School Shooting at CT Elementary School

[SteveS]

I do think we need more crazy people control. It's going to come down to that, or banning guns totally. Either the rights of everyone will be violated, or we agree to violate the rights, if only temporarily, of the unconvicted mentally disturbed people out there.

There is some truth to this. I am no suggesting we lock up every mentally ill person, but this is the result of the deinstitutionalization that started in the late 70's. I have had plenty of clients that had frequent psychotic episodes. They would go to the hospital, get loaded up with meds, and get released a few days later.

The reality is that the treatment options for the severely mentally ill are pretty limited.

[MillCreek]

read an interview with a mom who was in conference with principle and school shrink when it started. said they left to investigate and were amongst the dead. hats off to them doing the right thing  shame they were denied tools needed to suceed

But that can't be!  As has been so often discussed on this board, all publik educashion staff are evil Statists who belong to unions, and they all graduated at the bottom of their class, I tell you what!   

[Fitz]

The problem of restricting firearms rights for "mentally Ill" persons is that I don think the government can be trusted to draw the line in an appropriate place. Additionally, that does nothing for the folks killed by people who aren't yet over that line

By many many people's standards, I'm mentally ill ... And that worries me when calls for "reasonable" mental health measures to be implemented

[SteveS]

What should be more intresting is that, despite the prevalence of such assisments and supposed understanding, we seem to have more such incidences of violent attacks like this rather then less. The advances in the feild of psycology don't seem to be relivent at all in the prevention of such crimes.

Having worked in the psych field I am going to question the assertion that a lot of people have gotten an extensive assessment.

The problem with psychological treatment is that it requires a lot of work. I had clients hat made progress and I had clients that didn't. The most gifted clinician in the world isn't going to be able to help someone that isn't interested in getting better. AFAIK, there are no treatments for psychopaths.

[Fitz]

Having worked in the psych field I am going to question the assertion that a lot of people have gotten an extensive assessment.

The problem with psychological treatment is that it requires a lot of work. I had clients hat made progress and I had clients that didn't. The most gifted clinician in the world isn't going to be able to help someone that isn't interested in getting better. AFAIK, there are no treatments for psychopaths.

Sure there are. High dose lead treatment to the brain.

[SteveS]

The problem of restricting firearms rights for "mentally Ill" persons is that I don think the government can be trusted to draw the line in an appropriate place. Additionally, that does nothing for the folks killed by people who aren't yet over that line

By many many people's standards, I'm mentally ill ... And that worries me when calls for "reasonable" mental health measures to be implemented

True. Michigan's CPL statute contains overly broad language in dealing with the mentally ill.

I don't know what the answer is.  Therapists don't always know if their clients are dangerous. I had a few that said things that required me to warn other people.  I also had a client murder one of his friends that completely surprised me. You can be damn sure that I replayed every conversation we had, trying to figure out of I should have predicted his actions.

[SteveS]

Sure there are. High dose lead treatment to the brain.

That'll do it.

[MillCreek]

According to the NYT, all three firearms used in the shooting were owned by Mrs. Lanza, killed by her son at her home, before he drove to her school and continued his murderous rampage.

[Hawkmoon]

I would guess the majority of people in this country have had some sort of treatment for metal illness.

Indeed this is true. I and several other people I know who shoot a lot indoors have been treated for high blood lead levels.

[RoadKingLarry]

Looks like SyFy channel pulled tonight's episode of Haven. Guide info said it was about murders at a High school reunion.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Having worked in the psych field I am going to question the assertion that a lot of people have gotten an extensive assessment.

The problem with psychological treatment is that it requires a lot of work. I had clients hat made progress and I had clients that didn't. The most gifted clinician in the world isn't going to be able to help someone that isn't interested in getting better. AFAIK, there are no treatments for psychopaths.

I think my point is similar to yours, sort of.

I'm trying to point out that the emphis on the fact that these people had been under treatment for mental illness is pointless and the resulting arguements for restricting gun ownership based on such treatments and medical history is fruitless.

Yes, we know these murders are nuttier then squirrel poop in a pistacio factory, but the health care workers still can't differenitiate between the nuts who will go on to do these things and the ones that won't.

Trying to anticipate what crazy people will do is, in of itself, crazy. As much as we do try to understand pyschology (and we should try), the practical applications of that knowledge under these circumstances are limited at best.

