Author Topic: Cruz wins New Hampshire  (Read 4053 times)

Perd Hapley

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Cruz wins New Hampshire
« on: February 10, 2016, 07:07:23 AM »
3rd place is the new winner.  =)
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makattak

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2016, 08:35:32 AM »
3rd place is the new winner.  =)

Curse you for beating me to the joke!

Honestly, I had hoped Cruz might take second, but it wasn't Kasich I thought he'd be battling with. That was surprising. (And here's hoping Chris Christie beats Kasich in South Carolina!)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

charby

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2016, 08:39:29 AM »
I thought it would go down as Trump, Kasich, Christie and Cruz/Rubio tied for 4th, then Bush, then the rest as 1-2%.

Yankee Republicans are different than Midwestern Republicans.

Don't worry, we will be voting against someone come November.
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roo_ster

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2016, 09:04:32 AM »
Don't worry, we will be voting against someone come November.

That is the sort of gloom I like to hear from a good midwesterner. 

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Ron

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2016, 09:05:36 AM »
Any nominee that wants to escalate our military involvement in the middle east will not get my vote.

Looks like I'll not be voting this time around.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MechAg94

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2016, 09:14:43 AM »
I figured Trump would win New Hampshire, but I thought Rubio would do better.  I did hear commentary that Kasich had his best debate to date in the last one.  

I guess we will see where South Caroline lands.  Then Super Tuesday is right around the corner.

So is New Hampshire all or nothing on the delegates or do the candidates get delegates based on votes?
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Ron

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2016, 09:16:19 AM »
http://fee.org/articles/two-flavors-of-tyranny/

Some interseting thoughts on Trump and Sanders

Quote
Sanders and Trump differ on particulars, though where exactly is not quite obvious. Yes, Trump is against gun control, and Sanders extols it. Sanders wants to pillage the rich, and Trump doesn’t want to be pillaged. Sanders makes a big deal about global warming, and Trump doesn’t seem to take it seriously.

But those are the tweaks and idiosyncrasies in an overarching system on which they both agree: the nation state as the central organizing unit of life itself. They have different priorities on who it should serve and where the state should expand most.

But they agree on the need to protect and enlarge state power. Neither accepts any principled limits on what the state may rightfully do to the individual. Even on big issues where one might think they disagree — healthcare, immigration, and control of lands by the federal government — their positions are largely indistinguishable.

Quote
The new form of socialists were supported by the young generation, “out of that contempt for profit-making fostered by socialist teaching.” These people “spurned independent positions which involved risk, and flocked in ever-increasing numbers into salaried positions which promised security.” They were demanding a place yielding them income and power to which their training entitled them but which seemed perpetually out of reach.

Though he was talking about 1930s Europe, it seems like a good description of Sanders supporters, who overwhelmingly come from the youngest voters. Betrayed by the educational system, stuck with a bleak job outlook, burdened with debt, trapped in a broken healthcare market, feeling like the system is rigged against them, they have turned to the politician who promises heaven on earth through the pillaging of the wealthy elites.

Then you have the fascist and national socialist right, with its own forms of scapegoating and its own class appeal. This approach says: your troubles are due to the outsiders, the immigrants, the media elite, the Muslims, the intellectuals and their political correctness.

The appeal, then as now, is a new form of identity politics based on nation and race. To them, the idea of equality is a mere cover for a power grab, a subversive trick to further the interests of the elites and nefarious “others.”
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Ben

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2016, 09:17:25 AM »
Any nominee that wants to escalate our military involvement in the middle east will not get my vote.

Looks like I'll not be voting this time around.

You should definitely vote, even if it's for someone not on the ballot. Seeing even minuscule numbers for a "John Doe" that espouses specific political ideas is better than just being one of the nameless non-voters. It at least records and categorizes your dissatisfaction. If you don't vote, you just get lumped in with the non-voter numbers, which could be taken by either side to say, "Republicans stayed home", or "Democrats stayed home". You can get lumped in with values completely opposed to yours.

