http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_21346592/deck-collapse-forest-lake-results-multiple-injuries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRP2g3I8Q98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_cE7vbeu2o
A very typical cause of deck collapses, for example, is inadequate attachment of the ledger board the the side of the house. Get a few people moving around out there, and the whole deck just departs from the house, leaving the inboard ends of the joists unsupported. ["What's wrong with that? I ALWAYS toenail the ledger into the concrete foundation. Whaddaya mean I gotta use bolts?"]
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Living out in the country where none of this applies, the thought of having some bureaucrat inspect MY WORK before declaring it "ok" is surreal.
I'll fix what I damned well please on my own property, which they already tax too much. If my work is so bad that the place burns down, that's between me and the insurance company.
Hell, the thought of being forced to pay for such nonsense offends me. No *expletive deleted* Way.
Yeah, the only permits out here in the Montana Outback are for septic systems and totally new electrical work, or replacement of a main breaker box. =)
Zoning ??? Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! :lol: