Author Topic: another computer thread. New hardware help  (Read 7779 times)

CNYCacher

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2007, 05:23:58 PM »
Ahh, the fanboy.
I knew somebody would bring up the WINE emulator.  Been there, done that.
Nothing like an extra layer of code between the app and the hardware to keep things zipping along, really.

Wine
Is
Not an
Emulator

The fact that you think WINE is an emulator makes your entire opinion suspect.

Wine is an API, not an emulator.  It allows programs compiled for windows to use windows function calls on linux natively.  As a result, many apps made for windows run faster on linux with wine.

That is all.

Me being a "fanboy" doesn't negate the validity of my opinions or my expertise in this matter, Mr. ad hominem
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Phyphor

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2007, 05:29:31 PM »
Regarding Wine: I agree that it mostly sucks.  VirtualBox running a real copy of WinXP does NOT suck - software compatibility with Windows apps is naturally very high - except that 3D graphics support isn't working yet, so this is a "business software solution" versus gaming.  (Note that as the virtual machine managers like Virtualbox and others get better at using the hardware virtualization extensions in the Core 2 Duo, we can expect gaming/3D/graphics performance to improve.)

Gamers are just going to have to dual-boot or avoid Linux altogether, for the moment.  Wine *might* get good enough later.  (It can run World of Whorecraft right now Smiley.)

---

As to Microsoft.  The two most evil things they've done are the old DR-DOS ripoff and the license violation against Sun's Java.  Billy Gates and company paid about $200mil for *each* of those mis-adventures.

DR-DOS: in the early 1990s we were running MS-DOS 5/6 family as the core OS and then loading Windows 3.x on top of that.  By the time we hit DOS6 and Win3.1 it was actually pretty respectable...but it was still very much a single-application-at-a-time thing...no multi-tasking like we're used to now.

MS-DOS was a ripoff of something called "CP/M", which in turn was descended from DEC minicomputers.  CP/M was the product of Digital Research.  DR came out with something called "MP/M where the first "M" meant multi-user - and anything multi-user (like Unix) was inherently multi-tasking.  This was all the way back around 1980, to give you an idea how far ahead of Microsoft they were.  DR then came out with a series of "sorta MS-DOS compatible" operating systems, some of which included the multi-tasking and even multi-user aspects of the old MP/M.

And then in the early '90s DR came out with DR-DOS.  It flat-out kicked butt.  Close to 100% MS-DOS compatible, single-user but multi-tasking.  See, the old 386 chip had this weird mode where it could immitate 8 ordinary 8086-class CPUs side-by-side.  For all I know the guts to do this are still in the Pentiums/Celerons/whatever but we don't use it.  But at the time, it was a cheap and fast path to real multi-tasking.  MS-DOS couldn't activate it, DR-DOS could.

Remember, Microsoft was making "double profits": they'd sell you MS-DOS as one deal and then Windows as another.  The two didn't merge until Win95 (and then barely).

Yea, I always thought that was hilarious how the OS ID'ed itself as Windows 4.0, and yet it was still pretty much a 32-bit wrapper (w/some 16 bit code for backwards compatibility) over a 16 bit command line OS.



Quote
Well when you ran DR-DOS on the bottom and Win3.x on top, whoa, it started to kick butt.  It could do some things that Win95 choked on some years later.  Gates&Co were pissed.

So they sabotaged Win3.x.  Literally.  They added code that detected the presence of DR-DOS and self-destructed when it was found.

Yea, many little things like this have been found throughout Microsoft's products.



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Now.  Did MS ever *promise* DR-DOS compatibility?  Of course not.  BUT, the people that bought Windows could legitimately expect to buy code that was NOT booby-trapped in order to maintain Billy's lavish lifestyle.

Digital Research bellied up and died - and sold the rights to DR-DOS to another company, which didn't have the legal/financial muscle to go up against MS, so they sold it to Novell who did and knew exactly what they were buying: the right to sue the crap out of Gates.  And they did, winning $200mil.

