Heroes of the Great Patrotic War

[Tuco]

Was there any of this stuff in recent wars, and I mean in the past 50 years?

Based on purported first hand accounts that are not verifiable, yes.

Could've been bavado, a trusted confession, or plain talk of the way it was. 
Regardless, I was told stories by an individual that was a verified combat officer who died a deeply troubled and tortured soul.

Heresay, I agree, but in the USA these things are just not talked about openly for many reasons.

[roo_ster]

/Emphatic cough

On the scale of things, Leninism/Stalanism was nest of angry wasps on crack.  Its adherents were crazy and dangerous, but did not spread real well since it failed to appeal to some basic human drives. Don't make it angry(er) and eventually it died out.

National Socialism was aerosolized Ebola.  Adherents are still crazy and dangerous, and smarter nut-cases DO know how to reach out with a sweet message that hides the bitter pill inside.  The infection was mostly stamped out, but vectors still roam free.

@Sindawe

You are so wrong it's not funny. Nazism doesn't spread well, because it is a racist ideology with limited appeal for non-Aryans. Communism, or it's milder forms, on the other hand, is to be found almost everywhere..

Gotta side with Lanius, here. 

Nazism was a national movement.  Marxism was international.  Nazism had such limited appeal beyond Germany, there were no other explicitly Nazi governments.  OTOH, there were scores of Marxist governments.

Contra all the Hollywood and leftist propaganda, Nazis were less of a threat than Communists.

[roo_ster]

OK, someone has to write it:

Why should any decent person give a good gawddamn about a Soviet Army monument in Bulgaria?

Bulgaria was part of the Axis in WW2 and fought against the Allies.  When the worm turned, it put up no resistance to the Red Army when it came to town.

Screw them and screw the Red Army, the mailed fist of Eurasian oppression for 70 years.

[Regolith]

@Sindawe

You are so wrong it's not funny. Nazism doesn't spread well, because it is a racist ideology with limited appeal for non-Aryans. Communism, or it's milder forms, on the other hand, is to be found almost everywhere..


Gotta side with Lanius, here. 

Nazism was a national movement.  Marxism was international.  Nazism had such limited appeal beyond Germany, there were no other explicitly Nazi governments.  OTOH, there were scores of Marxist governments.

Contra all the Hollywood and leftist propaganda, Nazis were less of a threat than Communists.

Yup. Death tolls bear that out as well.

If you count all combat deaths in WWII along with the genocides, the Nazis were responsible for around 50 million deaths. 

On the other hand, once you count all the deaths caused by the Soviets, Chinese, and the various other Asian Communist dictators, you're talking a death toll in the  100  to 200 million range, depending on whose figures you believe.

It still astounds me that the communists are not more reviled than the Nazis.

[230RN]

....

[Perd Hapley]

On the other hand, once you count all the deaths caused by the Soviets, Chinese, and the various other Asian Communist dictators, you're talking a death toll in the  100  to 200 million range, depending on whose figures you believe.

It could be worse. Look at the terrifying imperialism of American pop culture. 

[birdman]

Can we repaint the Iwo Jima memorial next?

You could try.  But I (among many) would disapprove heavily, and heaven help you if marines found out you did. 

[Sindawe]

[rant]

On the other hand, once you count all the deaths caused by the Soviets, Chinese, and the various other Asian Communist dictators, you're talking a death toll in the 100  to 200 million range, depending on whose figures you believe.

Who pionered the industrialization of mass murder and showed others the path?  Yea, Stalin enginered mass famines in his time. As did the Ottoman Turks.  Mao's hands are bloody primarily from the incompetence of his ideas, secondarily to his inate malice against those who oppose him.

Nazis were less of a threat than Communists

So why did Churchill and FDR ally with the Soviet Union and agree that Victory in Europe took priority?  Could it be the realization that the Nazi's darn near succeded in their plan to dominate Europe but for the mismangment & backstabing rife in the Third Reich, along with the the price in blood and souls paid by the Russian people?  Could it be knowledge that if left unmolested for five year so that this



would lead to this



and that in another 10 years these



would lead to this over London, Moscow and Washington?