Even just 100 write-ins for John Doe at least clarifies and quantifies your dissatisfaction.
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Ron

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2016, 09:19:07 AM »
Yea, write in seems like the best option
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

roo_ster

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2016, 09:30:41 AM »
http://fee.org/articles/two-flavors-of-tyranny/

Some interseting thoughts on Trump and Sanders


Trying to figure out how those are in any way new & insightful WRT American politics since about 1900 or so.  Oh, I agree (for the most part)--but that could apply to T Roosevelt, Wilson (not Hording or Calvin Coolidge, the best POTUS in the 20th Century), Hoover, F Roosevelt, and so on.
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roo_ster

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2016, 10:20:50 AM »
Trying to figure out how those are in any way new & insightful WRT American politics since about 1900 or so.  Oh, I agree (for the most part)--but that could apply to T Roosevelt, Wilson (not Hording or Calvin Coolidge, the best POTUS in the 20th Century), Hoover, F Roosevelt, and so on.

I know you are a supporter of Trump.

The truth is he is just as big a statist as Sanders.

They both see government as the solution, in their minds the right guy just hasn't instituted the right program(s).

Trump is a nationalist and seems to love the old America, that's great. He's still a big government type of guy. He's not going to dismantle our crony capitalist nascent fascist state. If anything under Trump it will get an injection of steroids and growth hormones. He will embrace the Obama doctrine of ruling by executive order. Everything I've learned about Trump points to every move the man makes is about getting HIM a better deal. I'm not confident my interests intersect enough with his enough to make it worth the risk of having him at the helm. His view of the utility of the state is not unlike Sanders, they have different goals but both crave to wield the coercive power of the state.

Sanders is just an old fashioned socialist. His popularity stems from the thorough brainwashing that the public education system has done on the population.   

Neither one of them are champions of individual liberty and both look at the laws protecting liberty as obstacles in their path.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

makattak

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2016, 10:25:23 AM »
So is New Hampshire all or nothing on the delegates or do the candidates get delegates based on votes?

As I understand it, all of the early primaries/caucuses must allocate proportionally. They aren't allowed to be all or nothing until later in the year.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MechAg94

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2016, 10:34:15 AM »
I know you are a supporter of Trump.

The truth is he is just as big a statist as Sanders.

They both see government as the solution, in their minds the right guy just hasn't instituted the right program(s).

Trump is a nationalist and seems to love the old America, that's great. He's still a big government type of guy. He's not going to dismantle our crony capitalist nascent fascist state. If anything under Trump it will get an injection of steroids and growth hormones. He will embrace the Obama doctrine of ruling by executive order. Everything I've learned about Trump points to every move the man makes is about getting HIM a better deal. I'm not confident my interests intersect enough with his enough to make it worth the risk of having him at the helm. His view of the utility of the state is not unlike Sanders, they have different goals but both crave to wield the coercive power of the state.

Sanders is just an old fashioned socialist. His popularity stems from the thorough brainwashing that the public education system has done on the population.   

Neither one of them are champions of individual liberty and both look at the laws protecting liberty as obstacles in their path.
My impression is Trump would seek to make the bureaucracy efficient before ever considering removing it.  Mostly that is judging by his response about Obamacare a while back.
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Ron

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2016, 10:37:37 AM »
My impression is Trump would seek to make the bureaucracy efficient before ever considering removing it.  Mostly that is judging by his response about Obamacare a while back.

The old "the system isn't a failure we just haven't had the right guys in charge" fallacy.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 11:19:35 AM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

roo_ster

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2016, 11:12:43 AM »
I know you are a supporter of Trump.

The truth is he is just as big a statist as Sanders.

They both see government as the solution, in their minds the right guy just hasn't instituted the right program(s).

Trump is a nationalist and seems to love the old America, that's great. He's still a big government type of guy. He's not going to dismantle our crony capitalist nascent fascist state. If anything under Trump it will get an injection of steroids and growth hormones. He will embrace the Obama doctrine of ruling by executive order. Everything I've learned about Trump points to every move the man makes is about getting HIM a better deal. I'm not confident my interests intersect enough with his enough to make it worth the risk of having him at the helm. His view of the utility of the state is not unlike Sanders, they have different goals but both crave to wield the coercive power of the state.

Sanders is just an old fashioned socialist. His popularity stems from the thorough brainwashing that the public education system has done on the population.   

Neither one of them are champions of individual liberty and both look at the laws protecting liberty as obstacles in their path.

