Zimmerman Case Back in the News

[Ben]

Hmm. I wonder what the reactions would have been if this would have been the first released image of Zimmerman post-incident?



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/03/newly-released-photo-shows-bloodied-george-zimmerman-from-night-trayvon-martin/

[Monkeyleg]

D'ya think they waited over nine months so the race-baiters could milk it for all it was worth?

[lupinus]

But but...

racist shot the boy cause he be hatin!

[Regolith]

Never having been in any serious fights, I had thought "flattened nose" was a slightly hyperbolic euphemism.   

[De Selby]

Zimmerman's injuries aren't going to help if the prosecution proves that the confrontation was initiated by Zimmerman - at this point they're unlikely to change any public opinion as well.

[Jim147]

Zimmerman's injuries aren't going to help if the prosecution proves that the confrontation was initiated by Zimmerman - at this point they're unlikely to change any public opinion as well.

 

Don't you think Martin should have retreated or tried to de-escalate the situation instead of pounding on Zimmerman?

jim

[Regolith]

Zimmerman's injuries aren't going to help if the prosecution proves that the confrontation was initiated by Zimmerman - at this point they're unlikely to change any public opinion as well.

They're going to have a very hard time of that, since there isn't any evidence showing he did. There is decent evidence supporting the fact that Martin jumped Zimmerman; the fact that Martin was a mere 100 yards from his house is particularly damning. He had a large head start over Zimmerman, was younger and in much better shape, and could have covered that distance in less than 15 or 20 seconds, which is much less than the head start he had. The only way Zimmerman could have caught up would be if Martin was waiting in ambush or doubled back.

[De Selby]

You all may believe it'll be a tough case and that it's a travesty - just so long as we are all in agreement that getting out of your car to follow someone who is running away from you is a massive self defense no-no.

On this case, all Ill say is that I cited both statutes in FL under which he'd be charged on this board before It happened.  I guess the special prosecutor and homicide detective are making the exact same errors in legal analysis that I am.

[Doggy Daddy]

You all may believe it'll be a tough case and that it's a travesty - just so long as we are all in agreement that getting out of your car to follow someone who is running away from you is a massive self defense no-no.

On this case, all Ill say is that I cited both statutes in FL under which he'd be charged on this board before It happened.  I guess the special prosecutor and homicide detective are making the exact same errors in legal analysis throwing the same *expletive deleted*it against the wall to see what sticks that I am.

[AJ Dual]

You all may believe it'll be a tough case and that it's a travesty - just so long as we are all in agreement that getting out of your car to follow someone who is running away from you is a massive self defense no-no.

On this case, all Ill say is that I cited both statutes in FL under which he'd be charged on this board before It happened.  I guess the special prosecutor and homicide detective are making the exact same errors in legal analysis that I am.

Considering that Angela Corey is a known loudmouth/loose-cannon, quite likely given this "hill to die on" intentionally, because of all the racial pressure to bring a case, any case in this matter, and no one else being dumb enough willing to take it, I would suggest you reconsider your legal analysis.

And if I am going to take the word of a lefty lawyer I don't particularly like all that much, I'll take Alan Dershowitz over you.

[De Selby]

Considering that Angela Corey is a known loudmouth/loose-cannon, quite likely given this "hill to die on" intentionally, because of all the racial pressure to bring a case, any case in this matter, and no one else being dumb enough willing to take it, I would suggest you reconsider your legal analysis.

And if I am going to take the word of a lefty lawyer I don't particularly like all that much, I'll take Alan Dershowitz over you.

Alan Dershowitz on the news on Alan Dershowitz in the courtroom or law review articles?  Those are two different people, one of which is a more widely known loudmouth than most lawyers in America.  His comments on Fox News about the PC document, that was news showmanship.  The PC affidavit Never has any substance.

I've heard all kinds of theories on this case - how it was charged as depraved heart murder to let Zimmerman go, how it wasn't going to be charged, how it was going to a grand jury to die, etc....like I said, the homicide cop saw the case before it ever hit the news, and once it did, those who said charges were inevitable were proven right.

[sumpnz]

What vested interest do you have in seeing Zimmerman hanged?  Most of us on here have looked at the publically avaiable evidence (which unless there's something youre not telling us is the same as what you have to go by) and concluded the he was dumb to leave his vehicle, but did nothing illegal.

I have nothing more than a detached interest in the case, and it makes little difference to me what happens, except to the extent that I want my rights protected, not trampled, if I find myself in a SD situation that the news twists for some perverse agenda.

[De Selby]

Sump, my interest is in promoting understanding of firearms and self defense laws, and in rightfully distancing gun owners from irresponsible behaviour.  I don't have any investment in Zimmerman apart from that.  I think some attitudes towards self defense on this board are a bit careless at times.

