Satanists plan to apply the Hobby Lobby SCOTUS decision

[MillCreek]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/satanists-hobby-lobby-decision-play-devils-advocate/story?id=24772548

It will be very interesting to see just how narrowly drawn or applied the Hobby Lobby decision will turn out to be.

[RoadKingLarry]

If I was the Hobby Lobby people, as soon as .gov forced me to do something against my beliefs in order to stay in business I would close the doors. Big going out of business sale. Game over, do not pass go.

[RevDisk]

(snip) W. James MacNaughton, The Satanic Temple's attorney (snip)

Does that make him the Devil's advocate?


And the article did make me laugh.

[SADShooter]

Does that make him the Devil's advocate?


And the article did make me laugh.

Nice. Satan's Solicitor also has a certain ring to it...

[Balog]

Satanists have an objection to informed consent? I guess when you claim to serve the Father of Lies that is an internally consistent position...

[RevDisk]

Satanists have an objection to informed consent? I guess when you claim to serve the Father of Lies that is an internally consistent position...

The objection is strictly to the "mandatory" aspect. They'd want folks have the ability to opt out of being forced to watching/reading/listening to material. Allegedly, some states or areas have heavily politicized material.

I guess the analogy would be if gun grabbers made firearm training or information mandatory, and then was in charge of writing said material.

[Balog]

The objection is strictly to the "mandatory" aspect. They'd want folks have the ability to opt out of being forced to watching/reading/listening to material. Allegedly, some states or areas have heavily politicized material.

I guess the analogy would be if gun grabbers made firearm training or information mandatory, and then was in charge of writing said material.

I think a better analogy would be truth in advertising or product labeling laws.

That being said, they're obviously just trolling. Which makes sense for a fake joke "religion."

[MillCreek]

That being said, they're obviously just trolling. Which makes sense for a fake joke "religion."

I think it is pretty smart: the courts are not thrilled to be in the position of deciding what religion is 'legitimate' and which is not.  If they meet the IRS guidelines of a religious organization, for example, it would be hard to argue that they are not entitled to the same protections and rights as are the Lutherans, the Seventh Day Adventists or the Scientologists.

[MechAg94]

I guess I am missing how this ties with the Hobby Lobby decision.  Are the Satanists being forced to pay for the literature through some health care they provide?  Is there some extra part of that SC decision that goes further?  or is this just an empty story to grab headlines? 

[makattak]

I'm curious as to how the Hobby Lobby decision has any bearing on this case whatsoever. Hobby Lobby (the decision) merely stated that individuals who organize as a closely held corporation do not give up their religious freedom rights under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

Are the members of the Satanic "chuch" closely held corporations?

(Edit: I see MechAg beat my question by 11 seconds.)

[Balog]

I think it is pretty smart: the courts are not thrilled to be in the position of deciding what religion is 'legitimate' and which is not.  If they meet the IRS guidelines of a religious organization, for example, it would be hard to argue that they are not entitled to the same protections and rights as are the Lutherans, the Seventh Day Adventists or the Scientologists.

Are any other groups seeking to change informed consent laws?

I guess I am missing how this ties with the Hobby Lobby decision.  Are the Satanists being forced to pay for the literature through some health care they provide?  Is there some extra part of that SC decision that goes further?  or is this just an empty story to grab headlines? 

Ayup.

[MillCreek]

Are any other groups seeking to change informed consent laws?

Possibly, but those groups may not have standing under the RFRA, which is the primary point of the Satanists perhaps bringing some future action.  I suspect this is just trolling, but if you are going to hang this sort of trolling on a hook, the RFRA would be a good choice.

[Balog]

Possibly, but those groups may not have standing under the RFRA, which is the primary point of the Satanists perhaps bringing some future action.  I suspect this is just trolling, but if you are going to hang this sort of trolling on a hook, the RFRA would be a good choice.

RFRA doesn't give you carte blanche permission to force any laws you don't like to be changed for everyone. HL sued so they would not personally have to pay for something that violates their religious principles. These morans are suing to change a law that has no direct effect on their company because they think it makes them look clever.

[Doggy Daddy]

These morans are suing to change a law that has no direct effect on their company because they think it makes them look clever.

One could make a good argument that that is the very same reason they chose to follow the "religion" they profess to follow; to show how clever they are.  Don't expect a serpent to act like anything except a serpent.

As an aside, I can't remember ever seeing quite so many comments attempting to argue by appealing to authority.