Meh, you are seeing what you want to see.  Like the global warmists and 'deniers.'  In truth, there is not enough hard data to make a solid determination on Trump and what data there is has been tainted by one side or the other.

To call Trump as big a statist as Bernie Sanders, OTOH, disregards the hard data we do have.  Bernie has been red since the cradle and active in red politics since college.  Even his sanitized bio shows him as nothing more than a red activist and then a red policritter with zero time in the private sector.  There is none of this sort of mess in Trump's background, that's a fact. 

Trump seems to be a pragmatic(1) businessman in an environment where political connection and influence is as important as the purely economic/business bits of a deal/proposition.  So, he comes off as chummy with NYS and NYC policritters because that is the water in which he swims.  Were he to have been born in Texas or someplace less corrupt, he might have turned into a Ross Perot or T Boone Pickens-like figure.  Or maybe he would be as chummy with Texas policritters.  Trump does not seem a crony capitalist or corporatist, though.  He is a do-er, not a hanger-on.

Trump is surely no doctrinaire an-cap liberutopitairan.  Heck, I do not think Trump gives a fraction of a damn about ideology.  He does what he needs to on the way to his objectives.  If that means big, fat checks to NYC & DC politicos, so be it. 

In my eyes, Trump's administration would be no worse than any other likely candidate and better than most.  Dems are lost to Western Civ and decency.  The GOP is not much better.  They may talk liberty & small gov't, but their actions show us that is all lies.

OTOH, Trump has already done a great deal of good:
1. Moved the conversation on immigration in a nationalist direction.
2. Discredited much of the MSM, to include Fox.
3. Discredited the GOPe.
4. Turned íJeb! into chum.
5. Displayed open contempt for PC and the like.
6. In general, push a nationalistic message.
7. Slapped the Clintons silly.

I doubt Trump will deliver in full on any of his promises.  Delivering partly on them would be an improvement.

As for running with BHO's precedents on the use of executive power, that horse is out of the barn.  The only question is do more decent/patriotic folk unilaterally disarm and not use them to push a nationalist agenda or not?  Becasue hte Dems will use them when in office.  In truth, the COTUS and the rule of law is dead in this polity.  Might makes right these days. 

In the end, perhaps the best we can hope for in a Trump administration is a gutting of the GOPe and a massive disruption of the two-party system.  The GOP is looking awfully Whiggish in hte face and may need a permanent vacation.  Perhaps construct a new Jacksonian Party with socons and working class folks making up the bulk and willing to --literally--fight it out with the Left.



(1) Not necessarily a compliment.





 
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roo_ster

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Ron

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2016, 11:17:55 AM »
Well I do agree a Trump presidency would be "better" than a Sanders presidency.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MechAg94

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2016, 11:18:05 AM »
In truth, there is not enough hard data to make a solid determination on Trump and what data there is has been tainted by one side or the other.
I can agree with that statement.  That is why he is not my favorite in the Primary.  I can probably support him in the main election if he wins the primary.  He is better than Jeb Bush (or McCain or Romney).  
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makattak

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2016, 11:24:24 AM »
In the end, perhaps the best we can hope for in a Trump administration is a gutting of the GOPe and a massive disruption of the two-party system.  The GOP is looking awfully Whiggish in hte face and may need a permanent vacation.  Perhaps construct a new Jacksonian Party with socons and working class folks making up the bulk and willing to --literally--fight it out with the Left.

I've been thinking about that a lot lately.

I'm told over and over that "socons" ought to just shut up so "we" (Republicans) can win.

However, from what I've seen, we aren't getting social conservatism from our elected officials nor are we getting fiscal conservatism.

I do know there are a lot of "democrats" who aren't on board with the liberal social agenda, but hate Republicans because they aren't "for the little guy".

Maybe it's time for "socons" to stop supporting a losing agenda like "fiscal conservatism" and work with people who are truly concerned about the direction our country is headed.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Hutch

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2016, 11:44:15 AM »
Maybe it's time for "socons" to stop supporting a losing agenda like "fiscal conservatism" and work with people who are truly concerned about the direction our country is headed.
If we don't get our fiscal house in order, there will be an economic crisis and unrest in this country that will make the Bolshevik Revolution look like a sorority house pillow fight. That is the direction our country is headed in, and the destination is in sight.  It will make disagreements about gay marriage, gender identity and all the other SJW causes shrink to insignificance.  Stated differently, the socons are concerned about the monkeys flinging poo, when they should figure out how to keep the elephants from stampeding.  The socons will have to make common cause with libertarian or an-caps, or they will be subsumed in the coming Reckoning.

