Texas GOP party platform: You can pray the gay away!

[RevDisk]

I'm not a professional shrink, but from what I've seen, kid touchers are in their own special basket. I'm excluding "16 and over" or "looks more or less like an adult", and referring to the more predatory pedophiles. Most critters with a fixation on having sex with children (pick an age well and inarguably below puberty norms) are generally not interested in their adult counterparts, except for tactical purposes (cover, enabling, etc).

Counting them as heterosexual or homosexual is only useful for propaganda to prove PR points in completely unrelated fields.

[Firethorn]

Counting them as heterosexual or homosexual is only useful for propaganda to prove PR points in completely unrelated fields.

Bingo.  Targeting homosexuals on the premise that you'll also be targeting the worst pedophiles is about as accurate as targeting gun owners with the premise that you'll catch more murderers.  IE not worth jack.

[charby]

Bingo.  Targeting homosexuals on the premise that you'll also be targeting the worst pedophiles is about as accurate as targeting gun owners with the premise that you'll catch more murderers.  IE not worth jack.

but, but, but, my religion says otherwise. 

[Perd Hapley]

but, but, but, my religion says otherwise. 

Yeah, cause roo_ster's posts have been nothing but Bible verses.  Sometimes, you guys just make it too easy.

[charby]

Yeah, cause roo_ster's posts have been nothing but Bible verses.  Sometimes, you guys just make it too easy.

I didn't mention the Bible and I didn't mention which religion.

[Strings]

Lumping homosexuals in with pedophiles is a good way of "othering" gays

Seem to recall the Jews having all sorts of heinous crimes and behaviors ascribed to them over the years, too

[charby]

Lumping homosexuals in with pedophiles is a good way of "othering" gays

Seem to recall the Jews having all sorts of heinous crimes and behaviors ascribed to them over the years, too

Then we had the universal distrust of black males because they were all thought to be serial rapists.

[Perd Hapley]

 

[Ron]

But of course those who are religious and on the right are never painted with a broad brush. And conservative Christians and social cons are never ever treated as "the other" being dehumanized into some easily vilified stereotype 

[cordex]

But of course those who are religious and on the right are never painted with a broad brush. And conservative Christians and social cons are never ever treated as "the other" being dehumanized into some easily vilified stereotype 

Especially not Catholic priests.

[MillCreek]

Kind of on point in terms of the underage paraphilia, but I just reported a 20 year old man to our local Child Protective Services for impregnating a 14 year old girl.  This is a mandatory report for healthcare providers in this state.  We will see what CPS does.

[Ron]

The amount of time and good will our culture has wasted arguing on the subject of homosexuality is incredibly disproportionate in comparison to the small percentage of the population gay folks represent. The percentage of that small percentage that are even interested in this new category of so called "marriage" is even smaller yet. Last I checked, in euro countries who years ago institutionalized gay marriage, only single digit percentages of the total gay population exercise that option.

With so much energy and ill will devoted to the issue I've come to believe it is the dumbest battle of all in the so called culture wars.

When they decide to legislate that up is down and down is up I'm going to just shrug and say; whatever! This culture jumped the shark a ways back and I'm finishing up my days trying to insulate myself from the madness as much as possible.

Laissez-faire!

   

[Angel Eyes]

Lumping homosexuals in with pedophiles is a good way of "othering" gays

You might want to take a gander at the Spirit of Stonewall Declaration from 1994:
http://www.qrd.org/qrd/orgs/NAMBLA/spirit.of.stonewall

A few choice parts:

Stonewall was  the spontaneous  action  of
marginal people  oppressed by  the mainstream  - of teenaged drag
queens, pederasts, transsexuals, hustlers, and others despised by
respectable straights  and "discreet"  homosexuals.
...
We  focus on one of the most glaring departures
from those principles:  the attempt to exclude the North American
Man/Boy Love  Association (NAMBLA),  and possibly  other  groups,
from  the   Stonewall  25  March  and  from  their  place  within
gay/lesbian space and discourse.
...
Just as unions, the civil rights
and peace  movements were  pressured  to  cleanse  themselves  of
suspected "communists,"  the lesbian/gay movement is now expected
to rid  itself of  social misfits, the vulnerable pederasts first
of all.
...
NAMBLA's record  as a responsible gay organization is well known.
NAMBLA was  spawned by  the gay  community and  has been in every
major gay  and lesbian  march.