Never forget, alot of those guys who built the V-2s came to work for the U.S. after the war. Those who did not helped put Sputnik up and toss primative droids to the moon before the U.S. got its act together.

I've no love for Collectivism what ever its stamp, but frankly in my view the Reds can be adapted to and to some degree lived with (else this plesant conversation would not be taking place).  The more rabid forms of their ideology tend to be confined to the youth of an age or have been "liberated" to sell trendy tee-shirts to the ignorant; while the elders of the tribe can't help but expose themselves when the bits hit the wire.  Keep the former distracted with protests, shun & ridicule the latter when the come to the surface.  Always watch both.

The Nazis?  Those people were insane and too smart for our own good.  Give them an micron of traction and they'll grab kilometers of Lebensraum.  Nazi idology appeals to those who feel down trodden by others and those who fear losing what they have.  Hatred against the Jews/Communists/Mexicans/Muslums/Socialists/<insert hated group here> is just a handy took to use to gain power and control.

The briar patch of German National Socialism had been cleared out, but its seed were able to scatter to four winds and take root.

My my, where have we seen this before I wonder...



[/rant]

Just my opinion of course, and I think we all know the truism about those.

[Perd Hapley]

Yeah, so their helmets are the same shape as the German Army's. Or the American Army's.

[MicroBalrog]

On the other hand, once you count all the deaths caused by the Soviets, Chinese, and the various other Asian Communist dictators, you're talking a death toll in the  100  to 200 million range, depending on whose figures you believe.

Going to have to be seriously careful with these numbers.

Why should any decent person give a good gawddamn about a Soviet Army monument in Bulgaria?

Well, if you were a Bulgarian you might feel different. I may be wrong, but I remember reading about a meaningful quantity of Bulgarians fighting on the side of the Soviets.

For many people this monument is not about Communism - which is dead - but about their ancestors' involvement in the war.

[RevDisk]

I did love my time in Sofia

[Lanius]

Yeah, so their helmets are the same shape as the German Army's. Or the American Army's.

Isn't that shape the best shape for helmets? Germans are perfectionists that way..

The only thing that really surprises me is that no one concieved of the AK-47 in 1910 or so..
Russians had the Fedorov automatic rifle back then though, but it never went into widescale production.

Funny that a gun that was almost an assault rifle appeared *before* SMG's came into widespread use..

[roo_ster]

[rant]

Who pionered the industrialization of mass murder and showed others the path?  Yea, Stalin enginered mass famines in his time. As did the Ottoman Turks.  Mao's hands are bloody primarily from the incompetence of his ideas, secondarily to his inate malice against those who oppose him.

So why did Churchill and FDR ally with the Soviet Union and agree that Victory in Europe took priority?  Could it be the realization that the Nazi's darn near succeded in their plan to dominate Europe but for the mismangment & backstabing rife in the Third Reich, along with the the price in blood and souls paid by the Russian people?  Could it be knowledge that if left unmolested for five year so that this



would lead to this



and that in another 10 years these



would lead to this over London, Moscow and Washington?



Never forget, alot of those guys who built the V-2s came to work for the U.S. after the war. Those who did not helped put Sputnik up and toss primative droids to the moon before the U.S. got its act together.

I've no love for Collectivism what ever its stamp, but frankly in my view the Reds can be adapted to and to some degree lived with (else this plesant conversation would not be taking place).  The more rabid forms of their ideology tend to be confined to the youth of an age or have been "liberated" to sell trendy tee-shirts to the ignorant; while the elders of the tribe can't help but expose themselves when the bits hit the wire.  Keep the former distracted with protests, shun & ridicule the latter when the come to the surface.  Always watch both.

The Nazis?  Those people were insane and too smart for our own good.  Give them an micron of traction and they'll grab kilometers of Lebensraum.  Nazi idology appeals to those who feel down trodden by others and those who fear losing what they have.  Hatred against the Jews/Communists/Mexicans/Muslums/Socialists/<insert hated group here> is just a handy took to use to gain power and control.