Question:  why do you think what Zimmerman did was dumb?  If you could articulate the reasons, I suspect I'll be able to better explain why I have the view of this case that I do.

[Perd Hapley]

You all may believe it'll be a tough case and that it's a travesty - just so long as we are all in agreement that getting out of your car to follow someone who is running away from you is a massive self defense no-no.

You know, of course, that he wasn't claiming to have followed Martin in self-defense. It was part of the whole Neighborhood Watch thing. So are you saying that a Neighborhood Watch volunteer gives up his right to self-defense?

[De Selby]

You know, of course, that he wasn't claiming to have followed Martin in self-defense. It was part of the whole Neighborhood Watch thing. So are you saying that a Neighborhood Watch volunteer gives up his right to self-defense?

Following people who both a) are making an attempt to run away and b) are unlikely to know who you are, and why you're following, most definitely limits your right to self defense.  Doesn't matter if you're neighbourhood watch or not.

[Monkeyleg]

With all of the second-guessing about what Zimmerman and Martin were thinking, something is being missed here, and that's the racial makeup of Seminole county Florida. The population is 81.6% white, 17.7% Hispanic and 11.7% black. If politics are a factor here, there may be pressure on Corey to not push too far, or not push at all.

[Phyphor]

You know, of course, that he wasn't claiming to have followed Martin in self-defense. It was part of the whole Neighborhood Watch thing. So are you saying that a Neighborhood Watch volunteer gives up his right to self-defense?

If Zimmerman was acting in the capacity as a neighborhood watchman, why didn't he tell Martin this when Martin initially confronted him? It seems like that might have been less likely to trigger a fight than just asking "What are you doing here?"

[TommyGunn]

 
This is deja vu all over again.

Following people who both a) are making an attempt to run away and b) are unlikely to know who you are, and why you're following, most definitely limits your right to self defense.  Doesn't matter if you're neighbourhood watch or not.

As I understand it, Zimmerman, while he had in fact gotten out of his car to follow Martin, had stopped and began returning to his car upon being informed by the 911 operator he was speaking with that he shouldn't do that.
It was then that Martin accosted him and the scuffle ensued that apparantly resulted in Martin  grasping for Zimmerman's gun that prompted Zimmerman's most tendentious action -- shooting Martin.
If this is an accurate version of the story then it would appear to me in fact maybe it was ZIMMERMAN who was retreating and MARTIN who was attacking.
This would appear to paint DeSelby's above comment in a somewhat different light than I'm sure he intended.
But, OTOH, I've heard other iterations of this story as well.
I do, however, sorta wish DeSelby would refrain from taking "potshots" at our boardmembers........

I think some attitudes towards self defense on this board are a bit careless at times.

.......especially when his own facts are not exactly "cast in titanium."

[AmbulanceDriver]

You know, I think it's funny that the circumstances went from Zimmerman "pursuing" Martin, to "chasing" Martin, to "following" Martin.

And you know, here's the really interesting thing.   Zimmerman's account (which we have no evidence to refute, by the way) is that he was returning to his vehicle when he was jumped by Martin.  I think we all agree that Zimmerman was absolutely stupid to get out of his vehicle to follow Martin.  However, stupidity is not criminal.   Nor does stupidity remove the right to self defense.  Frankly, that line of thinking starts to go into the "they deserved it" mentality.

Tell me, De Selby, did Zimmerman "deserve" to get jumped and assaulted for following Martin?  If that's all that he was doing?  Did he "deserve" to get his nose broken, his head slammed into the ground?

[Hawkmoon]

Following people who both a) are making an attempt to run away and b) are unlikely to know who you are, and why you're following, most definitely limits your right to self defense.  Doesn't matter if you're neighbourhood watch or not.

But Martin wasn't attempting to run away. He hid, and ambushed Zimmerman. Even his own girlfriend's rather questionable story of a phone call confirms that.

[Perd Hapley]

Following people who both a) are making an attempt to run away and b) are unlikely to know who you are, and why you're following, most definitely limits your right to self defense.  Doesn't matter if you're neighbourhood watch or not.

So the law chooses to ignore that particular context clue. Interesting.

Sump, my interest is in promoting understanding of firearms and self defense laws, and in rightfully distancing gun owners from irresponsible behaviour.  I don't have any investment in Zimmerman apart from that. 

That would be more believable if you hadn't repeatedly said Zimmerman looked like a sex offender. 

[Monkeyleg]

Sex offender? I thought DeSelby had said that Zimmerman looked like a skinhead.

[longeyes]

Following people who both a) are making an attempt to run away and b) are unlikely to know who you are, and why you're following, most definitely limits your right to self defense.  Doesn't matter if you're neighbourhood watch or not.

The right to self-defense arises at the moment you are attacked.  The actions you describe by Zimmerman do not constitute an attack, however imprudent.

[Jamisjockey]

We've beat this case to death.