But by that time, the dominance of MS-Windows was supreme - Win98 for example was already out.  MS gained much more from this black hack than they lost in court.

---

The Sun Java saga was similar.  Java is a programming language designed by Sun.  Anybody can make a Java-compliant interpreter for free, so long as you follow Sun's license - which states flat-out that you can't add your own features out past what Java is designed to do.  That way the exact same Java code will run on any system with a Java interpreter.

As one example: this "interoperability" is why youtube works just fine on my Linux box, or a Mac, PC, BSD, whatever system, delivering exactly the same content.  As long as I can get Adobe's Flash player and Sun's Java to work on a given device, including the iPhone for example, I can use youtube.

For another example, there's a money management package out there called "Moneydance".  It's pretty good, esp. for the low price.  You download it for Mac, PC or Linux - and it's not different versions for each, it's the SAME DOWNLOAD running under Java.  It's one of the most advanced Java apps going.

So what did MS do, faced with this "threat" of people being able to write apps that would work on anything and screwing up their Windows monopoly?

They licensed Java from Sun, and then wrote a set of really REALLY good development tools to write Java apps under Windows.  So far so good - software development tools is where MS started in 1976 and it's still what they're best at.  Problem was, their Java toolkit would create Java code that only ran on MS-Java in Windows - not, for example, my Linux box or a Mac or anything else.

This is why we sometimes call Microsoft "The Borg".  They tend to assimilate new tech, make it their own, make it so it only works in their world, locking you into Windows.

This was all very deliberate in the case of Sun, and mentioned in numerous internal memos.  Which came to light when Sun sued and won the other $200mil judgment - because all this deliberately violated Sun's license.

And yet again, it was $200mil well spent - slowing down Java by years furthered the MS monopoly.

---

Beyond all that, and yeah there's MANY more examples of fraud by Gates&Co...

Microsoft has never had the guts to change their platform enough so that old apps wouldn't work on the new OS.  You can take 1982-era DOS programs and they'll probably work under Vista.

Not so much anymore, actually.  A LOT of apps just won't work on Vista... many of them developed for Win2k/XP.

Hell, Wordperfect for DOS won't even work under XP.


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And that's a bad thing.  Microsoft started with an operating system that was really a bad joke from a security and usability point of view, a single-user, single-tasking toy, and scaled it up to where it's now a looming monstrosity - but with "feet of clay" because it started out as a bad joke and the code needed to support that old gag is still in there if you dig deep enough.


When you compare this with Linux, it's descended from large-scale, multi-user, multi-tasking systems dating all the way back to 1968(!).  Literally decades of deep thought regarding security are in it's genes.  A graphical user interface (GUI) has been spliced in but if the GUI breaks, Linux reverts back to the old command-line mode and you can still back up your data, load new software, make repairs, get it back up properly.  Many of us go a step further: we have at least two complete graphical user interfaces loaded (one of the two major ones like Gnome and KDE plus at least one minor one like Enlightenment, XFCE or the like) and on startup, when we log in we can hit the "sessions" button and switch from one GUI to another, either temporarily or permanently.  I had a test copy of Gnome puke on me once, brought my lappie up under XFCE, started Firefox to google a solution, applied a fix, rebooted back into Gnome and all was well in about 10 minutes flat.

Yea, but to be realistic, most folks aren't going to want to deal with that sort of thing.  If windows craps out and the 'Repair' option doesn't work, then yea, they're screwed.  But the repair option there is a turnkey type of thing.  Under most *nix distros...not so much.
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So not only is hardcore security built in as a core concept left over from university data centers of the 1980s, things are "modular" and there are competing subsections of everything available.  For example, I didn't like how the Network Manager component worked so I pulled it and spliced in something called "Wicd" which handles WiFi connections much better.  *Everything* is modular like that, right down to the kernel.

It's like a Zombie movie.  Windows would make a damn poor Zombie - nail any part of it's integrated whole and it blows the hell up.  Linux would make a terrifying Zombie - you can shotgun whole chunks out, guts flying everywhere and what's left will shrug it off and keep stumbling forward.