[grampster]

An imaginative attorney could postulate that Satanism is not a religion.  In fact Satanism would be the anti religion and thus have no standing in any religious argument.

[Perd Hapley]

Well, I can't say I'm displeased to have abortion-on-demand associated with Satanism. I hope this gets a lot of headlines. And, meh, maybe they'll get some laws changed, so that the info is offered, instead of mandated. The real issue is the hundreds of thousands being murdered each year, and we refuse to stop it.

There's an easy solution. Remove the religious issue by outlawing all discretionary abortions, for everybody. (Despite a much earlier thread, I don't actually want atheists (or Satanists) barred from having tots.)

[erictank]

An imaginative attorney could postulate that Satanism is not a religion.  In fact Satanism would be the anti religion and thus have no standing in any religious argument.

A corollary to that might be that those who do not observe a religion are not, in fact, free to do so.

Pretty sure that's not what Amendment 1 means, though.

[RevDisk]

An imaginative attorney could postulate that Satanism is not a religion.  In fact Satanism would be the anti religion and thus have no standing in any religious argument.

http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Churches-&-Religious-Organizations/Churches--Defined
http://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/irm_04-076-006.html

Courts (correctly) get hinky about defining what is or is not a religion. Any specific individual is free to believe any or all religions or churches is not a religion, obviously. But in a legal sense, if it's a church for tax reasons, it's a church. Otherwise, it's entirely subjective but not relevant.

A corollary to that might be that those who do not observe a religion are not, in fact, free to do so.

Pretty sure that's not what Amendment 1 means, though.

Wut?

[MechAg94]

Regardless, Hobby Lobby did not want to be required to pay for something that they felt was against their religious views.  The Satanists are trying to bypass informed consent requirements which is a bit different.  They are going to have to show why?  Unless there is something explicitly religious in the informed consent material, I doubt they will get far. 

[onions!]

I'm pretty sure there's a David Drake book or story(one of the Slammers maybe?) where all the religions but Satanism are gone.They end up being just normal folk.I wish I could remember the why,I think it was rather mundane.

Sorry,nothing useful to ad.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Regardless, Hobby Lobby did not want to be required to pay for something that they felt was against their religious views.  The Satanists are trying to bypass informed consent requirements which is a bit different.  They are going to have to show why?  Unless there is something explicitly religious in the informed consent material, I doubt they will get far. 

Depends on the material and how it's presented. Dry medical facts about the various risks if the procedures? or scare tactics and pushing alternatives?

If it's the first, well, that's par for the course with all medical procedures, and fine. If it's the second, I will jump on board and say religious exception could be legit. Scaring and pushing at woman to make different choices based on a moral argument doesn't fly and can be seen as religion based requirements.

[RevDisk]

I'm pretty sure there's a David Drake book or story(one of the Slammers maybe?) where all the religions but Satanism are gone.They end up being just normal folk.I wish I could remember the why,I think it was rather mundane.

Sorry,nothing useful to ad.

Close. Isolated Irish slowboat colony. Catholic, split into two factions, one side was denounced and/or excommunicated by the equivalent of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the other side just rolled with it.

And yea, they basically ended up being Episcopalian version of Satanists.

[Balog]

Regardless, Hobby Lobby did not want to be required to pay for something that they felt was against their religious views.  The Satanists are trying to bypass informed consent requirements which is a bit different.  They are going to have to show why?  Unless there is something explicitly religious in the informed consent material, I doubt they will get far. 

I don't even see how they have standing, it's not like they're getting a surcharge for the informed consent material.

[MechAg94]

Close. Isolated Irish slowboat colony. Catholic, split into two factions, one side was denounced and/or excommunicated by the equivalent of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the other side just rolled with it.

And yea, they basically ended up being Episcopalian version of Satanists.

It was from the March UpCountry series by David Weber and John Ringo.  One of the soldiers was from a planet of Satanists.  I remember it being a planet of Catholics where the church was the Govt and predictably became oppressive and everyone became anti-God after it was overthrown.  If I remember right, the were basically Christians with all the pronouns reversed. 

[onions!]

It was from the March UpCountry series by David Weber and John Ringo.  One of the soldiers was from a planet of Satanists.  I remember it being a planet of Catholics where the church was the Govt and predictably became oppressive and everyone became anti-God after it was overthrown.  If I remember right, the were basically Christians with all the pronouns reversed. 

O.K.,at least I got the Baen part right.It's been a decade and my noodles' been a little overcooked.
Thanks.