[AZRedhawk44]

Fistul and roo_ster might appreciate this angle:

What is the ratio of active Christian school schooters, versus atheist/agnostic school shooters?

[zxcvbob]

Fistul and roo_ster might appreciate this angle:

What is the ratio of active Christian school schooters, versus atheist/agnostic school shooters?

I give up, what is the ratio?

[Strings]

>What is the ratio of active Christian school schooters, versus atheist/agnostic school shooters?<

That would require having a decent definition of "Christian". And I have, at one point or another, heard every sect of Christianity called a "cult".

At the same time, if you use my definition ("Believes in Christ as the Savior and Son of God"), even Manson's Family would qualify...

[Perd Hapley]

It won't be the cults that muddy the waters. It will be the fact that so many of the "shooters" can be tied to some garden-variety religious group, be it ever so loosely. And chances are, this being the United States, that group will be Christian.

[BobR]

That'll do it.

IIRC, a high dose isn't even that necessary, as long as it is delivered witrh sufficient velocity. 

bob

[ArfinGreebly]

You know, there's a different approach from the "policing the crazies" idea.

We could try not manufacturing a culture of emo-psycho anti-social dingbats for starters.

'Course, that would mean doing something with the schools.  And that would mean changing the curriculum and methodologies.

Nah.

Let's just go get the guns.  Well, that, and add three more layers of Nerf and bubble wrap to the process of exercising constitutionally guaranteed rights.  And, while we're at it, maybe see if we can just do a blanket disqualification of some huge swathe of the population.  Oh, and the Spanish Inquisition.  Gotta have that.  Nobody expects that.

[birdman]

The problem of restricting firearms rights for "mentally Ill" persons is that I don think the government can be trusted to draw the line in an appropriate place. Additionally, that does nothing for the folks killed by people who aren't yet over that line

By many many people's standards, I'm mentally ill ... And that worries me when calls for "reasonable" mental health measures to be implemented

Looks like your POV has changed in two years.  :)

[seeker_two]

You can't  prevent evil....you can be prepared for when it comes to your door...

[Doggy Daddy]

I was just listening to an "authoritah" on Fox.  He says the shooter must have been planning this for a while, since he had so many evil hollow boolits.  And it would have taken a while to amass such a number of evil hollow boolits.  And the reason those hollow boolits are so evil is because they flower when they penetrate which is really bad for law enforcement peoples like him cuz they'll go right through a boolit proof vest.

The Fox crew was lapping up all this authoritahtive innerformations.

My head hurts like Hell right now!

[SteveS]

'Course, that would mean doing something with the schools.  And that would mean changing the curriculum and methodologies.

Nah.

Not that schools couldn't stand to be improved, but I would place the blame on parents for their own children...not schools, the internet, TV, or whatnot.  A lot of the disturbed kids I used to work with were dealing with divorce, abuse, and all sorts of other parental antics.  The schools aren't equipped to deal with this level of messed up, nor should they have to.

[Perd Hapley]

I was just listening to an "authoritah" on Fox.  He says the shooter must have been planning this for a while, since he had so many evil hollow boolits.  And it would have taken a while to amass such a number of evil hollow boolits.  And the reason those hollow boolits are so evil is because they flower when they penetrate which is really bad for law enforcement peoples like him cuz they'll go right through a boolit proof vest.

The Fox crew was lapping up all this authoritahtive innerformations.

My head hurts like Hell right now!

Thanks; mine hurts now, too.

[Fly320s]

According to Fox News the shooting was over in 3 minutes.  The police never had a chance to stop the psycho.

For those of you considering restricting firearms for the "mentally ill," are you also considering restricting their other fundamental rights?  Would you prevent them from having a computer, radio or TV?  Should they be prevented from voting? Can the police enter their home at any time for any reason?

[Fitz]

Looks like your POV has changed in two years.  :)

Yep

[lupinus]

According to Fox News the shooting was over in 3 minutes.  The police never had a chance to stop the psycho.

For those of you considering restricting firearms for the "mentally ill," are you also considering restricting their other fundamental rights?  Would you prevent them from having a computer, radio or TV?  Should they be prevented from voting? Can the police enter their home at any time for any reason?

Just like a criminal that's served his time and is safe enough to be out of prison should have all rights restored, mentally ill not sick enough to be committed should have full rights.

I don't trust the government at all with drawing a "reasonable" line.