Author Topic: Oil temps?  (Read 5110 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Oil temps?
« on: February 11, 2014, 10:52:42 AM »
I noticed last summer and fall that my old dirtbike has a tendency to really blacken its oil and ride rough when it gets hot.

So, last year I installed a speedometer with a temperature gauge on it.  The temp gauge attaches to the top of the cylinder head, where the oil is pumped from the bottom of the case to the top of the engine.

It was running 250+ degrees routinely, and the bike would just COOK the oil if I came to a stop.  300+ if so.

These old XR's don't have oil coolers and rely on a primitive in-frame reservoir oil cooling capacity.

So, last month I put an oil cooler on the bike.  Very nice kit from a fellow here in town that makes them and sells them as a hobby.  His kit has fabbed CNC cut aluminum guards that integrate into the lines of the engine and make the whole setup look very OEM.  On a ride this last weekend, I'm seeing oil temps down around 150 degrees running down the freeway, and 220-ish if I'm doing high RPM but lower air flow stuff in 1st/2nd gear in the dirt.  Coming to a stop and sitting there for awhile the highest I saw was about 240.  Air temp for the ride was about 70 degrees.

If I go from a hard work environment where I'm grunting it in 1st/2nd and have the temp up around 220 or so and get on the highway, temps will drop to 160's almost instantly.

If I kill the bike, the temp will spike to about 270, but obviously that's because there is now no oil flow at the sensor.  Once the bike sheds heat the temp then drops ultimately to whatever ambient temperature is.



Researching oil temp recommendations, it seems most mechanics and engineers recommend oil to be kept right around 220 degrees.  180 is a recommended operating minimum.  I guess it is hard for the oil pump to move cold oil, and bearings aren't properly lubricated if the oil temp is below 180?

Should I be concerned about the low oil temperature when cruising on the highway?  Or is this more likely to be a problem with my temperature sensor which is mounted on the outside of the engine and not actually touching the oil anywhere?  The temp sensor is essentially just a crush washer on the output side of the oil passage pipe from the filter/pump to the top of the cylinder.  I'm wondering if it's not picking up the correct oil temp, or if this location is a particularly cold location in the oil's path through the engine.  Or perhaps increased air flow from high speed riding is cooling the washer and providing a less accurate reading?

My bike is currently burning oil which I believe is due to a faulty valve, probably caused by an overheat condition from the previous config.  I'm going to remedy that obviously, but I think that's ample evidence it ran way too hot before.  I just want to make sure I don't blow out some internal engine bearing by running too cold.  I can get a thermal bypass valve for the oil cooler that only allows oil into the cooler if the oil is over 180 degrees.  Otherwise it bypasses the cooler.  Jagg makes either a manual one, or an automatic one.  But it's expensive.  The manual one would be a PITA turning on and off when hopping between low speed and high speed environments, constantly monitoring and so on.  The automatic one is $80, cheapest I can find.  I'd rather not spend that money on that and earmark it for the top end rebuild.
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brimic

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2014, 11:25:56 AM »
I've heard that synthetic oil tends to run cooler, but I can't confirm.
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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2014, 11:36:54 AM »
I have a temperature gauge on my HD, but it's on the oil tank. Seems to me having one on one of the heads would give you much higher readings.

Normal temps for mine when the bike is up to temperature are 180 to 200 degrees. Much over that and the bike doesn't run well. In one of the Harley Homecoming parades in the 1990's, the temp got up to 230 for quite awhile. The next day I blew a head gasket.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2014, 11:53:52 AM »
I've heard that synthetic oil tends to run cooler, but I can't confirm.

I've heard that too...

I just did the break-in oil change on my Tiger this weekend.  $10/qt!  I need to source synthetic 10w/40 and 20w/50 motorcycle sportbike oil online somewhere and buy it by the case, because Autozone and O'Reilly aren't getting $40 per oil change from me again.  Fortunately I've got 6000 miles before I have to worry about it again.

XR only takes between 2.0 and 2.25qt to fill, but I don't want to use synthetic on it.  I've got a partial case of 10w40 valvoline motorcycle 4 stroke oil left from a previous purchase (used for both the old Shadow and the XR) and that's getting used up in the XR.  And I have reservations about using superninja oil in a 21 year old bike.

I have a temperature gauge on my HD, but it's on the oil tank. Seems to me having one on one of the heads would give you much higher readings.


Yeah, this isn't an oil reservoir temperature.  It's a cylinder head oil input temperature.  Maybe I should see if there's some sort of oil reservoir temp sensor I can try, and get more data.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2014, 12:00:14 PM »
I look at it like this... millions of severely abused XRs have covered literally billions of hard-ridden miles using the same oiling system without them all keeling over dead, Dead, DEAD!!  I figure that's enough indication to not worry too much about it unless you just absolutely want to.  That being said, a cooler is a pretty good idea for any bike.  More than anything, though, are regular, regular, regular, (did I mention REGULAR) oil changes with the proper spec oil.  Not much reserve and hot running means frequent oil changes.  When I was riding a lot during hot Texas summers, like a couple hours every day, I would change the oil once a week.  Only takes a few minutes so why not?