Under the NT kernal, that's not quite true anymore.  However, the kernal *IS* rather vulnerable, before Vista.  A bad video driver could absolutely kill a WinXP box deader'n *expletive deleted*it.

Quote
Let's go back to my original point about MS not having the guts to start over.  Apple did.  The original MacOS was pretty good - for 1986.  But by around 1995 it was way long in the tooth and starting to fall apart over the increased memory demands of modern apps and multi-tasking needs of users.  By about version 8.5 it was an utter joke - it was becoming harder to support Macs in a corporate environment than Windows.  Version 9 was a last-ditch attempt at cleanup that failed.

So they did something remarkable.  Steve Jobs had gone off to do Next and the Next-step OS which was based on pure Unix.  Apple bought Next after apologizing to Jobs, and let him bring the NextOS back into Apple - calling it "OSX".  In some ways it's closer to it's Unix roots than Linux, and the two are definitely cousins.  OSX isn't as modular as Linux but it's good, solid, slick code that is unable to run most older OS9-and-below code.  (OS10.5 is now certified as "really honest to God Unix".)  Apple stopped trying to patch up a broken house and did a demolish-and-start-over approach.  Microsoft has never had the guts to take that step!

Linux had good genes to start with and never needed to, but then again it's a much more "evolutionary" process with different modules competing with each other in a "survival of the fittest" mode Smiley.

Yea, but the issues here aren't so much 'Linux is more secure' it's 'Under Windows, I insert CD, the installer launches, I hit 'next' until it's done, and then run my app.'  Under Linux it's not always that easy, and if something breaks, it can be counterintuitive for the average user to figure out.

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GeoJAP

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2007, 05:50:45 PM »
Since we are in full on geek-mode here, I'll ask a question that always has bothered me about Linux.  Jim March mentioned the Linux kernel being modular, which I agree it is, at installation time before it compiles.  At least in my experience.  About 2-3 years ago, I had several machines loaded with FreeBSD, OpenBSD and Fedora.  This was my first administration experience with BSD/UNIX even though I'd worked on Unix boxes for years.  I loved how I could recompile the kernel in BSD.  When I got to Linux, I found out that I could not recompile the kernel to add/remove various packages.   I asked my buddy (resident Linux-freak) who had some Frankenstein Slackware version running, and he said that Linux was limited in the ability to recompile the kernel.  This is probably what ultimately turned me off to Linux.  Is this true that all versions of Linux are unable to compile the kernel after installation?

JimMarch

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2007, 05:59:11 PM »
Quote
A LOT of apps just won't work on Vista... many of them developed for Win2k/XP.

Hell, Wordperfect for DOS won't even work under XP.

Yeah, but it's *accidental*.

True story: I had a client who just had to have Vista, I helped him set up his box, and then it turned out he had an old CD collection specialty database written for, I kid you not, Windows 2.x family.

Yeah, you read that right.

And it freakin' *worked* in Vista.  Looked like a turd and windows management was beyond funky, but it worked.  I was both amazed and appalled.

Quote
Yea, but the issues here aren't so much 'Linux is more secure' it's 'Under Windows, I insert CD, the installer launches, I hit 'next' until it's done, and then run my app.'  Under Linux it's not always that easy, and if something breaks, it can be counterintuitive for the average user to figure out.

In any Debian-family Linux variant (including Ubuntu), double-clicking on a .DEB file to install something is 100% just as easy as in Windows.  Actually cleaner sometimes: one of the things the .DEB installer specifies is "what other software is needed for this to run?" - and then it'll go fetch them and install them too once it lists them for you and lets you hit "OK".  This step is eliminated if all prerequisites are met.  It's called "automatic dependency management".  The Red Hat family "RPM" system is similar and 95% as good as the .DEB system.