And I AM a socially right-leaning libertarian.
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MikeB

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2016, 11:51:13 AM »
I'm not sure how Trump is any worse than McCain or Romney when it comes to being a conservative? Probably better in some ways.

I'd prefer Cruz, now that Rand is done; but I think it would be foolish to not vote for Trump over Clinton or Sanders if that ends up being the choice.

Fitz

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2016, 11:56:09 AM »
Well I do agree a Trump presidency would be "better" than a Sanders presidency.

Getting kicked in the dick repeatedly IS better than getting shot in the dick repeatedly
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makattak

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2016, 12:07:16 PM »
If we don't get our fiscal house in order, there will be an economic crisis and unrest in this country that will make the Bolshevik Revolution look like a sorority house pillow fight. That is the direction our country is headed in, and the destination is in sight.  It will make disagreements about gay marriage, gender identity and all the other SJW causes shrink to insignificance.  Stated differently, the socons are concerned about the monkeys flinging poo, when they should figure out how to keep the elephants from stampeding.  The socons will have to make common cause with libertarian or an-caps, or they will be subsumed in the coming Reckoning.

And I AM a socially right-leaning libertarian.

I think you've got it backwards.

We're currently spending the money of my children and grandchildren because our politicians have no morals and are only concerned about the present.

Without correcting our moral failings, we will not correct the fiscal issues. Those are a symptom of the real problem. The real problem is the country has grown more and more short-sighted and selfish. ME ME ME!! Screw those unborn citizens. If they didn't want us to steal from them, they should have voted!
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

brimic

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2016, 12:15:54 PM »
I think you've got it backwards.

We're currently spending the money of my children and grandchildren because our politicians have no morals and are only concerned about the present.

Without correcting our moral failings, we will not correct the fiscal issues. Those are a symptom of the real problem. The real problem is the country has grown more and more short-sighted and selfish. ME ME ME!! Screw those unborn citizens. If they didn't want us to steal from them, they should have voted!

Pretty much right. Socially liberal and fiscally conservative are two mutually exclusive ideas. Regardless of how libertarians want to frame their argument, someone ultimately has to pay for others' preventable mistakes.
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Hutch

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2016, 12:26:01 PM »
I think you've got it backwards.

We're currently spending the money of my children and grandchildren because our politicians have no morals and are only concerned about the present.

Without correcting our moral failings, we will not correct the fiscal issues. Those are a symptom of the real problem. The real problem is the country has grown more and more short-sighted and selfish. ME ME ME!! Screw those unborn citizens. If they didn't want us to steal from them, they should have voted!
We have a chicken / predecessor disagreement.  I assert that it is possible for someone to want fiscal sanity, and be pro-... Fill in whatever you hate.  If you can't make common cause with this, call it libertarian person, then both the socon and the libertarian will wind up in the same squalid predicament, with neither economic freedom nor a morally upright government.  A more libertarian government may not halt the spread of all that icky pro-gay crap, but they also won't jail or fine the baker who refuses to serve a gay wedding cake.  They may not obstruct the building of a mosque in your community, but they won't jail you for putting a nativity scene in view of a public street.

Is having to promote your cultural norms without .gov enforcement worth accepting a smothering nanny-state that is both antithetical to your beliefs AND hellbent on monetary, fiscal, and economic suicide?
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Hutch

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Re: Cruz wins New Hampshire
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2016, 12:31:08 PM »
Pretty much right. Socially liberal and fiscally conservative are two mutually exclusive ideas. Regardless of how libertarians want to frame their argument, someone ultimately has to pay for others' preventable mistakes.
I can't believe we're rehashing the conservative vs libertarian divide.  Right wingers want to equate "minding your own business" with "crushing all moral rectitude".  It ain't so.
"My limited experience does not permit me to appreciate the unquestionable wisdom of your decision"

Seems like every day, I'm forced to add to the list of people who can just kiss my hairy ass.