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 02:21:59 PM »
I've heard that too...

I just did the break-in oil change on my Tiger this weekend.  $10/qt!  I need to source synthetic 10w/40 and 20w/50 motorcycle sportbike oil online somewhere and buy it by the case, because Autozone and O'Reilly aren't getting $40 per oil change from me again.  Fortunately I've got 6000 miles before I have to worry about it again.

XR only takes between 2.0 and 2.25qt to fill, but I don't want to use synthetic on it.  I've got a partial case of 10w40 valvoline motorcycle 4 stroke oil left from a previous purchase (used for both the old Shadow and the XR) and that's getting used up in the XR.  And I have reservations about using superninja oil in a 21 year old bike.

Yeah, this isn't an oil reservoir temperature.  It's a cylinder head oil input temperature.  Maybe I should see if there's some sort of oil reservoir temp sensor I can try, and get more data.

Mobil One and Castrol Synthetic are not that expensive.

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brimic

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 02:29:03 PM »
Mobil One and Castrol Synthetic are not that expensive.



Mobil 1 is about $9/quart in my area- when you can find it.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 02:59:53 PM »
Mobil One and Castrol Synthetic are not that expensive.



Castrol PowerRS Racing 4T is.

Motorcycle oil is also formulated differently than automobile oil, due to wet clutch applications.  Which makes the available product pool smaller and more expensive. 

Even on Amazon, it's $40 for a 6-pack.

http://www.amazon.com/Castrol-06078-10W-40-4-Stroke-Motorcycle/dp/B008MISDH4/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1392148741&sr=1-1&keywords=castrol+power+rs+racing+4t+10w-40

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charby

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 03:57:44 PM »
Mobil 1 is about $9/quart in my area- when you can find it.

Walmart, $25 for the 5 qt bottle of Mobile One.
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charby

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 03:58:10 PM »
Castrol PowerRS Racing 4T is.

Motorcycle oil is also formulated differently than automobile oil, due to wet clutch applications.  Which makes the available product pool smaller and more expensive. 

Even on Amazon, it's $40 for a 6-pack.

http://www.amazon.com/Castrol-06078-10W-40-4-Stroke-Motorcycle/dp/B008MISDH4/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1392148741&sr=1-1&keywords=castrol+power+rs+racing+4t+10w-40



Forgot about the wet clutch.
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tokugawa

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2014, 04:20:14 PM »
 

 It sounds like the cooler did what you want- if you are not seeing condensation in the oil, why not just run it?    The thermostatic valve is a nice idea, but one more thing to go wrong...
 Like Bill Lear said," you never have to design it, manufacture it, source it, pay for it, install it, maintain it, or anything else, if you leave it out"   =D

It is gonna be a lot easier to regulate temp on a water cooled engine, and my guess is most of those recommendations are based on that.

viscosity will make a difference in oil temps as well- thinner oil runs cooler, as less energy is used in shearing the oil film.

 I conducted an inadvertent experiment once by adding a can of STP to my oil, in the SW in summer- locked that old 6 banger up tight! 

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2014, 04:40:00 PM »
Shell Rotella T is JASO MA approved for wet clutch use, and can be found for $10-15/gallon.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2014, 04:50:14 PM »
Shell Rotella T is JASO MA approved for wet clutch use, and can be found for $10-15/gallon.

Damn.  I'm now on my second synthetic oil load.

Is Rotella SH rated, or higher?  I can't find that.  I'm supposed to use API SH or higher rating.  Seems a lot of the conventional oils out there, from a casual inspection, are API SF and SG.  To get SH or SJ, you have to get into synthetics.
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bedlamite

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2014, 05:07:05 PM »
Damn.  I'm now on my second synthetic oil load.

Is Rotella SH rated, or higher?  I can't find that.  I'm supposed to use API SH or higher rating.  Seems a lot of the conventional oils out there, from a casual inspection, are API SF and SG.  To get SH or SJ, you have to get into synthetics.