Where the better Linux distros blow Windows away is in searching for freeware (open source stuff).  You can always look in the Windows section of Sourceforge, or take your chances on Tucows, C/NET or the like.  But in the better Linux variants like Ubuntu, we have our own databases of "known freeware" built into the operating system, pointing to online repositories maintained by the distributions.  I can go to the "add/remove programs" feature in Ubuntu and not just see what's installed, but also what's available - all 20,000+ pre-packaged pieces of freeware, all known to be malware free, with user ratings, descriptions, etc.  I check which ones I want, sorted by category, hit "apply" and watch 'em stream in. 

Usually no reboot needed afterwards, either Smiley.

You're saying Windows beats THAT!?

JimMarch

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2007, 06:05:15 PM »
GeoJAP:

http://www.howtoforge.com/kernel_compilation_ubuntu

That's for Ubuntu, probably the single biggest distro right now.  Being based on Debian I think it's more flexible than Fedora (based on Red Hat Corporate Edition).


GeoJAP

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2007, 06:05:39 PM »
You're saying Windows beats THAT!?

The only reason you need Windows for home use is if you are a gamer or Microsoft technologies developer. 

Edit: You may have issues if you are not tech-savvy and run into some hardware driver issues.  Other than that, my above statement stands.

GeoJAP

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2007, 06:07:19 PM »
Well, we'll see.  In February, when I build a new WinXP system with a Penryn dual core, I'll load Ubuntu on the PC I'm currently using (AMD FX-57/Nvidia 7800 GTX) and see how it does.  I assume they have drivers out for my monitors/USB keyboards/USB mice now.  It was tough sledding a few years ago with the drivers for a few pieces of hardware. 

Phyphor

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2007, 07:07:30 PM »
Quote
A LOT of apps just won't work on Vista... many of them developed for Win2k/XP.

Hell, Wordperfect for DOS won't even work under XP.

Yeah, but it's *accidental*.

True story: I had a client who just had to have Vista, I helped him set up his box, and then it turned out he had an old CD collection specialty database written for, I kid you not, Windows 2.x family.

Yeah, you read that right.

And it freakin' *worked* in Vista.  Looked like a turd and windows management was beyond funky, but it worked.  I was both amazed and appalled.

Heh, I still use MSVC++ 2 under Win2k.... the 16 bit one (for hammering out quick and dirty programs that really don't need the bloat of a windowing system.  I just let the VM manager run 'em in a window and display the output,)

(I use .NET for real 'doze apps, but sometimes a quick and dirty DOS program just makes sense, )

The 16 bit core isn't quite as...... *centralized* in more modern OSes, it's pretty much virtualized.  Not so much in Win95-ME.... IF you ran a process viewer on those OSes, you'd see a 16 bit kernal running alongside the 32 bit one (which explained the sheer instability of those OSes,)

Quote
Quote
Yea, but the issues here aren't so much 'Linux is more secure' it's 'Under Windows, I insert CD, the installer launches, I hit 'next' until it's done, and then run my app.'  Under Linux it's not always that easy, and if something breaks, it can be counterintuitive for the average user to figure out.

In any Debian-family Linux variant (including Ubuntu), double-clicking on a .DEB file to install something is 100% just as easy as in Windows.  Actually cleaner sometimes: one of the things the .DEB installer specifies is "what other software is needed for this to run?" - and then it'll go fetch them and install them too once it lists them for you and lets you hit "OK".  This step is eliminated if all prerequisites are met.  It's called "automatic dependency management".  The Red Hat family "RPM" system is similar and 95% as good as the .DEB system.

Oh, I know... but there's the first hitch.  Joe blow's gonna go "RPM?  Debian? Huh?"



Quote
Where the better Linux distros blow Windows away is in searching for freeware (open source stuff).  You can always look in the Windows section of Sourceforge, or take your chances on Tucows, C/NET or the like.  But in the better Linux variants like Ubuntu, we have our own databases of "known freeware" built into the operating system, pointing to online repositories maintained by the distributions.  I can go to the "add/remove programs" feature in Ubuntu and not just see what's installed, but also what's available - all 20,000+ pre-packaged pieces of freeware, all known to be malware free, with user ratings, descriptions, etc.  I check which ones I want, sorted by category, hit "apply" and watch 'em stream in. 