The suggestion that anti-gay bigots are attempting to lump gays and pedophiles into one category in order to smear them is false.  A number of prominent gay activists consider same-sex pedophiles and pederasts to be part of their community.  In recent years, the gay-rights movement has attempted to distance itself from NAMBLA and similar groups, but I suspect this is mainly a PR move.

Seem to recall the Jews having all sorts of heinous crimes and behaviors ascribed to them over the years, too

Right.  Because objecting to pedophilia makes me a Nazi . . .

[Strings]

Such a bloody delicate group we suddenly have here

>But of course those who are religious and on the right are never painted with a broad brush. And conservative Christians and social cons are never ever treated as "the other" being dehumanized into some easily vilified stereotype<

I suggested that... where and how, again?

Angel Eyes: you quote from NAMBLA, and want us to accept that? Wow...

And I was by no means restricting my comment about Jews to JUST what the Nazis did... nor was I in any way lumping anyone in with any of the governments through history that have acted against the Jewish people

Ye gawds... y'all need to grow a damn skin or something

[roo_ster]

Its possible to heterosexual and a pedophile also.

I mentioned them several times in the post you quoted.  Matter of fact, they make up the denominator in the ratio.  Matter of fact #2, I mentioned that in absolute numbers, male hetero pedophiles outnumber male homo pedophiles, but that the ratio of homo/hetero pedophiles is ~8/1 if we also factor in population sizes. 

I suspect you did not read what you quoted.

I just typed up a long post, and decided to delete

As others have just shown, your "homos molest kids" is a fallacy. Don't think I need to say anymore

If the Texas GOP insists they can "pray the gay away," it looks like some folk want to "hand wave the gay away" when convenient and faced with actual conviction data.

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=38058.msg769730#msg769730

Again, what folk do trumps what they say. 

And dead bodies are dead bodies. 

[Strings]

Cool... you have conviction data. Congratulations

First problem: societal view of sexual assault, including that of minors. There IS still a very healthy "blame the victim" and "sweep it under the rug" tendency within our society. Because of that, any data arrived at via conviction data is, at best, suspect.

2) Your data says the majority of offenders are men. Yet the majority of victims are girls (IIRC, the victimization rate for children is 1:3 for girls, 1:5 for boys). By that, heterosexual men are more dangerous to our kids than homosexual

3) Another societal problem (to argue that men are the overwhelming majority offenders): there are still a LOT of people who view an adult woman having relations with an underage male as a lesser offense (if they even consider it an offense) than if you switched the ages

As for the connections between groups like NAMBLA and gay rights activists: the argument could easily be made that pedophile activists see a widening of gay rights as making for a better "playing field" for their own concerns (that's a guess, granted).

You've focused hard on "gay = pedophile". I know a LOT of gay people: I've met exactly 1 that I wouldn't trust a male child in my care with, and that was more because he lacked ANY morals than because of pedophilic tendencies. But I know a LOT of heterosexual men I wouldn't trust anywhere near any of the girls in the family.

Your assertions are a dramatic oversimplification of a VERY complex set of problems

[MillCreek]

If you want to see where certain members here are getting their arguments on this subject, do read this: http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF10F01.pdf

[RevDisk]

Ah, yes. The FRC. The fact that they have Boykin as their VP says volumes about their credibility. Dude did know his excrement, but he was also a bit "off", even by special operations standards. When he wasn't in charge, he was apparently alright. He started going off his rocker during the Clinton years and hit apex during the Bush II years. It's probably still classified, but he was probably the most responsible for Abu Ghraib. There's a reason why it is standing law to never allow intel types to be able to issue orders to MPs, because intel types will always screw up, use classification for cover and let Private Snuffy take the fall when it inevitably falls apart.