The S ratings are for cars, not bikes, and do not apply to wet clutch use. The big deal is Friction Modifiers added to the oil after the SH rating. API oils newer than SJ have them in all 30 wt oils and some 40wt oils. They can FUBAR your wet clutch. Many 50 st oils don't have them, look for the API symbol on the back of the bottle, if it doesn't say "energy conserving" then you *might* be OK:



I only use oil that has been certified JASO MA for wet clutch use. JASO is the Japanese version of API, and the only one to test for wet clutch use for Motorcycle applications:

http://www.oilspecifications.org/jaso.php

For oil weight, you don't need to worry about the first number being exact. It's the viscosity when the oil is cold. after the oil has circulated for a minute, it no longer applies, the second number is the important one, that's the viscosity at running temp.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2014, 05:12:46 PM »
The S ratings are for cars, not bikes, and do not apply to wet clutch use. The big deal is Friction Modifiers added to the oil after the SH rating. API oils newer than SJ have them in all 30 wt oils and some 40wt oils. They can FUBAR your wet clutch. Many 50 st oils don't have them, look for the API symbol on the back of the bottle, if it doesn't say "energy conserving" then you *might* be OK:



I only use oil that has been certified JASO MA for wet clutch use. JASO is the Japanese version of API, and the only one to test for wet clutch use for Motorcycle applications:

http://www.oilspecifications.org/jaso.php

For oil weight, you don't need to worry about the first number being exact. It's the viscosity when the oil is cold. after the oil has circulated for a minute, it no longer applies, the second number is the important one, that's the viscosity at running temp.

My Triumph owner's manual explicitly says:

Quote
Fill the engine with a 10w/40 or 10w/50 semi or fully synthetic motorcycle engine oil that meets specification API SH (or higher) and JASO MA, such as Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10w-40 (fully synthetic).

I'm familiar with the "energy conserving" label and to avoid that.
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bedlamite

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2014, 05:29:28 PM »
The reason they state SH is that that was the last specification that didn't include friction modifiers. The "(or higher)" is a puzzler, because for a wet clutch, that can cause problems. You will not find any SH in auto stores, they are up to SN now and SH is considered "obsolete" for automotive use.  They have since improved the oils for auto use, but at the expense of motorcycles, they are such a small market segment, the API doesn't even consider them. They still make SH oil, but it is only distributed in small quantity through motorcycle manufacturers, hence the outrageous price.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/apiserviceclass.htm

Once again, The API doesn't even consider motorcycles in their testing and I wouldn't use anything higher than SH unless it also had the JASO MA spec on it. I use Rotella. Your bike, your call.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2014, 05:43:43 PM »
Stuff I went with is API SL and JASO MA-2, no energy conserving, specifically states wet clutch protection.

Not fully sure how JASO MA and MA-2 differ with each other, which does frustrate me a little bit.  MA-2 has less zinc/phosphorous, which are evidently antifriction additives, and are reduced in MA-2 oils to cause less fouling to catalytic converters.  My bike does have a cat (Tiger... cat... gigglesnort), but the manufacturer specifically left out reference to MA-2 oils.

So I may be changing the oil a bit sooner than the stated 6000 miles if it starts feeling odd when shifting or otherwise looks worn out.

I could not find an oil that conforms to the Triumph standards.  I had 4 to choose from between two auto parts stores and none conformed.


Basically, goes to show I need to plan my oil change a few weeks before-hand and pre-stock everything rather than assuming I can get it at Autozone.
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zahc

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2014, 06:00:49 PM »
Supposedly semi-truck oil for diesels is safe for motorcycle clutches and transmissions, and very cheap per gallon. Just something I was told.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2014, 07:32:28 PM »
Quote
I'm familiar with the "energy conserving" label and to avoid that.

 ???

Just to be contrary, or there's a scientific reason?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2014, 07:59:16 PM »
???

Just to be contrary, or there's a scientific reason?

It's bad for wet clutch applications.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2014, 08:08:38 PM »
Got it. 

Ok for a Ducati, not for my Harley.
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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2014, 08:35:18 PM »
I think you got some good advice in this thread. But here's my randomly arranged thoughts...

The other thing to consider is that you added pressure drop in the oil system by adding the cooler. If you add a thermostat on top of that, it'll be additional pressure drop. Its not just the oil temp to the bearings to consider, its also the oil pressure to the bearings. At lower rpm, the oil pump will struggle to deliver the right pressure/flow especially as you add more restriction.

The head is the hottest component on the engine, so it doesn't really reflect the oil temp to main & throw bearings, under piston squirt, or cam bearings. But you still don't want the hot head degrading the oil prematurely and wearing out valve seals.

Air cooled engines have to be designed to run at a wider range of temperatures than a water cooled engines. So either way, a properly designed engine should be good to go, but if you are in a hot environment, then it was probably a good idea.

The manual might have been written before the latest standards came out or could be tested.

My local motorcycle/atv/dirtbike store has a couple of the wet clutch formulated oils.
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brimic

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2014, 08:44:19 PM »
Got it. 

Ok for a Ducati, not for my Harley.
Harley clutch is in a seperate case, no worries about synthetic engine oil ;)
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zahc

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2014, 10:52:58 PM »
Harley clutch is in a seperate case, no worries about synthetic engine oil ;)

Really? I did not know that.
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bedlamite

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Re: Oil temps?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2014, 11:15:22 PM »
You might also consider a thermostat for that external oil cooler. Check with the place you got it, they might have something like this to fit:

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Engine-Oil-Thermostat-p/oil-thermostat.htm
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