Well, yea.  The linux community tends to support itself so much better than the 'Doze one does. 
Quote
Usually no reboot needed afterwards, either Smiley.

You're saying Windows beats THAT!?

Joe blow goes to Walmart.  Joe blow buys a game or an app he wants/needs.  Joe blow tosses it in CD ROM drive, it installs, and runs.

See, I agree that Linux is superior in many ways, but overall, people *know* Windows.  Windows *USED* to be pretty much "buy it and just go" - despite the warts.  That did change with what, 6 versions of Vista? (something like that, )  I think that was a mistake myself, but what the hell,  I ain't running MS.

Until you can either get games and other popular software titles to install *seamlessly* with Linux, it's not gonna really be feasible for the average user. 

And, as I said, if an app craps out under Windows, there's usually a "repair" option under the add/remove programs section.  There isn't always (yet) such a thing under Linux.

Don't get me wrong, I'd seriously *LOVE* to see serious Linux support, especially with more games (hell, it'd be fairly easy, if done properly,) but I just don't see it happening right now.  Maybe in a couple of years.  Ubuntu is a *GREAT* leap forward....but they're not done yet.
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Gewehr98

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2007, 08:34:51 PM »
Ooh, ooh!

Somebody used the "Ad Hominem" bit again! Can I introduce them to Mike Irwin's Ad Hominem Club thread? Please?

(Never mind the fact I didn't introduce the fanboy term to this thread, hint, hint...)

Unless things have improved in leaps and bounds, even the WINE FAQ spells out that there are performance drawbacks to the extra layer of API code, and that performance is not a WINE priority.   rolleyes

Now, if you want to question my credibility - for the record, when I started playing with WINE back in 1998, it was called WINdows Emulator on the distribution. Go look it up, I'll wait here.  I discovered the code from the COMP.EMULATORS.MS-WINDOWS.WINE newsgroup, and proceeded from there to get my own distribution of WINdows Emulator back then, running it under Mandrake Linux on a dual P-II workstation. Go figure, you suppose that somebody did a bit of revisionist historian wordplay with the acronym to make it more appealing?  WINdows Emulator, WINdows Emulator, WINdows Emulator, out there in black and white for all to see, as early as 1994.  Jeebus. I suppose we brought Pearl Harbor on ourselves, too.

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BryanP

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2007, 01:37:23 AM »
*sigh*

Guys, guys, guys.  Speaking as someone who runs and supports Linux (on my desk at work, with XP in a VM for all the stuff I need to do that does indeed work better - or only - under Windows), various flavors of Windows from one legacy NT4 box up to Server 2003 all over the place, and Novell (still the best file print services and directory services network OS ever developed, but I'm not biased Smiley  )  it's not worth arguing over.  All OS's suck in some way or another. 

Windows can be a security nightmare.  Linux, no matter how pretty a shell you put on it (barring the Mac and it's Mach kernel BSD bastard stepchild kernel) is still a geek's OS and just isn't suitable for anyone except the most sophisticated users OR the more unsophisticated users who can be trusted just to use the icons you set up for them. 

I run Linux at work.  I run XP at home because yes, I am a gamer and I can keep it stable and secure since I'm the only user.  If you like Linux, great.  If you can't stand it and you want to run Windows and like it, good for you.   I'll reiterate - each is great at some things, each sucks at others.   I cuss Linux at work regularly.  Almost as much as I cuss Windows.

Now, go argue something more productive like the merits of 9mm vs .45 or AR's vs AK's.   rolleyes
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2007, 03:40:28 AM »
Well, never retreat, I reckon all your hardware questions have been answered, right?

If Ron Paul were president we could all use Linux, or Windoze wouldn't suck! undecided
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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2007, 06:45:16 AM »
I still don't understand why Microsoft is so reviled, but then all I know about kernals is regular or extra crispy. And I can't tell a Linux from a Rhino Liner.  It seems to me that Microsoft stuff is the standard; it's what everybody uses in order to be compatible with everybody else.   Most non Microsoft apps are designed to be run on Microsoft based machines, correct?  And Office is the worldwide standard for its purpose, right?