I tend to only flap my gums about stuff that's already leaked. That dude pulled some stuff that hasn't really leaked yet, but "highly shady" is the common denominator. Special operations tends do some necessary but shady stuff. That's understandable. This guy isn't sticking to that realm. Very dangerous and competent individual. Some folks here would absolutely love what he did and what he's currently working on. I'm less enthusiastic about his end goals, as well as his tactics in getting there. One of the few positives of Obama getting elected was killing this guy's career. If another neocon was elected, he'd be head of the NSA or DNI.

[MechAg94]

I have no idea about this gays/NAMBLA connection.  First I heard of it.  However, I have always wondered just how much the major national gay activists have in common with most gay people.  I have heard some pretty extreme things from the activists types.

[RevDisk]

I have no idea about this gays/NAMBLA connection.  First I heard of it.  However, I have always wondered just how much the major national gay activists have in common with most gay people.  I have heard some pretty extreme things from the activists types.

For the most part, gays feel the same way about NAMBLA as lawful gun owners feel about criminals that possess or operate firearms in the commission of a crime.

Personally, I don't include pedophiles in with heterosexual or homosexual populations for the same reason why I don't include say, gang members in with lawful gun owners. The Brady Bunch and such loves to include such folks with us, and relies on that for their stats/PR. It's technically correct, but intentionally misses the point.

[Ron]

For the most part, gays feel the same way about NAMBLA as lawful gun owners feel about criminals that possess or operate firearms in the commission of a crime.

Personally, I don't include pedophiles in with heterosexual or homosexual populations for the same reason why I don't include say, gang members in with lawful gun owners. The Brady Bunch and such loves to include such folks with us, and relies on that for their stats/PR. It's technically correct, but intentionally misses the point.

The separation of pedophiles from homosexual populations is based on an even more tenuous argument than the connection of pedophilia and homosexuality.

Sexual boundaries aren't always that clear around the margins, homosexuality is on the margins.

Insisting on the separation isn't any wiser than insisting on the connection IMHO.   

[KD5NRH]

2) Your data says the majority of offenders are men. Yet the majority of victims are girls (IIRC, the victimization rate for children is 1:3 for girls, 1:5 for boys). By that, heterosexual men are more dangerous to our kids than homosexual

Need to filter that for age spread greater than, say, 5 years; otherwise you're still going to get a lot of 16 year old female "victims" who were quite active participants with their 19 year old boyfriends (upon reading the details of each sex offender registration in my zip code, that's about a third of the cases) skewing the numbers toward heterosexual molestation.

Of course, your own statement that "young boys are FAR less likely to report being touched by a man than young girls" also means that any stats will be even more unfairly skewed toward heterosexual molesters.

[KD5NRH]

I know several people* that have accepted JC as their savior and turned their lives around.   Could not those that wish to avoid or reform their lives use prayer to avoid those temptations?

If you've accepted Jimmy Carter as your savior, you might as well just go ahead and give in to all the temptations because it ain't going to get any worse.

[AJ Dual]

The amount of time and good will our culture has wasted arguing on the subject of homosexuality is incredibly disproportionate in comparison to the small percentage of the population gay folks represent. The percentage of that small percentage that are even interested in this new category of so called "marriage" is even smaller yet. Last I checked, in euro countries who years ago institutionalized gay marriage, only single digit percentages of the total gay population exercise that option.

With so much energy and ill will devoted to the issue I've come to believe it is the dumbest battle of all in the so called culture wars.

When they decide to legislate that up is down and down is up I'm going to just shrug and say; whatever! This culture jumped the shark a ways back and I'm finishing up my days trying to insulate myself from the madness as much as possible.

Laissez-faire!

   

I actually agree with this. Capitulating to any or all lifestyle demands of a group that does not materially impact the freedom of others is probably the best strategy.

You take it away as a wedge issue and a bludgeon to be fought over from both sides, and you actually get less of said lifestyle in your face, in the media etc. If the religious right and social conservatives simply ignored the issue, it would not have nearly the prominence it does now.

My own personal feelings or politics aside, they completely screwed the pooch on this one, and should have all gone with an "Ignore it, they'll get theirs in hell..." strategy from the start.

[MillCreek]

If you've accepted Jimmy Carter as your savior, you might as well just go ahead and give in to all the temptations because it ain't going to get any worse.

But on the upside, you build houses for the poor and monitor elections!