The briar patch of German National Socialism had been cleared out, but its seed were able to scatter to four winds and take root.

My my, where have we seen this before I wonder...



[/rant]

Just my opinion of course, and I think we all know the truism about those.

Sindawe:

Why did we prioritize Europe over the Pacific?  Probably because of all the Europeans.  We have stronger ties, Europe was far advanced relative to East Asia...there were several good reasons to prioritize Europe ahead of the Pacific.  Besides, we could keep the Japs occupied and even begin to roll them back with just the USMC and a decent Navy & USAAC presence.  No US Army ground forces needed outside of the need to salve MacArthur's pride.

Also, don't forget all the commie moles in the FDR administration who didn't give a rat's *expletive deleted*ss about the Pacific, but were terribly worried about their boy Stalin, after Hitler got frisky with the USSR.  Sadly, WW2 in Europe degenerated into merely "The War to Save Stalin and Russian Communism."

IIRC, the number of folks killed by Stalin & Lenin before WW2's hostilities exceeds (or is awfully close to) the number killed by Hitler before and during WW2.  Hitler was an amateur relative to the Communists.  Or, Nazism was a retailer of death, while the Communists were wholesalers.

As for being a threat to the USA, how many Nazi spies infiltrated our gov't up to the end of WW2?  Compare that to the number of communist spies. 

The Nazis were going up a rabbit hole, nuke-wise, and their delivery devices were terribly inaccurate.  They had lots of innovative ideas, but could not effectively execute on most of them.

Anyways, we finally come back to the limited appeal of Nazism.  In Germany, Nazism and Communism appealed to the same lot of folks, because of their fundamental similarities.  There are many primary sources showing how folks drifted from one to another.  In the end, Nazism managed to increase its appeal to Germans at the cost of limiting its appeal to almost everyone else.  It was inherently self-limiting, as there were a severely limited number of Germans to carry out Nazism's objectives.

Well, if you were a Bulgarian you might feel different. I may be wrong, but I remember reading about a meaningful quantity of Bulgarians fighting on the side of the Soviets.

For many people this monument is not about Communism - which is dead - but about their ancestors' involvement in the war.

Most of the Bulgarians who fought in WW2, fought as part of the Axis.  Then, they played heavies for the USSR during the Cold War.  Not exactly the stuff that ought to be venerated.

As for the Red Army, I'll cheer any vandalism of any monument to that disgusting tool of mass murder and oppression.

[Lanius]

"The War to Save Stalin and Russian Communism."

You *think* that Overlord would have a snowball's chance in hell of succedding had Germany beaten the USSR?

Keep dreaming. The only reason allies won the air war over Germany was that Germans kept most of their fighter force fighting the Russians. The only reason allies succeded in Normandy was that the bulk of the Wehrmacht was bogged down in the east.

Had USSR collapsed in 1941 or 42, it's possible Germany would instead have invaded Britain in 1943 or 1944. And with Britain gone, it'd have been easy for Germans to mop up any remaining allied resistance in northern Africa or the mid-east.

[kgbsquirrel]

The only thing that really surprises me is that no one concieved of the AK-47 in 1910 or so..
Russians had the Fedorov automatic rifle back then though, but it never went into widescale production.

Funny that a gun that was almost an assault rifle appeared *before* SMG's came into widespread use..

I blame that mostly to institutional inertia, the reluctance to adopt an intermediate rifle cartridge in any form by the big armies. Other than that, there were plenty of gas or recoil operated, magazine fed automatic rifles floating about either in intermediate calibers, or could have been readily scaled down to them. An example would be the Remington Model 8 Police chambered in .30 Remington (which remarkably falls right into the same power range as 7.62x39mm, and is a rimless bottle necked spitzer design.) Interestingly enough, Mikhail Kalashnikov, to the best of my understanding, admitted to borrowing the dust cover safety latch from the Model 8 for the AK-47.