I've worked in large corporate environments using Microsoft stuff that always worked flawlessly.  Problems and confusion reigned, however, when we added outside 'vertical market' software, such as Meditech or Lawson, to name a couple.  Then, high priced 'experts' had to be flown in, housed and fed for weeks on end in attempts to get the new thing up and running (mostly a process of hit or miss, IMO)

Phyphor

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2007, 07:09:43 AM »
I still don't understand why Microsoft is so reviled, but then all I know about kernals is regular or extra crispy. And I can't tell a Linux from a Rhino Liner.  It seems to me that Microsoft stuff is the standard; it's what everybody uses in order to be compatible with everybody else.   Most non Microsoft apps are designed to be run on Microsoft based machines, correct?  And Office is the worldwide standard for its purpose, right?
[/quotes]

It's standard mainly because of the marketing.  Remember when Windows 95 came out and people were buying it who didn't even own computers?
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You get your check, money gone.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2007, 07:16:07 AM »
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I still don't understand why Microsoft is so reviled, but then all I know about kernals is regular or extra crispy. And I can't tell a Linux from a Rhino Liner.  It seems to me that Microsoft stuff is the standard; it's what everybody uses in order to be compatible with everybody else.   Most non Microsoft apps are designed to be run on Microsoft based machines, correct?  And Office is the worldwide standard for its purpose, right?

I've worked in large corporate environments using Microsoft stuff that always worked flawlessly.  Problems and confusion reigned, however, when we added outside 'vertical market' software, such as Meditech or Lawson, to name a couple.  Then, high priced 'experts' had to be flown in, housed and fed for weeks on end in attempts to get the new thing up and running (mostly a process of hit or miss, IMO)

I'll admit right off the bat that I am about 3 years removed from this fight today, but MS used to suck.  Not so much anymore, although I can't stand Vista.  When MS bought Hotmail back in the late nineties, they attempted to remove the service from the Unix-based servers it initially ran on and put it on NT 4.0 boxes.  It crashed immediately; MS put it back on the Unix backbone until they had Win2K running sufficiently well to manage the traffic for Hotmail.

The entire backbone of the internet used to run almost exclusively on Unix based systems.  Linux, BSD, Solaris, whatever.

Not so much today.  Win2K/2003/Longhorn-08 are pretty tolerable for most tasks.  The one thing that MS still hasn't done well is VPN/Routing services... but Cisco is the king of that, not Linux/Unix.  Oh, I greatly dislike Microsoft-based DNS servers that use Active Directory integrated naming services.  I like honest BIND based DNS servers.  But I'm ornery.

Most net-admins dislike MS today due to licensing concerns.  When you're in a pinch and you have to rescue a PC that your retarded end user trashed, you end up reloading the machine and wrestling with various concerns over how Microsoft verifies its licensing.  It's a big PITA.

In regards to your big environments and specialists; specialists exist to fit special needs.  Your company probably was inefficient working with an older or less complicated software product.  They did a cost/benefit analysis and found that changing software would save them x man-hours a year.  Or they reached a technological threshold that made it impossible to scale the old system to growing demands.  After a certain point, small office networking becomes insanely costly.  Guys who make $120K or more are a bargain when you really need them.
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Phyphor

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2007, 10:53:19 AM »
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I still don't understand why Microsoft is so reviled, but then all I know about kernals is regular or extra crispy. And I can't tell a Linux from a Rhino Liner.  It seems to me that Microsoft stuff is the standard; it's what everybody uses in order to be compatible with everybody else.   Most non Microsoft apps are designed to be run on Microsoft based machines, correct?  And Office is the worldwide standard for its purpose, right?

I've worked in large corporate environments using Microsoft stuff that always worked flawlessly.  Problems and confusion reigned, however, when we added outside 'vertical market' software, such as Meditech or Lawson, to name a couple.  Then, high priced 'experts' had to be flown in, housed and fed for weeks on end in attempts to get the new thing up and running (mostly a process of hit or miss, IMO)

I'll admit right off the bat that I am about 3 years removed from this fight today, but MS used to suck.  Not so much anymore, although I can't stand Vista.  When MS bought Hotmail back in the late nineties, they attempted to remove the service from the Unix-based servers it initially ran on and put it on NT 4.0 boxes.  It crashed immediately; MS put it back on the Unix backbone until they had Win2K running sufficiently well to manage the traffic for Hotmail.

I remember that well.  I was a daily user of Hotmail back then, and rather liked how fast it was even on a dial-up.  Then MS got it.  It became..... unstable, to say the least.  Then MS made it completely UNUSABLE.



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The entire backbone of the internet used to run almost exclusively on Unix based systems.  Linux, BSD, Solaris, whatever.

Not so much today.  Win2K/2003/Longhorn-08 are pretty tolerable for most tasks.  The one thing that MS still hasn't done well is VPN/Routing services... but Cisco is the king of that, not Linux/Unix.  Oh, I greatly dislike Microsoft-based DNS servers that use Active Directory integrated naming services.  I like honest BIND based DNS servers.  But I'm ornery.

MS never really has understood the KISS principle, have they?


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Most net-admins dislike MS today due to licensing concerns.  When you're in a pinch and you have to rescue a PC that your retarded end user trashed, you end up reloading the machine and wrestling with various concerns over how Microsoft verifies its licensing.  It's a big PITA.

Yea, a cousin of mine had a XP pro machine.  He'd bought the XP-pro CD from Staples, and had been using XP for about a year, when it suddenly stopped working.  Kept bitching about 'invalid licensing.'  Turned out, it was phoning home and so it decided that his CD key was fake/stolen/whatever.

Took forever to get that one resolved through MS's 'support' phone line....and they were acting like he stole it.

So yea, not a fan of their licensing scheme myself.

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Brad Johnson

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2007, 11:48:17 AM »
Quote from: RileyMc
but then all I know about kernals is regular or extra crispy. And I can't tell a Linux from a Rhino Liner.

Now that's funny!  grin

Brad
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K Frame

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2007, 04:12:03 PM »
Gary Kildall developed the concept for CP/M independent of his work at DEC.

DEC COMPLETELY screwed the pooch by tying CP/M to the Rainbow, and Kildall screwed his personal pooch in negotiations with IBM over use of CP/M-86. One story goes that Kildall blew off IBM's negotiating team to go flying. He apparently stated that at one point, but there's at least several different versions of what actually happened.

The ONLY marginally redeeming aspect of the Crapbow was its keyboard. It was a WONDEROUS keyboard. At my peak I could type nearly 130 words a minute on one of them.

There's a lot of disagreement over whether Gates & Co. actually copied CP/M's structure, or whether they both were using structural processes that were descended from the first systems that broke out of the mainframe environment.
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JimMarch

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Re: another computer thread. New hardware help
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2007, 06:27:37 PM »
The practical differences between MS(PC)-DOS 1.0 and CP/M 2.2 were more or less non-existent from the user's perspective.

MS could address more than 64k of course but nobody HAD more than 64k at first.

The big thing was that MS-DOS 1.x didn't have a directory structure.  (That was a 2.0 feature with the IBM PC-XT and it's 10meg hard drive).  Neither did CP/M but the latter at least had "user areas" - in other words, a slew of different "cubbyholes" you could switch to.  Each was in parallel with the rest - there was no "hierarchy".  The whole directory idea was grafted in from Unix, yet they kept the drive letter concept for devices from CP/M.

Drive letters were just one similarity.  LPT: ports, COM: ports, all the same from CP/M.  I remember making the jump from CP/M to MS-DOS 1.x and it was basically "no learning curve".  The copy command worked better in MS-DOS (and now using Linux I can see the Unix origins), and batch files were a good thing (yet another Unix ripoff).